Ha, yes! As said, they look tempting even for DIY, but my interest and expectations are in flip-flop state. There is very little reports of how they perform in real conditions.
The latest 1 bit DAC by Topping is also attracting my interest. One reviewer, spilling more than usual superlatives in his review, tried combination with B100 and said that combination performs so-so. Seems, we can't get hi-end for 300$.
I still wonder would a proper supply instead of that SMPS, make any difference.
Just in case, I'll have a proper linear PS ready. 😉
Interesting, thanks. I missed this part of power delivery limitation of the B100. Benchmark AHB2 and others much better. Something to consider ☺️
In many homes often 2 x 1W is about the maximum playback level before someone switches stuff off. On the other hand I have yet to meet a situation where 2 x 100W let alone 2 x 400W really is needed. Normal homes with average efficiency stuff. System choices require odd measures of course.
More power is not necessarily better. Less = more.
Beating chinese designs and be competitive price wise maybe indicates to produce lighter, smaller sophisticated low power amplifiers with old school materials like molded metal casing, relay based volume, HDMI ARC, Wifi6/Bluetooth (can’t be ignored unfortunately) and built in fine but replacable/upgradable DAC + streamer. Mechanical touch of the seventies with 2024 technology. Separates have had their best time it seems.
More power is not necessarily better. Less = more.
Beating chinese designs and be competitive price wise maybe indicates to produce lighter, smaller sophisticated low power amplifiers with old school materials like molded metal casing, relay based volume, HDMI ARC, Wifi6/Bluetooth (can’t be ignored unfortunately) and built in fine but replacable/upgradable DAC + streamer. Mechanical touch of the seventies with 2024 technology. Separates have had their best time it seems.
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Been there done that, IW will not cut especially if you have less efficient speakers. Maybe ok as mosquito repellent 🤣
See the definitions of amplifier classes, with explanations.
Class AB still dissipates quite some heat when idling.
This idle power is VERY low compared to a real Class AB.
Yepp, that's why I'm talking about all the time.
Yeah, and 2 channels only. Imagine a simple 5.1.2 Atmos setup 🙄, not to mention a 7.2.4 😏
- 5.1.2 would require 7 amp channels, IF all speakers are passive
- 7.2.4 would require 11 amp channels, IF all speakers are passive
Imagine a modest active-2-way speaker setup around you for better SQ and things get a multiplier of x2, so 14 amp channels or 22 amp channels respectively. 😆
(Better to forget DIY and use some built-in DSP active satellites, e.g. Adam A4V-s).
But even with a stereo 3-way (6 amp channels) we're talking about 3x B100 stereo amps + all the parts before it.
I would forget the whole thing. When we're talking DIY, I'd pick a handful of 3E Audio 260-2-29A PFFB amp modules (Europe link, ASR) and feed them with another pack of low noise SMPS (e.g. Meanwell or another recommended ones), put into a big case (or 19" 4-unit height) and be happy. 😎
If that would be necesssary I would have the patented zero sound setup.
Having just 2 channel stuff with least possible error margins and best performance is already an art.
Having just 2 channel stuff with least possible error margins and best performance is already an art.
Hinted by Tombo56’s comments I just checked Topping new product launches and they sure know the HiFi talk with unexplicable terms and abbreviations 😉 A faint feeling was resemblance to the western brands that used to do that in the past too. History repeating itself. Also got the impression that they want to get rid of the cheap imago.
My wish list for improving the Topping B1xx series:
1. Elegant engineering with good power delivery e.g. true 100W rms into 8 ohm and about double that for 4ohm loads while still maintaining close to vanishingly low distortions
2. Built-in excellent SMPS with very low noise performance and SINAD figures.
3. Stereo Amp with bridged mono options
Let’s see what the price will be like ☺️
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Pass it on to Topping please. I am sure they will improve it next time. Until then I will control my gambling instincts for an enticingly el-cheapo product 🤣
Correct, I remember my Class AB builds during college years running hot at idle and then cooler a bit when driving. And then you can turn up the bias to approach like Class A performance that will require forced cooling. Or you can turn down the bias to get like Class B coolness plus all the cross over distortions.
My Benchmark class AB Amp does not break a sweat at idle. I think some sort of stop/start bias switching happening and likewise with the B100
Class B still has a significant more idle current compared to Class D.
Idle currents of B and AB are close to eachother and depending on real technology applied (instead of marketing specs), idle heat generation correlates with idle current amount.
If we imagine a simplified virtual scale of idle current flow amount, 0-10 with 10 being total consumption, then Class D falls with the least amount of idle current to about 1-3, Class B 4-5, Class AB 5-7 depending on how much it is biased closer to A, and Class A idling at 9 of it's full power intake (10). Just to estimate.
Now we of course find plenty of Hypex amps where idling consumption is somewhat higher what the normal 'recipe' for Class D would suggest, this is probably due to auxiliary circuits and other tricky solutions (see ASR measurements for some models and specs sheet regarding power consumption).
Heat is a subjective thing. My Onkyo HT amp runs somewhat hotter than my same-spec'd Yamaha - both good old 15+ years old Class AB models, built like tanks.
The feeling of heat depends on distances inside the chassis, overall surface (even when folded) of cooling fins, crowdedness due to cables, etc. The transistors themselves are conducting more or less the same (depending on how far we can believe to specs but allowing a 10% spread, they still all play in the same league - back then when everybody was class AB 🙂 Nowadays, most of them are Class D).
We can actually figure it out by driving them with a tiny little bit of white noise enough to bias them into Class AB, make them constantly conducting and seeing how they heat up (or not). For true Class AB, they should waste a remarkable amount of heat despite low output.
But hey, did we already believe the B100-s are real Class AB circuits ?
I'm leaving the concept of Class G and H here just for fun 😎😆😉
The B100 is a truly amazing piece of equipment (and achievement) but as long as a Topping engineer doesn't tell us what's going on with the combination of such high output in Class AB at so little idling currents, we're flying blind. Cheers.
Idle currents of B and AB are close to eachother and depending on real technology applied (instead of marketing specs), idle heat generation correlates with idle current amount.
If we imagine a simplified virtual scale of idle current flow amount, 0-10 with 10 being total consumption, then Class D falls with the least amount of idle current to about 1-3, Class B 4-5, Class AB 5-7 depending on how much it is biased closer to A, and Class A idling at 9 of it's full power intake (10). Just to estimate.
Now we of course find plenty of Hypex amps where idling consumption is somewhat higher what the normal 'recipe' for Class D would suggest, this is probably due to auxiliary circuits and other tricky solutions (see ASR measurements for some models and specs sheet regarding power consumption).
Heat is a subjective thing. My Onkyo HT amp runs somewhat hotter than my same-spec'd Yamaha - both good old 15+ years old Class AB models, built like tanks.
The feeling of heat depends on distances inside the chassis, overall surface (even when folded) of cooling fins, crowdedness due to cables, etc. The transistors themselves are conducting more or less the same (depending on how far we can believe to specs but allowing a 10% spread, they still all play in the same league - back then when everybody was class AB 🙂 Nowadays, most of them are Class D).
Strongly agree. These amps MIGHT have of course some tricky switching start/stop and/or bias shifting circuit inside and when signal is coming they instantly get into real Class AB mode. A wise idea actually, given it doesn't affect the sound in a negative way but according to measurements, it's well implemented.
We can actually figure it out by driving them with a tiny little bit of white noise enough to bias them into Class AB, make them constantly conducting and seeing how they heat up (or not). For true Class AB, they should waste a remarkable amount of heat despite low output.
But hey, did we already believe the B100-s are real Class AB circuits ?
I'm leaving the concept of Class G and H here just for fun 😎😆😉
The B100 is a truly amazing piece of equipment (and achievement) but as long as a Topping engineer doesn't tell us what's going on with the combination of such high output in Class AB at so little idling currents, we're flying blind. Cheers.
and as far as performance goes it needs to pass the “Pub Test” as what they say here in Australia 🍻😊
This thing sure is generating a lot of heat for an alleged Class D or highly-efficient Class AB device. 🙂
Someone should buy one and send it to that ASR guy along with a kill-a-watt to get a good input power vs. output power curve for various output levels, as well as his usual tests. Should someone take up a collection?
Someone should buy one and send it to that ASR guy along with a kill-a-watt to get a good input power vs. output power curve for various output levels, as well as his usual tests. Should someone take up a collection?
ASR has already done tests on the B100 to 50W+ load. pretty impressive results actually but other reviewers for listening tests seem to keep it to lightweight division driving smallish desktop speakers.
Well, I went ahead and got a pair for the singles day sale. I haven't done any measurements, but ... from what I can tell, they work as advertised. Here's how silly I am... Of course they publish the specs for the physical size. When they arrived and I took them out of the box, I was still astonished how small they are.
They sound good to me, they're itty bitty tiny (compared with my DIY amps), they consume bucket-loads less power (comparatively speaking) than my DIY or commercial amps. That's about all, for now.
I wanted to try these b/c they went about as far 'against' the "Pure SE Class A" ideals that I have heard so often. Topping products have produced good value for money (for me) in the past, and ... at this price point... I'm not terribly concerned with reparability should they break past the two year warranty period.
Do they (maybe) sound different than some of my other DIY / commercial amps? Sure, I think so. They maybe should. I don't really have any other ultra-low distortion amps (that I've finished). I have a Wolverine on the bench that needs attention. I have also one commercial A/B amp that advertised very low distortion. It differs from the Topping most dramatically in that it may be a more "traditional" A/B by some definitions, and is rated to about 25% of rated power in Class A into 8R. When I did the measurements on that amp, it may not be as low distortion as advertised, but I'm a measurement novice. It's still a mighty-fine amplifier to my ears. So, is there anything comparable in my stable for comparison ... not really.
Right now they're hooked up RCA / SE, but I'll swap the cables to XLR when I get a minute and track them down. It's that... they're here somewhere syndrome. Shouldn't make much if any difference, but why not. I'll also remove the pre-amp from the chain and try it direct from an old D90 (AKM) DAC. Then, I may (or may not) use my H2 generator with such a "clean" chain to see if intentionally adding some "sweetness" does anything that makes me smile or cringe. I've always been curious about that, and past 'experiments' have yielded 'mixed' results.
What came out immediately prior; an F5m. I think they've got a different character to them, but... I'm also not a golden-eared youngster. I can say that when I put on a few "test tracks" that I know well and looked for tell-tale signs of immediate hate, I found none. It's pleasing. Female vocals don't sound shrill (particularly Alison Krauss), cymbals sound authentic, guitar chords (12-string in particular) sound clear and nuanced, bass is 'authoritative', but not muddy. Now, the speakers hooked up at the moment (Tekton DI) are not characteristically known as all that "revealing" to many folks in this forum, but I happen to like them, and they're "party speakers", with which these little amps might be paired.
Those are the initial thoughts... they may be my only thoughts... Will they likely stick around... who knows? I didn't yank them after an appropriate amount of listening, they don't make my ears bleed ... and who knows maybe they'll "burn in". 😉
At the moment... after another day or two, they'll get shipped off to my brother to replace a traditional Class A amp he and I both love. He can use these while I repair that amp. I'll brainwash him and tell him they're some new fangled amazing SE Class A using the latest technology in this wee-tiny package. Then, he may be less likely to immediately poo-poo them based on size and tech used alone.
If anyone needs / wants additional info, please let me know. I'll try, but I've been slammed lately. The only thing I ask is that no one ask for "listening impressions". They're fine, and we all have different ears / brains / speakers / rooms / preferences. I like lots of different amps, and it seems these can be included with things I like.
Cheers,
Patrick
They sound good to me, they're itty bitty tiny (compared with my DIY amps), they consume bucket-loads less power (comparatively speaking) than my DIY or commercial amps. That's about all, for now.
I wanted to try these b/c they went about as far 'against' the "Pure SE Class A" ideals that I have heard so often. Topping products have produced good value for money (for me) in the past, and ... at this price point... I'm not terribly concerned with reparability should they break past the two year warranty period.
Do they (maybe) sound different than some of my other DIY / commercial amps? Sure, I think so. They maybe should. I don't really have any other ultra-low distortion amps (that I've finished). I have a Wolverine on the bench that needs attention. I have also one commercial A/B amp that advertised very low distortion. It differs from the Topping most dramatically in that it may be a more "traditional" A/B by some definitions, and is rated to about 25% of rated power in Class A into 8R. When I did the measurements on that amp, it may not be as low distortion as advertised, but I'm a measurement novice. It's still a mighty-fine amplifier to my ears. So, is there anything comparable in my stable for comparison ... not really.
Right now they're hooked up RCA / SE, but I'll swap the cables to XLR when I get a minute and track them down. It's that... they're here somewhere syndrome. Shouldn't make much if any difference, but why not. I'll also remove the pre-amp from the chain and try it direct from an old D90 (AKM) DAC. Then, I may (or may not) use my H2 generator with such a "clean" chain to see if intentionally adding some "sweetness" does anything that makes me smile or cringe. I've always been curious about that, and past 'experiments' have yielded 'mixed' results.
What came out immediately prior; an F5m. I think they've got a different character to them, but... I'm also not a golden-eared youngster. I can say that when I put on a few "test tracks" that I know well and looked for tell-tale signs of immediate hate, I found none. It's pleasing. Female vocals don't sound shrill (particularly Alison Krauss), cymbals sound authentic, guitar chords (12-string in particular) sound clear and nuanced, bass is 'authoritative', but not muddy. Now, the speakers hooked up at the moment (Tekton DI) are not characteristically known as all that "revealing" to many folks in this forum, but I happen to like them, and they're "party speakers", with which these little amps might be paired.
Those are the initial thoughts... they may be my only thoughts... Will they likely stick around... who knows? I didn't yank them after an appropriate amount of listening, they don't make my ears bleed ... and who knows maybe they'll "burn in". 😉
At the moment... after another day or two, they'll get shipped off to my brother to replace a traditional Class A amp he and I both love. He can use these while I repair that amp. I'll brainwash him and tell him they're some new fangled amazing SE Class A using the latest technology in this wee-tiny package. Then, he may be less likely to immediately poo-poo them based on size and tech used alone.
If anyone needs / wants additional info, please let me know. I'll try, but I've been slammed lately. The only thing I ask is that no one ask for "listening impressions". They're fine, and we all have different ears / brains / speakers / rooms / preferences. I like lots of different amps, and it seems these can be included with things I like.
Cheers,
Patrick
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