I don’t understand your question.
I’ve called into question the positioning of the Topping given its power output and issues driving real world loads.
There are dozens on diyAudio. Why do you even ask that question as if it’s a rare thing? The Topping has low distortion, but it’s a deeply flawed amp when required to drive a real world load.
I attempted about a year ago to propose a set of measurements that would allow a realistic assessment of amplifier performance. Naturally, a lot of people objected because distortion wasn’t ranked high enough, and some didn’t count tube amps as good enough (many are) so I ditched the whole thing.
I attempted about a year ago to propose a set of measurements that would allow a realistic assessment of amplifier performance. Naturally, a lot of people objected because distortion wasn’t ranked high enough, and some didn’t count tube amps as good enough (many are) so I ditched the whole thing.
Just about ANY of my IPS's running a wolverine standard EF3 with either 3/4 pair Sanken or ON semi outputs.
That is Symasui or Wolverine = PPB (beats it) , Spooky/hellraiser = PPM (matches it).
Symasui has 15db more OLG than the wolverine , testing would require a finely tuned THD magnifier.
Things like speaker wire/placement and other subtle environmental issues makes testing hard. Amps being better
than the testing setup scenerio's !
Rupopulles - Normal amplifiers are rated in continuous power output (per the US FTC). The B100 cannot be sold as a 100W amplifier in the US.
For complex loads, you want an amplifier whose output power doubles (or nearly doubles) from 8 ohms to 4 ohms. All good amplifiers can do that.
Ed
For complex loads, you want an amplifier whose output power doubles (or nearly doubles) from 8 ohms to 4 ohms. All good amplifiers can do that.
Ed
@ItsAllInMyHead
Just found these two posts
In fact, it seems that as @EdGr already said those amplifiers cannot be considered 100W RMS for any type of load and also confirm the fact that the load provided by the speakers must be "easy" and not go below 4 Ohm. 🙄
So they seem to be excellent amplifiers from a sound and performance point of view, but they must be carefully matched with speakers that if suitable will allow those amps to show off their merits.
Just found these two posts
that represent the quintessence of relativity in audio. 🙂
In fact, it seems that as @EdGr already said those amplifiers cannot be considered 100W RMS for any type of load and also confirm the fact that the load provided by the speakers must be "easy" and not go below 4 Ohm. 🙄
So they seem to be excellent amplifiers from a sound and performance point of view, but they must be carefully matched with speakers that if suitable will allow those amps to show off their merits.
Did you actually listen to one and what matching speakers were used in the evaluation?
Im sure there are tons of good amps here.
Im sure the topping has flaws, dont think im defending it.
I sense frustration so Let me appologize and rephraze: what are in your opinion amplifiers that can reproduce crescendos to difficult complex loads? I'd love to see specific examples of that you regard as great amps.
It sounded like you have specific amps in mind. forgive me if im wrong.
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acko, no I don't, but sorry to say that it seems like you want to nitpick every detail with me, I don't know with other ones actually. 🙂
However, if you (re)read my comment you will realize that I spoke of "relativity in audio" and therefore I drew a possibilistic and relative deduction, certainly not absolute as you seem to ask me, and above all I said "So they seem to be excellent amplifiers" I did not say that they are, since no one can say that.
And no one can say that they are junk either.
Furthermore, even if I had personally done a test then my evaluation would have been in any case relative and certainly not absolute, as seems obvious. 😉
Sorry, I didn’t mean to be hard on you🙏 Just that I advised a young worker of mine who is starting out and gave away my Jordan speakers - and recommended the B100s to drive them. Now, after hearing all these load drive issues I had to quickly warn that the B100s may get damaged in the process. The Jordans do go below 6 ohms IIRC. So, if anyone has good recommendations for speakers that are compatible and brings out the best from the B100s?
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No sorry needed at all, but please note what you wrote instead of "didn't" just as I guess you wanted. 🙂
Back to B100, it seems quite clear to me who am outside the fray that their measurement performances are very very high, that their price is not very expensive, that their sound is at least very good and that they must be carefully matched with the "right" loudspeakers.
I would say exactly this to your friend and I would also advise him to find the impedance curve of his Jordan speakers (or even an user's report), also because I'm convinced that a piece of audio equipment must first of all be liked, after which even some small "sacrifices" can be made,
Otherwise there are plenty of amplifiers out there and one is spoiled for choice, I think.
As a joke, maybe Topping meant to say that the B100s are 100W together...
IMHO Given how fast and effective the protection seems (perhaps even too effective), the risk of damaging them does not seem very high, maybe. 😉
Well, it can be sold. It clearly has been sold, and is continuing to be sold. However, it does not seem to be in compliance.
I had no idea re: the CFR. It seemed to ebb and flow from 1974 onward. I gave up hope. More reading to do. Thanks! I'm a bit discouraged by the update in June (§ 432.6) that seemingly lets the importer of record off the hook if they "didn't know" or ... were provided misleading documentation. i.e. hear no evil, see no evil.
I only scanned it this morning. I took the liberty of cutting / pasting some relevant passages. I have some friends at the FTC from when I worked in regulatory claims compliance. I may see if they have a hot take (off the record).
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"Any power level from 250 mW to the rated power shall be obtainable at all frequencies within the rated power band of 20 Hz to 20 kHz without exceeding 1.0% of total harmonic distortion plus noise (THD+N) at an impedance of 8 ohms after input signals at said frequencies have been continuously applied at full rated power for not less than five (5) minutes..."
"No performance characteristics to which this part applies shall be represented or disclosed if they are not obtainable as represented or disclosed when the equipment is operated by the consumer in the usual and normal manner without the use of extraneous aids."
-----------------------
So, after a brief scan of 5 mins. Topping uses 4R as their standard for reporting power output vs. 8 ohms. They seemingly did not obtain the published results by following the test methodology set forth in § 432.3 Standard test conditions; and there seem to be a number of violations in format of disclosure.
-----------------------
For those that are wondering...
Link to CFR
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Now, will anything likely be done... who knows?
Again, thanks for the heads up!!!! I should have looked first.
If I may say the following in friendship, while I understand your disappointment very well also I tell you to do not be bitter because it is not worth it.
Something similar has happened to many enthusiasts, but often at a later time one finds a way to "realize/understand" the device better and then he begins to use it with satisfaction.
This is what I wish for you. 👍
Something similar has happened to many enthusiasts, but often at a later time one finds a way to "realize/understand" the device better and then he begins to use it with satisfaction.
This is what I wish for you. 👍
^ That is very kind, and it is appreciated.
I am not bitter. I am a little disappointed. Here is why. We all come at this from different backgrounds. One of my previous jobs was in regulatory claims compliance. Audio (the diy part) is brand new to me, relatively speaking. As a general rule, I am upset when I think anyone is intentionally misleading in their claims. I would never accuse Topping or their representatives as being intentionally misleading. They may not know "the rules". If they are aware of the rules, and if they are intentionally breaking the rules... then I feel a little differently. For now, they get the benefit of the doubt.
I am also a little upset with myself that I did not keep up my notifications for when 16CFR is being updated and/or there are notices of proposed rulemaking around certain things I still find interesting professionally and personally. Regardless of this being my hobby, I 'should' be more aware of the rules in place around commercial audio products.
I am also curious about who is held accountable for what are typically the importer / manufacturer's responsibilities re: compliance in a situation like this. It is only for my personal curiosity. When my company was the importer of record for foreign-produced goods, we were accountable to our fellow citizens to ensure safety and compliance. In this situation, technically (I think) Shenzhen Audio would be the importer of record using DHL as their agent of record. Topping does not ship the product direct. Given that the "market" for these products is essentially buying direct from overseas, I am unfamiliar with the rules of advertising on the web from a foreign-based operation allowing US sales / shipping.
It's more curious to me. Again... no bitterness at all. The experience of getting them, playing with them, and seeing how they perform is fun.
So... sorry it's a long post ... again.
Cheers!
I am not bitter. I am a little disappointed. Here is why. We all come at this from different backgrounds. One of my previous jobs was in regulatory claims compliance. Audio (the diy part) is brand new to me, relatively speaking. As a general rule, I am upset when I think anyone is intentionally misleading in their claims. I would never accuse Topping or their representatives as being intentionally misleading. They may not know "the rules". If they are aware of the rules, and if they are intentionally breaking the rules... then I feel a little differently. For now, they get the benefit of the doubt.
I am also a little upset with myself that I did not keep up my notifications for when 16CFR is being updated and/or there are notices of proposed rulemaking around certain things I still find interesting professionally and personally. Regardless of this being my hobby, I 'should' be more aware of the rules in place around commercial audio products.
I am also curious about who is held accountable for what are typically the importer / manufacturer's responsibilities re: compliance in a situation like this. It is only for my personal curiosity. When my company was the importer of record for foreign-produced goods, we were accountable to our fellow citizens to ensure safety and compliance. In this situation, technically (I think) Shenzhen Audio would be the importer of record using DHL as their agent of record. Topping does not ship the product direct. Given that the "market" for these products is essentially buying direct from overseas, I am unfamiliar with the rules of advertising on the web from a foreign-based operation allowing US sales / shipping.
It's more curious to me. Again... no bitterness at all. The experience of getting them, playing with them, and seeing how they perform is fun.
So... sorry it's a long post ... again.
Cheers!
That fun is an essential part not only of audio, but also, if I may say so, of life.
And you said it spontaneously, so you understood, in my humble opinion, everything there is to understand. 😉
As I said before, that is my limitation, not your excess, especially and almost exclusively when reading about technical things, because the automatic translator is often inconsistent and it tires me out trying to understand what I actually know absolutely nothing about.
Anyway, without of course any flattery, it's nice to read you. 👍
PMPO - I always refer to it as the thermal power the unit produces when burning down ... 😎
As it is normally way more as the rails of the amplifier are ... no idea how they "calculate" these specs.
You used the crest factor of a sine signal in your table (sqwrt 2). For music just use 3-10.
Nearly EVERY digital music goes to 0dBFS! (I normally master to -0,3dBFS to avoid intersample peaks but often nobody cares) Which makes sense, just use all of the dynamic range you have.
But you don't have a peak meter (and for sure no real peak/intersample peak meter) in your player - it's just some form of rms-ish level.
Getting proper readings of levels is harder as it looks - maybe you find a plugin for your player? Peak, intersample peak, LUF, rms ...
You would need LCeq or LCs. Do you know what's the weighting of LMax? (none?)
L_eq means it's measured and weighted over a time period, you normally have to start and stop the measurement. That's the measurement for noise load of the ear, loud parts are higher weighted as silten ones. LCPeak is the loudest sample you measured - a hint to the crest factor of your music. But it is C weighted, so some extreme frequencies are cut out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighting_filter
Your A weighted reading is used for noise readings and calculations (wrongly but the standards united for it) but has no real use when measuring levels as you do.
As it is normally way more as the rails of the amplifier are ... no idea how they "calculate" these specs.
You used the crest factor of a sine signal in your table (sqwrt 2). For music just use 3-10.
Nearly EVERY digital music goes to 0dBFS! (I normally master to -0,3dBFS to avoid intersample peaks but often nobody cares) Which makes sense, just use all of the dynamic range you have.
But you don't have a peak meter (and for sure no real peak/intersample peak meter) in your player - it's just some form of rms-ish level.
Getting proper readings of levels is harder as it looks - maybe you find a plugin for your player? Peak, intersample peak, LUF, rms ...
You would need LCeq or LCs. Do you know what's the weighting of LMax? (none?)
L_eq means it's measured and weighted over a time period, you normally have to start and stop the measurement. That's the measurement for noise load of the ear, loud parts are higher weighted as silten ones. LCPeak is the loudest sample you measured - a hint to the crest factor of your music. But it is C weighted, so some extreme frequencies are cut out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighting_filter
Your A weighted reading is used for noise readings and calculations (wrongly but the standards united for it) but has no real use when measuring levels as you do.
The manufacturer claims 70W into 8 Ohms and that the load should be greater than or equal to 4 Ohms.
Some sites selling in Europe state 50W into 8 Ohm and 100W into 4 Ohm which seems (more) realistic.
Topping is certainly not the first manufacturer to claim a bit more power, but Topping doesn't say anywhere that B100 is a 100W amplifier into 8 Ohm.
The performance measured by ASR seems simply extraordinary, then it seems unlikely that it could sound bad, right?
My guess is that the extremely low level of both distortion and noise leads the listener to turn up the volume, but the device is designed to go into protection instead of clipping and so it still deserves the attention that many give it.
Some sites selling in Europe state 50W into 8 Ohm and 100W into 4 Ohm which seems (more) realistic.
Topping is certainly not the first manufacturer to claim a bit more power, but Topping doesn't say anywhere that B100 is a 100W amplifier into 8 Ohm.
The performance measured by ASR seems simply extraordinary, then it seems unlikely that it could sound bad, right?
My guess is that the extremely low level of both distortion and noise leads the listener to turn up the volume, but the device is designed to go into protection instead of clipping and so it still deserves the attention that many give it.
@PMPO - Thank you for the helpful information. I'm a total novice. I'm learning as I go, and I enjoy learning the technical aspects, but admittedly I'm probably more 'dangerous' knowing just a little. I continued to read more, and I think I have a better understanding of crest factor.
As for the 'in room measurements' - those were intended to be really crude. I did them very quickly and only as as 'example' to try and help show with one very, very crude tool what I consider to be 'quiet' or 'loud' under my normal conditions around the room. I searched for SPL meter in the app store ... and used the first one that came up. 🙂
Overall - from a novice / hobbyist / consumer level: The amps do just fine with the DIs until they're played 'loudly'. Once played 'loudly' in my room, they go into protection. I expected them to do better. With the Vandy's they didn't even get to levels that I'd consider proper for listening to good Rock. 🙂
I will definitely look into some better in-room technique if it ever comes to that. I've used REW for room correction with the typical calibrated mic. That may have been a better tool, but I was only trying for some "ballpark" measurements for comparisons. It's tough to calibrate "loud" with different people. So, I was trying to get a crude idea.
Love the way this community helps teach us noobs.
As for the 'in room measurements' - those were intended to be really crude. I did them very quickly and only as as 'example' to try and help show with one very, very crude tool what I consider to be 'quiet' or 'loud' under my normal conditions around the room. I searched for SPL meter in the app store ... and used the first one that came up. 🙂
Overall - from a novice / hobbyist / consumer level: The amps do just fine with the DIs until they're played 'loudly'. Once played 'loudly' in my room, they go into protection. I expected them to do better. With the Vandy's they didn't even get to levels that I'd consider proper for listening to good Rock. 🙂
I will definitely look into some better in-room technique if it ever comes to that. I've used REW for room correction with the typical calibrated mic. That may have been a better tool, but I was only trying for some "ballpark" measurements for comparisons. It's tough to calibrate "loud" with different people. So, I was trying to get a crude idea.
Love the way this community helps teach us noobs.