Yeeeepppp. A magnet lifts and suspends it. It's magnetic levitation. Sure, there is a guide post, but it still floats. Nothing mechanical lifts it. That's levitation.
That's your own, private definition. To me, magnetic levitation implies no other interaction but through magnetic field. If you want to consider an anchored satellitte as a "satellitte", that's your option.
Given the amount of friction that happens on the inverted ball bearing, compared to the shaft sleeve, I fail to understand what's the buzz about the Verdier TT "magnetic levitation". Appears to me just as a differentiator gimmick. Yes, I have no respect for such gimmicks, disregarding their age and reputation.
But of course that's not magnetic levitation. OK....
I don't care about your respect or opinion of the Verdier - if you have not used and heard one numerous times. I have. You may label it a "gimmick" if you wish, that does not change the fact that it is a superb turntable. Or change the fact that magnets float the platter. 😛
I couldn't care less, or respect, your opinion too, so I call it even. I don't even care to ask where is this "superb" attribute coming from, although I may guess it's based on reputation, rather than on any serious metric. About as valuable as any other name dropping, and/or, for that amount of money, can't be anything else but "superb".
Call that as everybody else does, "magnetic suspension" and look into your car. You may have one, they missed calling it "magnetic levitation shock absorbers", what a lost opportunity to promote it as the best thing since sliced bread.
I get it, you've never seen or heard one live. Your opinion of the Verdier is not based on fact or direct experience. Good to know. 
Just buy a rod of the material (Teflon / Delrin) and have it machined to size.
I don't know if you can get molded disks of the material, so many sizes are needed, due to model and maker versions.
I don't know if you can get molded disks of the material, so many sizes are needed, due to model and maker versions.
Levitation, suspension, those are semantics here, the basic fact is that the platter is in a low friction supporting set up, so there will be less rumble from the bearings.
However, the guide will still be a noise source.
How noisy is the question.
Air bearing will be even more lower friction source, but you need a continuous air supply....possibly a refrigerator compressor can be used, or a small blower....
Choices, choices.....
However, the guide will still be a noise source.
How noisy is the question.
Air bearing will be even more lower friction source, but you need a continuous air supply....possibly a refrigerator compressor can be used, or a small blower....
Choices, choices.....
Oh, so you have used or heard the Verdier TT? That's different then. You didn't care for it, or just didn't find it worthwhile?
Have you seen any of it here?
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/turntable-bearing-ball-source.384286/post-6973891
It looks like you haven't seen a proper direct drive japanese turntable of the 70's yet...they used to have such tolerances in the motor shaft and sleeve in mass production.Today you can only see it only in high grade cnc machines...so turntable manufacturers ask premium prices for what they used to sell by the number of millions of units in the 70's.
The 70's saw such air bearing turntables with first hybrid carbon fiber aluminium tonearms too in mass production for less than 500 bucks ...
Just the fact that we are living the 21st century to see imperialists rise makes me think we should take a leap back in the 19th century technology cause it looks like we missed an entire evolution line...
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The 50...70's mass production technology is now sold as premium technology for premium money just because nobody does it by millions anymore.
Mechanical watches are a very well known example.Just open one made 70..90 years ago by a company who sold at least 50...200 million pieces of one model and watch it under a microscope! You'll see 0.1mm machined gears, rubys and other parts with 0.2...0.5 micron tolerance .
Big companies used to make perfect direct drive motors for 1.5kg platters with one order of magnitude less rumble than a high endish 50kg magnesium platter system turntable .Even the poles used to make tonearms rolling on tungsten carbide bearings in the 80's ... Looking at this anachronical world I'm living in I only regret of not being dead in 2022 and having lived the 70's to the fullest.
Mechanical watches are a very well known example.Just open one made 70..90 years ago by a company who sold at least 50...200 million pieces of one model and watch it under a microscope! You'll see 0.1mm machined gears, rubys and other parts with 0.2...0.5 micron tolerance .
Big companies used to make perfect direct drive motors for 1.5kg platters with one order of magnitude less rumble than a high endish 50kg magnesium platter system turntable .Even the poles used to make tonearms rolling on tungsten carbide bearings in the 80's ... Looking at this anachronical world I'm living in I only regret of not being dead in 2022 and having lived the 70's to the fullest.
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The OP has inquired about Options on Ball Bearing and if the use of a Steel Ball that they are selecting is their best choice.
A condition was made known that is bordering on being an extreme condition that can occur if a Steel Ball is used within a Bearing Assembly,
the reference that is pasted below does have a paragraph that suggests that the Bearing Environment on a TT may not be able to produce such a condition.
The impact of the Welding occurring is that 'pitting can be produced' on the metal surfaces.
As the pitting is now showing as a surface imperfection and the imperfection is most likely to be at a shared location on the opposing surfaces and these two imperfections that will most likely come into contact, as a result of Poor Hydrodynamic Lubrication or a Boundary effect Lubrication having manifested.
There is then the likelihood that increased noise is the outcome, that is most likely going to reduce the effectiveness of the Bearing and impart unwanted energies toward the Stylus.
The question that is a unknown is that the environment within a Bearing Housing, and the rotations of the Spindle might not be able to cause the conditions under discussion, but the conditions are encountered by a Bearing and these conditions can occur in a Bearing Assembly.
With these considerations in mind, a 'Prevention is better than Cure' approach of thoughts on the subject will be a good practice.
My experiences of researching and inspecting the parts contained within a Bearing Housing belonging to Idler Drive and DD from a Selection of Vintage Models, is that wear can be detected on the metal sacrificial parts, which is the most concerning and the Thrust Pad can be seen to have wear and deep indentation and there are evidence available of a ellipse form to a indentation.
A Steel Ball has been found with a scoring on the surface, the concern is, the material that is removed through the process of creating the scoring is now contained within the bearing housing and can be functioning as an unwanted abrasive.
Sintered Bronze Bush Liners have shown signs of inner wall wear, one simple method of detecting a wear is to check the Platter Spindle to see if a movement of the Spindle can be detected. If there is a detected movement, applying pressure to the spindle around the Clock Face, can offer up a detected movement that feels increased in one particular direction.
If a detection of movement is discovered, the Bush Liner will most likely show on inspection, a loss of roundness to the inner wall, and when the wear is noticeable, a Spindle will take on an Eccentric Rotation, which is most likely the cause of the ellipse indentation manifesting in the Thrust Pad.
Another unwanted condition that can occur from an eccentric rotation, is that a independent mounted speed strobe will show a Speed Fluctuation as a result of the rotation taking place.
Further investigation of the internals of the bearing housing, when Sintered Bronze Bush Liners have been used, is that Gold Coloured Dust particles has also be collected on a wadded probe that has been put into the shaft
The gold dust has been suspected to be the worn bush liner metal that is now a metallic artefact contained within the bearing housing and has a new role of being an unwanted abrasive material.
The gold dust is much easier to detect than a artefact that might be present from a scored steel ball.
How the steel ball can score is another mystery, could it be a result of welding and pitting occurring, or another abrasive being responsible?
My thoughts on how these conditions can occur is that Hydrodynamic Lubrication has not been created, or attempted to be created but the viscosity of the chosen lubricant failed in the condition being maintained, either way there is a period of usage where the assembled parts within the bearing housing are most likely interfacing with metal to metal contact, and a Vintage TT will probably have endured a long period of this occurring.
A condition was made known that is bordering on being an extreme condition that can occur if a Steel Ball is used within a Bearing Assembly,
the reference that is pasted below does have a paragraph that suggests that the Bearing Environment on a TT may not be able to produce such a condition.
The impact of the Welding occurring is that 'pitting can be produced' on the metal surfaces.
As the pitting is now showing as a surface imperfection and the imperfection is most likely to be at a shared location on the opposing surfaces and these two imperfections that will most likely come into contact, as a result of Poor Hydrodynamic Lubrication or a Boundary effect Lubrication having manifested.
There is then the likelihood that increased noise is the outcome, that is most likely going to reduce the effectiveness of the Bearing and impart unwanted energies toward the Stylus.
The question that is a unknown is that the environment within a Bearing Housing, and the rotations of the Spindle might not be able to cause the conditions under discussion, but the conditions are encountered by a Bearing and these conditions can occur in a Bearing Assembly.
With these considerations in mind, a 'Prevention is better than Cure' approach of thoughts on the subject will be a good practice.
My experiences of researching and inspecting the parts contained within a Bearing Housing belonging to Idler Drive and DD from a Selection of Vintage Models, is that wear can be detected on the metal sacrificial parts, which is the most concerning and the Thrust Pad can be seen to have wear and deep indentation and there are evidence available of a ellipse form to a indentation.
A Steel Ball has been found with a scoring on the surface, the concern is, the material that is removed through the process of creating the scoring is now contained within the bearing housing and can be functioning as an unwanted abrasive.
Sintered Bronze Bush Liners have shown signs of inner wall wear, one simple method of detecting a wear is to check the Platter Spindle to see if a movement of the Spindle can be detected. If there is a detected movement, applying pressure to the spindle around the Clock Face, can offer up a detected movement that feels increased in one particular direction.
If a detection of movement is discovered, the Bush Liner will most likely show on inspection, a loss of roundness to the inner wall, and when the wear is noticeable, a Spindle will take on an Eccentric Rotation, which is most likely the cause of the ellipse indentation manifesting in the Thrust Pad.
Another unwanted condition that can occur from an eccentric rotation, is that a independent mounted speed strobe will show a Speed Fluctuation as a result of the rotation taking place.
Further investigation of the internals of the bearing housing, when Sintered Bronze Bush Liners have been used, is that Gold Coloured Dust particles has also be collected on a wadded probe that has been put into the shaft
The gold dust has been suspected to be the worn bush liner metal that is now a metallic artefact contained within the bearing housing and has a new role of being an unwanted abrasive material.
The gold dust is much easier to detect than a artefact that might be present from a scored steel ball.
How the steel ball can score is another mystery, could it be a result of welding and pitting occurring, or another abrasive being responsible?
My thoughts on how these conditions can occur is that Hydrodynamic Lubrication has not been created, or attempted to be created but the viscosity of the chosen lubricant failed in the condition being maintained, either way there is a period of usage where the assembled parts within the bearing housing are most likely interfacing with metal to metal contact, and a Vintage TT will probably have endured a long period of this occurring.
Simple.
Old dried grease.
Many TT were scrapped or dumped in the attic, and put to use much later.
Grease is oil mixed with metal soap, which attracts moisture after oil dries out.
Means RUST.
So a normal clean and grease will work.
And a low speed machine, intended to be sold cheaply, would not be built as well as a more expensive machine.
You are talking about two cups, with a ball between then, and a guide sleeve.
Bicycle quality stuff, not motorcycle quality.
Old dried grease.
Many TT were scrapped or dumped in the attic, and put to use much later.
Grease is oil mixed with metal soap, which attracts moisture after oil dries out.
Means RUST.
So a normal clean and grease will work.
And a low speed machine, intended to be sold cheaply, would not be built as well as a more expensive machine.
You are talking about two cups, with a ball between then, and a guide sleeve.
Bicycle quality stuff, not motorcycle quality.
The steel balls inside the cup and cone rear hub of a bike usually works for years with about 30...40 kg of weight on them at higher speeds than 33rpm...
I have no idea where this discussion leads to but trying to make a case for Webb telescope like technology needed in a turntable actually shows the lack of proportions and critical thinking.
Turntables passed -80db SNR 40 years ago.
When trying to increase the rumble reduction of the turntable you shouldn't forget that the cutter lathes had their own rumble that will last forever in their master laquer to which all copies stay true...so you will never be able to get lower rumble than what a Neumann, Rec-o-cut , Ortophon or Scully lathe could give you...
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For this type of thrust bearing ie a ball bearing on a flat surface (usually the end of the shaft), the type of lubricant is important we think. We use fully synthetic motor oil with has a high level of
extreme pressure lubricant additive ( I think its a zinc phosphate compound called zddp ). In auto use its there to prevent wear on such things as camshafts where there are high
point loads. In the turntable case its the actual contact point of the ball on the shaft. The actual oil viscosity is chosen to suit the main bearing.
extreme pressure lubricant additive ( I think its a zinc phosphate compound called zddp ). In auto use its there to prevent wear on such things as camshafts where there are high
point loads. In the turntable case its the actual contact point of the ball on the shaft. The actual oil viscosity is chosen to suit the main bearing.
I prefer to use front axle grease in such cases. It has high temperature and pressure properties.
Oil needs a submerged bearing, or a circulating pump.
Oil needs a submerged bearing, or a circulating pump.
The discussion leads to the concerns for a transfer of energies to the Stylus, where the energies from within the bearing operation are impacting on the stylus and is producing a distortion that is audible, or the stylus having a seating in a groove that is having a lateral movement combined with the rotation.
There are numerous discussions about the importance of the setting up of a stylus in a groove and the critical geometries for the Stylus and environment within the groove to be created to receive maximum benefit from the Cartridge alignment with the intention to minimise distortions.
Even the Tonearm length is classed as a factor for contributing to distortions being produced by a Stylus when in the groove.
I have yet to see a calculation produced that includes compensation for a lateral movement of a LP, that is attached to a Spindle that has developed an unwanted eccentric rotation.
It is well known that a stylus is exposed to a variance of energies being transferred to it, and most measures used to protect the stylus from exposure to such energies are to protect it from the ambient environment, and not from the mechanics of the TT, most assume this is an optimised mechanical interface and the environment is correctly assembled for the benefit of the Cartridge to function accurately.
A Platter and LP that is attached to a Spindle that is having an eccentric rotation will have an impact on how the stylus is interfacing within the groove, where the likelihood is that unwanted distortion is to be produced and the distortion will become audible.
If a person has a sought after model of a Vintage TT, with a unknown history, that could add up to a substantial history of usage and rotations.
The result is most likely that a non ideal condition of a Bearing Assembly is present, especially if a service is not known to have taken place.
Add a very expensive Tonearm and Cartridge to a TT with a bearing assembly that has not got an optimised functioning condition.
A condition that has produced a metal particle that is an abrasive and has the potential for creating a grinding within the bearing housing, as a result of metal artefacts having developed.
Additionally one, that has a developed a spindle that has an eccentric rotation, as a result of the wearing of parts through metal to metal contact occurring.
The expensive cost of the supporting ancillaries starts to seem quite wasteful as a purchase, as the environment they are used in, is not optimised to allow them to perform at their very best, and the parts are being compromised.
I do not believe the Manufacturers Design Intent for a Tonearm or Cartridge, is for it to be in used as an ancillary working with a TT, that has a Platter Spindle Bearing that has a concerning deficiency for the mechanical operation.
If challenged about the ideal condition of use, I feel the intent was for bearing assembly on a TT that has a .0001 - .0003, allowed for the machining as the tolerances.
I am sure there are owners of such ancillaries that do have there expensive parts attached to TT's with such deficiencies in place on a platter bearing assembly, and are not getting the performance that their ancillary parts are designed to deliver, hence the pride of ownership and enjoyment of the replays might be dominant, but the design showing it best may not be present.
Even though I do not believe a TT Manufacturer has the platter bearing assembly as the sole part for assessment and producing the SNR ??db for their product, I also do not believe the TT Models they will have measured when producing their ??db SNR will have had bearing assembly in a condition that is not relating to those referred to above.
I myself see the TT bearing housing assembly as a very basic design and in most cases the bearing housing is designed around housing mass produced 'off the shelf' sacrificial parts, with a Bespoke Produced Spindle to work with sacrificial parts.
These designs might have been ideal for a TT from many years in the past, that was to have a $80 (£60) Cartridge and a $130 (£90) Tonearm, as the ancillary parts, such ancillary parts, will have had design constraints that did not allow for the ancillary parts to show any weaknesses in a bearing assembly that has been relatively new when in use, possibly lubricated and possibly showing no signs of wear or spindle movement.
Wind the clock on 30 Years, the same TT's and bearing assemblies are in remaining in use, are are popular to the point the TT's are seen matched with a modern design for a Tonearm and Cartridge with a combined value of $5000 (£3800), this is not too uncommon to see.
As a combination the Tonearm > Cart' pairing working in conjunction, are able to detect the minutest of distortions within a groove and can evven present a range of these distortions as an audible sound.
The idea of spending a little thought and additional money on the bearing housing assembly starts to make a little more sense and if the desire is followed through to make such changes, the benefits received from the venture will be quite noticeable, especially when the Tonearm > Cart' is of a well thought out modern design.
There are numerous discussions about the importance of the setting up of a stylus in a groove and the critical geometries for the Stylus and environment within the groove to be created to receive maximum benefit from the Cartridge alignment with the intention to minimise distortions.
Even the Tonearm length is classed as a factor for contributing to distortions being produced by a Stylus when in the groove.
I have yet to see a calculation produced that includes compensation for a lateral movement of a LP, that is attached to a Spindle that has developed an unwanted eccentric rotation.
It is well known that a stylus is exposed to a variance of energies being transferred to it, and most measures used to protect the stylus from exposure to such energies are to protect it from the ambient environment, and not from the mechanics of the TT, most assume this is an optimised mechanical interface and the environment is correctly assembled for the benefit of the Cartridge to function accurately.
A Platter and LP that is attached to a Spindle that is having an eccentric rotation will have an impact on how the stylus is interfacing within the groove, where the likelihood is that unwanted distortion is to be produced and the distortion will become audible.
If a person has a sought after model of a Vintage TT, with a unknown history, that could add up to a substantial history of usage and rotations.
The result is most likely that a non ideal condition of a Bearing Assembly is present, especially if a service is not known to have taken place.
Add a very expensive Tonearm and Cartridge to a TT with a bearing assembly that has not got an optimised functioning condition.
A condition that has produced a metal particle that is an abrasive and has the potential for creating a grinding within the bearing housing, as a result of metal artefacts having developed.
Additionally one, that has a developed a spindle that has an eccentric rotation, as a result of the wearing of parts through metal to metal contact occurring.
The expensive cost of the supporting ancillaries starts to seem quite wasteful as a purchase, as the environment they are used in, is not optimised to allow them to perform at their very best, and the parts are being compromised.
I do not believe the Manufacturers Design Intent for a Tonearm or Cartridge, is for it to be in used as an ancillary working with a TT, that has a Platter Spindle Bearing that has a concerning deficiency for the mechanical operation.
If challenged about the ideal condition of use, I feel the intent was for bearing assembly on a TT that has a .0001 - .0003, allowed for the machining as the tolerances.
I am sure there are owners of such ancillaries that do have there expensive parts attached to TT's with such deficiencies in place on a platter bearing assembly, and are not getting the performance that their ancillary parts are designed to deliver, hence the pride of ownership and enjoyment of the replays might be dominant, but the design showing it best may not be present.
Even though I do not believe a TT Manufacturer has the platter bearing assembly as the sole part for assessment and producing the SNR ??db for their product, I also do not believe the TT Models they will have measured when producing their ??db SNR will have had bearing assembly in a condition that is not relating to those referred to above.
I myself see the TT bearing housing assembly as a very basic design and in most cases the bearing housing is designed around housing mass produced 'off the shelf' sacrificial parts, with a Bespoke Produced Spindle to work with sacrificial parts.
These designs might have been ideal for a TT from many years in the past, that was to have a $80 (£60) Cartridge and a $130 (£90) Tonearm, as the ancillary parts, such ancillary parts, will have had design constraints that did not allow for the ancillary parts to show any weaknesses in a bearing assembly that has been relatively new when in use, possibly lubricated and possibly showing no signs of wear or spindle movement.
Wind the clock on 30 Years, the same TT's and bearing assemblies are in remaining in use, are are popular to the point the TT's are seen matched with a modern design for a Tonearm and Cartridge with a combined value of $5000 (£3800), this is not too uncommon to see.
As a combination the Tonearm > Cart' pairing working in conjunction, are able to detect the minutest of distortions within a groove and can evven present a range of these distortions as an audible sound.
The idea of spending a little thought and additional money on the bearing housing assembly starts to make a little more sense and if the desire is followed through to make such changes, the benefits received from the venture will be quite noticeable, especially when the Tonearm > Cart' is of a well thought out modern design.
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