which shows that majority of your perspective is taken from Audiophoolery sites
able Designer makes proper amp from whatever parts he wants and stumble on
That assumption would be incorrect (about where my perspective mostly originates from), because the perspective was arrived to by listening (limited and compared to yourself, probably would be fair to say extremely limited, but much more than the average audiophile) experience for the most part. I don't really exist on any audio websites other than this.
However, despite how much experience or skill or expertise etc people have in the field of audio I have learned so far only to trust my own ears pretty much, except maybe someone I know and trust audio-wise. This is not chemical design or another field with highly predictable and repeatable outcomes. I don't know what it is, but even very experienced people for some reason seem to have potatoes in ears and not just sometimes, but most of the time. It is a wonder.
Perhaps because of the spectrum of what's possible and what is acceptable to different folks is so unbelievably wide, perhaps for other reasons like the different ways in which our brains process the information. Not to question your authority or experience, sir, god bless. Thank you for the willingness to give your insight. Unfortunately, I do not have much of that myself, what I could add - I did. Thank you for being at least one voice opposing that. Enough of those from greats like you and I will have to reconsider it. Not because I am highly confident of my opinion here, but because I'm highly suspicious of those of others (when it comes to audio in general, this narrow aspect of SE vs PP falling under that umbrella). Selection of devices being unimportant for summit-fi audio (the scope of this topic) is another idea I do not agree with, and actually have much stronger of an opinion on, however I feel little/no need to share it, because there is no explanation or rationale I could provide except personal experience and I'm a nobody here, so of what use to anyone would that be? Just another rando claiming things about audio. Just mentioning it for entertainment 🙂. BTW PoP is the next Nelson based amp project I am most excited about! But I have my hands full right now.
However, despite how much experience or skill or expertise etc people have in the field of audio I have learned so far only to trust my own ears pretty much, except maybe someone I know and trust audio-wise. This is not chemical design or another field with highly predictable and repeatable outcomes. I don't know what it is, but even very experienced people for some reason seem to have potatoes in ears and not just sometimes, but most of the time. It is a wonder.
Perhaps because of the spectrum of what's possible and what is acceptable to different folks is so unbelievably wide, perhaps for other reasons like the different ways in which our brains process the information. Not to question your authority or experience, sir, god bless. Thank you for the willingness to give your insight. Unfortunately, I do not have much of that myself, what I could add - I did. Thank you for being at least one voice opposing that. Enough of those from greats like you and I will have to reconsider it. Not because I am highly confident of my opinion here, but because I'm highly suspicious of those of others (when it comes to audio in general, this narrow aspect of SE vs PP falling under that umbrella). Selection of devices being unimportant for summit-fi audio (the scope of this topic) is another idea I do not agree with, and actually have much stronger of an opinion on, however I feel little/no need to share it, because there is no explanation or rationale I could provide except personal experience and I'm a nobody here, so of what use to anyone would that be? Just another rando claiming things about audio. Just mentioning it for entertainment 🙂. BTW PoP is the next Nelson based amp project I am most excited about! But I have my hands full right now.
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far from that being even contemplated ......... what I meant is power of evidence, wonderful amplifiers made in all possible concepts and arrangements ..........
Wonderful is not what I meant. I said that the top would most likely be single ended. Again, just an opinion based on very limited research and experience compared to you, but that's just about the only insight I actually COULD offer (and provide limited rationale for) unlike many of you with more understanding, who could probably give many more insights. Thank you for opposing it. I find it valuable, even if it's not enough to change my intuition just yet 🙏🏻
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The rationale, to reiterate, was that two different devices especially with two different characters does not equal the clarity provided by one device with one character and especially at the output stage I think. Of course many variables come into play, but I'm talking about the possible best scenario. This is corroborated by my limited listening experience. Which is why I came up with the theory in the first place, not because I was sitting, fiddling with ideas.
Kind of like how the more stages you have the more sound compromises you usually have to make (bad analogy).
Not a great idea and immediately challenged as we can see, but just wanted to make myself clear. Other ideas I do have even if not many either, but not really anything I could provide a reasoning for.
And again, while I take the word of any member here over a typical audiophile, I would consider myself a rando in the context of this forum, and personally to me the opinion of randos in the field of audio even if corroborated by numbers is worth next to nothing. Thanks to you I am gaining more experience. If I build reputation at some point I may start making claims on that alone as well. Unfortunately for now the audio experience remains highly unrepeatable. But that's part of the fun, innit? A bit of mystery, a bit of having to learn stuff on your own and the multitude of perspectives afforded by that, which ultimately enriches all of us. Like if an internal combustion engine or an aeroplane had to be developed by every individual that wanted to make HP or to fly, with only vague general guidelines and off the shelf products offered universally, the secrets mostly transmitted by word of mouth. Isn't audio something like that? In my experience it kind of has been. A lot of it is shrouded in mystery.
Not at all like automotive engineering for individuals seeking driving experience (still subjective). Let alone something like chemical engineering (for individuals seeking to synthesize substances), which if you do it right, will get you repeatable results between individuals carrying out the experiments - every time.
Kind of like how the more stages you have the more sound compromises you usually have to make (bad analogy).
Not a great idea and immediately challenged as we can see, but just wanted to make myself clear. Other ideas I do have even if not many either, but not really anything I could provide a reasoning for.
And again, while I take the word of any member here over a typical audiophile, I would consider myself a rando in the context of this forum, and personally to me the opinion of randos in the field of audio even if corroborated by numbers is worth next to nothing. Thanks to you I am gaining more experience. If I build reputation at some point I may start making claims on that alone as well. Unfortunately for now the audio experience remains highly unrepeatable. But that's part of the fun, innit? A bit of mystery, a bit of having to learn stuff on your own and the multitude of perspectives afforded by that, which ultimately enriches all of us. Like if an internal combustion engine or an aeroplane had to be developed by every individual that wanted to make HP or to fly, with only vague general guidelines and off the shelf products offered universally, the secrets mostly transmitted by word of mouth. Isn't audio something like that? In my experience it kind of has been. A lot of it is shrouded in mystery.
Not at all like automotive engineering for individuals seeking driving experience (still subjective). Let alone something like chemical engineering (for individuals seeking to synthesize substances), which if you do it right, will get you repeatable results between individuals carrying out the experiments - every time.
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well, if SE stays preferred choice, Warbler is not bad example ....... and it has Iron in it, my fave ingredient
Maybe we need quadruple, or nth duple, drive.
Where we assigned different voltage levels... sort of like STASIS but not by modifying the bias but by enabling different levels of the OP that are biased at different points.
So, let's say we have a Hi+, Lo+, Lo- and Hi- sections. I think it was Class H?
The 70s and 80s were so much fun... then Red Book and that noise they call music today hit the scene... Things got boring and corporate.
The last 15 years got somewhat interesting as this Wild And Crazy Guy From Czechoslovakia, err... Serbia came along... edging that hippy from NorCal.
Alek: Nelson, do you think those American Babes want a single ended SIT or a push pull VFET?
Nelson: Hmm.. I think they all like 2nd order negative harmonic distortion... Pass me that bottle of Cabernet...
Alek: We're just a bunch of wild and crazy audio kind of guys...
Note: I gotta get me one of them hats. I figure they will help the soundsgate... The gold chains are definitely a nice coupe de grace.
Where we assigned different voltage levels... sort of like STASIS but not by modifying the bias but by enabling different levels of the OP that are biased at different points.
So, let's say we have a Hi+, Lo+, Lo- and Hi- sections. I think it was Class H?
The 70s and 80s were so much fun... then Red Book and that noise they call music today hit the scene... Things got boring and corporate.
The last 15 years got somewhat interesting as this Wild And Crazy Guy From Czechoslovakia, err... Serbia came along... edging that hippy from NorCal.
Alek: Nelson, do you think those American Babes want a single ended SIT or a push pull VFET?
Nelson: Hmm.. I think they all like 2nd order negative harmonic distortion... Pass me that bottle of Cabernet...
Alek: We're just a bunch of wild and crazy audio kind of guys...
Note: I gotta get me one of them hats. I figure they will help the soundsgate... The gold chains are definitely a nice coupe de grace.
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I think the Courvoisier and the F4 are the best. The first ain't bad, gets the ladies happy and it fits the idea of an Upscale Bachelor pad.
You know, shag rug, Pioneer 949, Teac 3340, JBL L100 with the orange foam cover.... some nice George Benson in glorious quad.... Dang it... I always wanted to grow up to own one such pad... Loggins and Messina, Live! is all I ever got.
But the Alephs have a sound of their own. Beguiling.
More like the Valley Girls we were meeting in '82 at the Seven Seas on Hollywood Blvd. "Oh, you're from Santa Barbara, is that like North of Reseda? Is that an Aleph in your pocket? Wow... like gag me with a spoon, y'know?" (*)
Do you want a clear wire with drive or do you want some coloration?
Do you want your foxes au naturel or with Big Tremendous Tatas from Dr Bardakjian in Glendale?
(*) Well, she didn't know where Santa Barbara was, but she said she had a BMW... and she had ID that said she was over 21. I forget the color of her eyes. Our first weekend on '82/'83 New Year's Eve in Santa Madre was... magnificent. Truly magnificent. We missed the Rose Bowl Parade.
You know, shag rug, Pioneer 949, Teac 3340, JBL L100 with the orange foam cover.... some nice George Benson in glorious quad.... Dang it... I always wanted to grow up to own one such pad... Loggins and Messina, Live! is all I ever got.
But the Alephs have a sound of their own. Beguiling.
More like the Valley Girls we were meeting in '82 at the Seven Seas on Hollywood Blvd. "Oh, you're from Santa Barbara, is that like North of Reseda? Is that an Aleph in your pocket? Wow... like gag me with a spoon, y'know?" (*)
Do you want a clear wire with drive or do you want some coloration?
Do you want your foxes au naturel or with Big Tremendous Tatas from Dr Bardakjian in Glendale?
(*) Well, she didn't know where Santa Barbara was, but she said she had a BMW... and she had ID that said she was over 21. I forget the color of her eyes. Our first weekend on '82/'83 New Year's Eve in Santa Madre was... magnificent. Truly magnificent. We missed the Rose Bowl Parade.
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Well, we simply has to decide for our self what ”transparent highs” really means.
And if we want just THAT?
And. Do you really always wanna hear how disastriously, horrificly bad a lot of the older recording sounds, and was recorded and mixed? With ridicously weak bass and treble, and with a low res screaming midrange.
Is the sound of treble in actual live reality cold and hard, soft and warm, or smooth, or nice, or aggressive, or sissling like a happy frying pan?
How does a accoustic guitar really sound?
Cold, thin, small, weak and harsh?
Not really…
And so on.
🎺🙂🎸
And if we want just THAT?
And. Do you really always wanna hear how disastriously, horrificly bad a lot of the older recording sounds, and was recorded and mixed? With ridicously weak bass and treble, and with a low res screaming midrange.
Is the sound of treble in actual live reality cold and hard, soft and warm, or smooth, or nice, or aggressive, or sissling like a happy frying pan?
How does a accoustic guitar really sound?
Cold, thin, small, weak and harsh?
Not really…
And so on.
🎺🙂🎸
Of course many recordings aren't great, but yes, for the purpose of the discussion I would rather hear it. For the purpose of this discussion, electronics eating up the sound would not be the solution to this problem.
And there are many characters we can impart on the sound with the electronics, but what I was really looking for was a lack of veil. A transparency, detail, ALIVENESS, energeticness to the sound. That can be cold, that can be warm, but the amplifier will not be choking the sound or hiding it or introducing unnecessary barriers between you and the sound. Softness could be construed as character rather than a barrier, rather than a veil, but I think it's harder to preserve the edges (without roughness if it's not in the recording) than it is to smother or smooth out the sound. However even a softer and a warmer sound can be extremely present, alive, detailed and without veil, so can't say that that necessarily construes a veil. And in my experience, even very high harmonic distortion is not indicative of a veil. Think of it like changing average cables to very good silver cables. Has no effect on distortion, yet a massive hearable difference and change in clarity and insight, lifelikeness, presence...
And there are many characters we can impart on the sound with the electronics, but what I was really looking for was a lack of veil. A transparency, detail, ALIVENESS, energeticness to the sound. That can be cold, that can be warm, but the amplifier will not be choking the sound or hiding it or introducing unnecessary barriers between you and the sound. Softness could be construed as character rather than a barrier, rather than a veil, but I think it's harder to preserve the edges (without roughness if it's not in the recording) than it is to smother or smooth out the sound. However even a softer and a warmer sound can be extremely present, alive, detailed and without veil, so can't say that that necessarily construes a veil. And in my experience, even very high harmonic distortion is not indicative of a veil. Think of it like changing average cables to very good silver cables. Has no effect on distortion, yet a massive hearable difference and change in clarity and insight, lifelikeness, presence...
Sounds to me like you want tubes or an Aleph.
The SIT sounds excellent, but not enough power for full range, except that it will blow your mind at lower levels.
One of my projects is to use a SIT to drive some power capacitors as inputs to an F4, SE. Work gets in the way...
And don't forget the Courvoisier.
It's not that I like distortion, it's just I think it's far from the worst things that can happen to music.
That is very interesting. Please create a thread and post a link here if you ever feel more serious about the idea. Even if you're not going to do it, perhaps someone else has some input or decides to do it themselves.
Speaking of, did y'all see the movie Down With Love?
