Thanks Arjen, i can tell bass is fuller now, although listening is limited due to time of day and wife's music taste, so i may be even more excited some time tomorrow.
I was wondering, i soldered the caps straight on to the power supply jack as in your image, shouldn't i solder it behind the switch, so the caps are not always under power? Or can i forget worrying about that?
Thanks,
Daniel
I was wondering, i soldered the caps straight on to the power supply jack as in your image, shouldn't i solder it behind the switch, so the caps are not always under power? Or can i forget worrying about that?
Thanks,
Daniel
Speakers and such
Hi there Daniel,
Nope really doesnt matter! no worries.
Jeroen,
There are not so many cheap good speakers, there is some good stuff in the high end market but then things are getting spendy again. im designing some nice Transmissionlines now with 2X 4inch fullrange drivers. good drivers can be found in China.
ill show the results when thats done, but im sure it will take another couple of months since im crazy busy at work these days.
Th other issue is shipping cost, a good speaker waighs quite a bit, so to use TNT to ship that, is going to cos as much as the speaker iself.
in holland there is Crafty, a friend of mine designing very good speakers. maybe you want to check his stuff?
Greetings,
Arjen Helder
Hi there Daniel,
Nope really doesnt matter! no worries.
Jeroen,
There are not so many cheap good speakers, there is some good stuff in the high end market but then things are getting spendy again. im designing some nice Transmissionlines now with 2X 4inch fullrange drivers. good drivers can be found in China.
ill show the results when thats done, but im sure it will take another couple of months since im crazy busy at work these days.
Th other issue is shipping cost, a good speaker waighs quite a bit, so to use TNT to ship that, is going to cos as much as the speaker iself.
in holland there is Crafty, a friend of mine designing very good speakers. maybe you want to check his stuff?
Greetings,
Arjen Helder
Note........
Any replacement of component and circuitries by DIY will be change the performance of this amp(TP10 / TP20), it is not absolutely to upgrade the sound effect, because we have design in balance with precision test in 12V5A DC power supply condition, so that a 12V DC power supply which is more than 5A is require for working perfectly.
csdam
Topping design group
Any replacement of component and circuitries by DIY will be change the performance of this amp(TP10 / TP20), it is not absolutely to upgrade the sound effect, because we have design in balance with precision test in 12V5A DC power supply condition, so that a 12V DC power supply which is more than 5A is require for working perfectly.
csdam
Topping design group
Topping mods
Hi there Topping Guy's!
Nice of you to join this discussion!
First of all, i would like to explain why i think its usefull to add some capacitors, later today i want to post the scope readings aswell. to show the efffect it has.
Since the powersupply has a cable of say 1,5 meter, plus a connector plug, plus a switch all in the powerline, plus the PCB tracks, it has quite some resistance, especially at power peaks.
If you measure at the IC's 12 volt lines you can see that the voltage is not as stable. with every beat it can drop as much as 1 volt. this means that when the IC needs the power most, it has less power available.
I have measured this by connecting my probe to the 2 power input leads of the IC while the amp is playing at medium volume at 13.5 volts.
adding extra capacitors to the power line after the switch and the connector means that the ESR is dropped significantly, and therefore the drop in voltage over the power pins is also dropped allot, to about 100-200 mV max.
This results in to a tighter bass response, somthing witch is not just measurable with my THD meter at 120 HZ but also clearly hearable to most. ( unlike allot of those input capacitor mods, witch are spendy but without measurable results. )
I hope you appriciate the fact that other people enjoy your products and start finding way's to make it even better!
Right now Topping makes the nicest fully finished amps, so i think everyone is waiting to see what the future will bring.
Greetings!
Arjen Helder
PS:
Added is the photo of the Modded amp. ive also changed Blue for a yellow- golden color of light.
Hi there Topping Guy's!
Nice of you to join this discussion!
First of all, i would like to explain why i think its usefull to add some capacitors, later today i want to post the scope readings aswell. to show the efffect it has.
Since the powersupply has a cable of say 1,5 meter, plus a connector plug, plus a switch all in the powerline, plus the PCB tracks, it has quite some resistance, especially at power peaks.
If you measure at the IC's 12 volt lines you can see that the voltage is not as stable. with every beat it can drop as much as 1 volt. this means that when the IC needs the power most, it has less power available.
I have measured this by connecting my probe to the 2 power input leads of the IC while the amp is playing at medium volume at 13.5 volts.
adding extra capacitors to the power line after the switch and the connector means that the ESR is dropped significantly, and therefore the drop in voltage over the power pins is also dropped allot, to about 100-200 mV max.
This results in to a tighter bass response, somthing witch is not just measurable with my THD meter at 120 HZ but also clearly hearable to most. ( unlike allot of those input capacitor mods, witch are spendy but without measurable results. )
I hope you appriciate the fact that other people enjoy your products and start finding way's to make it even better!
Right now Topping makes the nicest fully finished amps, so i think everyone is waiting to see what the future will bring.
Greetings!
Arjen Helder
PS:
Added is the photo of the Modded amp. ive also changed Blue for a yellow- golden color of light.
Attachments
I am very new to Class D amp and to this forum. In fact, this is my first post to the forum and I must start by thanking many great people on this forum for sharing valuable information.
After having read good things about TA2020 based amps and good reputation about Arjen, I have recently ordered a Topping TP20 from Arjen including his modification. The unit seems to be on its way out of Hong Kong post office and I am expecting to receive it soon.
I was hoping that my existing PSU rated at 12V 3A that came with my old Yamaha CD writer will do the job but then I see the post by the "Topping Design Group" talking about 12V 5A and if I remember correctly Arjen recommended 14V to me.
Will my existing PSU rated at 12V 3A have problem driving the amp? Should I get a better PSU? If yes, what voltage and ampere rating should it be?
BTW, Arjen, the new colour, which seems orange to me, looks cool!
What colour is my unit having?
Csdam, do you have TP20s with RCA connectors and Speaker terminals accepting banana plugs just like the ones in TP10s?
Cheers,
Se Won
After having read good things about TA2020 based amps and good reputation about Arjen, I have recently ordered a Topping TP20 from Arjen including his modification. The unit seems to be on its way out of Hong Kong post office and I am expecting to receive it soon.
I was hoping that my existing PSU rated at 12V 3A that came with my old Yamaha CD writer will do the job but then I see the post by the "Topping Design Group" talking about 12V 5A and if I remember correctly Arjen recommended 14V to me.
Will my existing PSU rated at 12V 3A have problem driving the amp? Should I get a better PSU? If yes, what voltage and ampere rating should it be?
BTW, Arjen, the new colour, which seems orange to me, looks cool!
What colour is my unit having?Csdam, do you have TP20s with RCA connectors and Speaker terminals accepting banana plugs just like the ones in TP10s?
Cheers,
Se Won
Does RCA provide improved stereo separation compared to a 3.5mm stereo jack? And by how much?
I have a standard Topping TP-20 but I'm considering buying something like the Dayens Ampino. Would this be an upgrade over the TP-20? I'm happy with the TP-20, but I don't know what I'm missing out on since I upgraded to it from a Marantz SR6200 receiver which wasn't very good (in comparison to the TP-20).
My system: I use Ruark Talisman II speakers, which I think probably deserve very good amplification judging by reviews of them and their original price. Source is Asus Essence STX with an Antec Signature SG-650 PSU (about the best you can get for quality based on reviews and measurements), which should be audibly about as good as a very good CD player I'd have thought (only judging by reviews and what people say in forums, not necessarily fact!).
The Ampino gets rave reviews:
http://www.dayens.rs/pdf/HF21_Ampino_en.pdf http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dayens/ampino.html
How reliable are 6moons reviews please? My budget is about £350 max, I only need 1 input and would like >25W power per channel. I have absolutely no experience with soldering, but would like to learn. If I bought the Ampino, I'd like to replace the potentiometer with a stepped attenuator myself. Would you have thought this would be an easy job?
How much of a difference do quality of input capacitors make to the sound? Is the most important factor when choosing a capacitor of a given value from a schematic in an amplifier the ESR?
Sorry for all the questions, but any help or recommendations would be really appreciated. I feel like a student at school again!
I have a standard Topping TP-20 but I'm considering buying something like the Dayens Ampino. Would this be an upgrade over the TP-20? I'm happy with the TP-20, but I don't know what I'm missing out on since I upgraded to it from a Marantz SR6200 receiver which wasn't very good (in comparison to the TP-20).
My system: I use Ruark Talisman II speakers, which I think probably deserve very good amplification judging by reviews of them and their original price. Source is Asus Essence STX with an Antec Signature SG-650 PSU (about the best you can get for quality based on reviews and measurements), which should be audibly about as good as a very good CD player I'd have thought (only judging by reviews and what people say in forums, not necessarily fact!).
The Ampino gets rave reviews:
http://www.dayens.rs/pdf/HF21_Ampino_en.pdf http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/dayens/ampino.html
How reliable are 6moons reviews please? My budget is about £350 max, I only need 1 input and would like >25W power per channel. I have absolutely no experience with soldering, but would like to learn. If I bought the Ampino, I'd like to replace the potentiometer with a stepped attenuator myself. Would you have thought this would be an easy job?
How much of a difference do quality of input capacitors make to the sound? Is the most important factor when choosing a capacitor of a given value from a schematic in an amplifier the ESR?
Sorry for all the questions, but any help or recommendations would be really appreciated. I feel like a student at school again!
After my first impression at night at low levels with the 2x 4700uF added to the 12V line i finally got around to normal listening levels yesterday and i am impressed.
Both by how much the amp changed with such an easy mod (now i get why people love lead batteries) and how low my speakers really go.
With such a big change i will have to try my modded Teac Satellite speakers with 4: woofers again, seeing how it was the amp's "fault" for the sound being so bass less.
Thanks Arjen.
What brand/type do you prefer for the 2.2uF caps on the input side?
The only poly film caps were either axial or those piece of gum looking ones, no radial easy to mount caps. Maybe i need to just source at the right place?
Thanks,
Daniel
Both by how much the amp changed with such an easy mod (now i get why people love lead batteries) and how low my speakers really go.
With such a big change i will have to try my modded Teac Satellite speakers with 4: woofers again, seeing how it was the amp's "fault" for the sound being so bass less.
Thanks Arjen.
What brand/type do you prefer for the 2.2uF caps on the input side?
The only poly film caps were either axial or those piece of gum looking ones, no radial easy to mount caps. Maybe i need to just source at the right place?
Thanks,
Daniel
Tripath mods
Hi there Daniel,
Yes its amazing how much difference you get changing just the input caps, the rezon is that the buffer capacity needs to be really close to the IC itself, a battery powered amp will also perform better with big buffer caps, because the resistance inside the battery itself rises exponantionally with the current demanded.
I put 8800uF 25 volts caps in the modded amps, and i standart replace the Blue LED for orange/Amber colored ones.
The input caps i replace with 2.2 uF 63 volts poly caps from singapore, they measure very well with very low dissipation factor. the advantage of poly caps is that they are not so very large, like the ones used on my PCB's i sell, but later there will be a version that carries the latest PCB version with much improved output coils.
Marcus,
I have a factory in donguang that makes great full range speakers, ive made a sample order and if the quality is good i might share some with you, the design is already finished, i just need somone to make a CAD drawing for me so that i can order the cabinet at the factory.
Greetings!
Arjen right now from Xiamen.
Hi there Daniel,
Yes its amazing how much difference you get changing just the input caps, the rezon is that the buffer capacity needs to be really close to the IC itself, a battery powered amp will also perform better with big buffer caps, because the resistance inside the battery itself rises exponantionally with the current demanded.
I put 8800uF 25 volts caps in the modded amps, and i standart replace the Blue LED for orange/Amber colored ones.
The input caps i replace with 2.2 uF 63 volts poly caps from singapore, they measure very well with very low dissipation factor. the advantage of poly caps is that they are not so very large, like the ones used on my PCB's i sell, but later there will be a version that carries the latest PCB version with much improved output coils.
Marcus,
I have a factory in donguang that makes great full range speakers, ive made a sample order and if the quality is good i might share some with you, the design is already finished, i just need somone to make a CAD drawing for me so that i can order the cabinet at the factory.
Greetings!
Arjen right now from Xiamen.
Arjen, I think I'll leave the amp building entirely to you Sir. the modded TP-20, has the most wonderful sound I could have even hoped for, for that small amount of money! to anyone who questions the Topping TP-20 (as modded by Arjen, that is...) I have been listening to amps, and shopping around for some considerable time now, (more than a year!!!) and I have not found anything out there which can compare to the accuracy, range, and depth of sound, found just in the little TP-20 I got from Arjen! mind you, I was ONLY in need of a fairly low powered amp in which to run my little 8ohm mixing monitors (which are really just a pair of Polk R10's, instead of a pair of "true mixing monitors" (...I would explain my motive, but this is something I could write a whole article on, so I'll refrain) on my desk, in the small triangle, required for mixing and mastering original music...so you see; I am about to trust the mixing of my own artistry, with the amplification of Topping, and Arjen, and the little TriPath TA2020...
I normally only work on mixes with my Sony MDR 7509's, plugged directly into the headphone out of my computers sound card, or my sound card plugged into a low wattage Rane PA. (I won't even get into how that amp costs... but needless to say it has technical issues at present, and it doesn't belong to me. it's a loaner. however, I am happy to say, the Rane is no more.... not even upset to see it go!!!! this TP-20 has such well defined sound, and really is very nice in the low frequency 30-60hz range, with proper, and not excessive mixing/mastering db levels!!! I won't be cranking the little amp (MUCH) but I am happy to announce, THAT I CAN HAPPILY CRANK IT UP, SHOULD I EVER GET IN THE MOOD!!!!
It's tough to come by an amp which can perform well, playing some forms of electronic music. I am grateful for that! especially for less than half the price of any other amp I have shopped,
for my particular requirements, at least.... Been playing other peoples music (intense, and very creative and dynamic minimal techno of Germany and Neder ;-)) for almost 5 hours now @ louder than my normal working db, through the R10's, and the little amp's not even warm. IN FACT THE CASE EVEN FEELS COLD! by this point, I would feel massive heat radiating up from the Rane... It's always annoyed me!!
I normally only work on mixes with my Sony MDR 7509's, plugged directly into the headphone out of my computers sound card, or my sound card plugged into a low wattage Rane PA. (I won't even get into how that amp costs... but needless to say it has technical issues at present, and it doesn't belong to me. it's a loaner. however, I am happy to say, the Rane is no more.... not even upset to see it go!!!! this TP-20 has such well defined sound, and really is very nice in the low frequency 30-60hz range, with proper, and not excessive mixing/mastering db levels!!! I won't be cranking the little amp (MUCH) but I am happy to announce, THAT I CAN HAPPILY CRANK IT UP, SHOULD I EVER GET IN THE MOOD!!!!
It's tough to come by an amp which can perform well, playing some forms of electronic music. I am grateful for that! especially for less than half the price of any other amp I have shopped,
for my particular requirements, at least.... Been playing other peoples music (intense, and very creative and dynamic minimal techno of Germany and Neder ;-)) for almost 5 hours now @ louder than my normal working db, through the R10's, and the little amp's not even warm. IN FACT THE CASE EVEN FEELS COLD! by this point, I would feel massive heat radiating up from the Rane... It's always annoyed me!!Hi there Jakeez,
Happy to see that you enjoy using the amp!
ive done my best to make it as good as possible, but like a real hobbiest, im never done with my work! thats why Ive ordered some new coils today so i think i can add another improvement to the amplifier very soon!
Greetings!
Arjen Helder
Happy to see that you enjoy using the amp!
ive done my best to make it as good as possible, but like a real hobbiest, im never done with my work! thats why Ive ordered some new coils today so i think i can add another improvement to the amplifier very soon!
Greetings!
Arjen Helder
Hey Arjen.. yes man, the amp is fabulous! dare I say STUNNING, even! great work! I can't say it enough!
I have only a couple very small bits of feedback to give you, in regards to the amp. nothing at all bad.
first is: it would be best to attach somehow, the caps you've added on the power line, as they bang around inside the case, and would eventually cause technical problems with other components (or themselves) not sure yet how I will solve this small problem, but I know it surely has to be taken care of, because I don't wish to have the caps vibrating around inside the case, when I take the amp someplace, should I choose to transport it someplace. I was thinking zip-tie them to something inside, but I'm not sure there is anything stationary available, nearby. [which is durable enough to serve as a stable attachment point. or maybe a very tiny amount of hot glue could be applied to something, which the caps could stick to, just to simply keep them from vibrating against things inside the case]
second, is really something that would just be nice if Topping would design into the amp: either a tiny hole drilled straight through the knob, right where the level pots notch is, so the blue LED in the case could shine right through, as to display the level in the dark. or a micro LED could also be integrated into the pot's knob. probably the first idea, is best, simply because it wouldn't require any extra electronics, be added to the PCB, or any extra PCB be added to the existing design, just in order to create visual feedback.
Best,
Jay (p.s. keep me up to date on the tube-pre!!! I am ready to buy. I've got full confidence in what you offer man!)
great work! I can't say it enough! I have only a couple very small bits of feedback to give you, in regards to the amp. nothing at all bad.
first is: it would be best to attach somehow, the caps you've added on the power line, as they bang around inside the case, and would eventually cause technical problems with other components (or themselves) not sure yet how I will solve this small problem, but I know it surely has to be taken care of, because I don't wish to have the caps vibrating around inside the case, when I take the amp someplace, should I choose to transport it someplace. I was thinking zip-tie them to something inside, but I'm not sure there is anything stationary available, nearby. [which is durable enough to serve as a stable attachment point. or maybe a very tiny amount of hot glue could be applied to something, which the caps could stick to, just to simply keep them from vibrating against things inside the case]
second, is really something that would just be nice if Topping would design into the amp: either a tiny hole drilled straight through the knob, right where the level pots notch is, so the blue LED in the case could shine right through, as to display the level in the dark. or a micro LED could also be integrated into the pot's knob. probably the first idea, is best, simply because it wouldn't require any extra electronics, be added to the PCB, or any extra PCB be added to the existing design, just in order to create visual feedback.
Best,
Jay (p.s. keep me up to date on the tube-pre!!! I am ready to buy. I've got full confidence in what you offer man!)
see, I thought that, already. the problem is, there is not a solid object to glue them to. I don't really want to hot glue them to another cap, already soldered itself to the PCB. there is not a solid object close to them, other than smaller components already soldered to the PCB, themselves. the only other option is to somehow glue the two large caps to the top half of the case, but that will cause issues with taking the case apart (4 part case. top and bottom half, which is jointed together, and is held in place by front panel)
I may have other options, now knowing it's only slightly warm inside the box (very slightly)
I just don't like the idea of hot gluing electronic components to each other. especially since these added caps are heavy, and would have to be glued to caps which are tiny. gluing a component to something solid, yes. but not to something that could easily break from from the PCB itself, with the added weight.
I hope that Arjen may have an idea of how to secure it, actually. he knows exactly what I'm dealing with here.
Arjen?
I may have other options, now knowing it's only slightly warm inside the box (very slightly)
I just don't like the idea of hot gluing electronic components to each other. especially since these added caps are heavy, and would have to be glued to caps which are tiny. gluing a component to something solid, yes. but not to something that could easily break from from the PCB itself, with the added weight.
I hope that Arjen may have an idea of how to secure it, actually. he knows exactly what I'm dealing with here.
Arjen?
Hot glue
I Choose Hot glue for several resons,
First of all, this is not my own design amp, if so i would have added more capacitors on the PCB!
since space is very limited i choose to glue them with hot glue on the only place that was available, above the output coils.
The reson i used hot glue is because if anyone ever wants to exchange some components, hot glue is removable. all other glue's are not removable, so that makes servicing impossible.
ideally, we will later see a design with more caps on the PCB or more space available to add them.
i think this is not the perfect solution, but since there is no other way to do it, an accaptable one.
Greetings!
Arjen Helder
I Choose Hot glue for several resons,
First of all, this is not my own design amp, if so i would have added more capacitors on the PCB!
since space is very limited i choose to glue them with hot glue on the only place that was available, above the output coils.
The reson i used hot glue is because if anyone ever wants to exchange some components, hot glue is removable. all other glue's are not removable, so that makes servicing impossible.
ideally, we will later see a design with more caps on the PCB or more space available to add them.
i think this is not the perfect solution, but since there is no other way to do it, an accaptable one.
Greetings!
Arjen Helder
Arjen, this may seem silly to you, but could you email me a picture of the inside of the TP-20, pointing out which spot is best for gluing those input caps to? I just want to make it the most solid I can, without jeopardizing the health of anything else inside the amp. (as I said, I will probably wish to take the amp away from home, from time to time (and possibly take it to Europe with me, later this year. so traveling some rough roads in Scotland, and Iceland packed up in my bag, may be in store for the amp. vibration protection is an absolute must for me.
Oh, and AGAIN THE AMP IS amazing!!!! It just keeps suprising me, with it's sound quality! it almost seems like the sound on some good recordins I have, is suspended in layers of really fine crystal plates. that is the only way i can explain the sound! (just had to say again, how much I love it! and how happy I am, I decided to buy it from you!! I know soon you will have news for me, about a certain 12AX7/ECC83 tube-pre, right!? ..I'm ready to buy one right now, even if you are no-where near ready to sell me one!...lol!)
Oh, and thanks guys. I appreciate the help. (I am not knowledgeable with building equipment. the most experience I have, is taking the covers off of certain equipment, and switching tubes in tube based gear, and also tweaking the pots for each voice, on this old analog drum computer I used to own, that had internal controls for attack, decay, white/brown/pink noise, etc, which nicely lent itself to tweaking them along to the playing piece of music, live....fun stuff...but absolutely nothing like construction of equipment, and the care and feeding PCB's and their components...
Oh, and AGAIN THE AMP IS amazing!!!! It just keeps suprising me, with it's sound quality! it almost seems like the sound on some good recordins I have, is suspended in layers of really fine crystal plates. that is the only way i can explain the sound! (just had to say again, how much I love it! and how happy I am, I decided to buy it from you!! I know soon you will have news for me, about a certain 12AX7/ECC83 tube-pre, right!? ..I'm ready to buy one right now, even if you are no-where near ready to sell me one!...lol!)
Oh, and thanks guys. I appreciate the help. (I am not knowledgeable with building equipment. the most experience I have, is taking the covers off of certain equipment, and switching tubes in tube based gear, and also tweaking the pots for each voice, on this old analog drum computer I used to own, that had internal controls for attack, decay, white/brown/pink noise, etc, which nicely lent itself to tweaking them along to the playing piece of music, live....fun stuff...but absolutely nothing like construction of equipment, and the care and feeding PCB's and their components...
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