Look at Convert. Control. Amplify. and you will find.
While nitt picking I see that ncore not quite reaches the same low levels of THD.
When ncore amps and the LME49830 based one sound "the same" the choice does not seem difficult regarding price....all IMHO.
While nitt picking I see that ncore not quite reaches the same low levels of THD.
When ncore amps and the LME49830 based one sound "the same" the choice does not seem difficult regarding price....all IMHO.
Not many amplifiers do, anyway, regardless of operating class.
And the fact that a Class D does reach these numbers, helps make one thing clear: most people don't have the know-how to make a proper Class D amplifier but that doesn't mean it impossible. You just need new dogs for new tricks.
By the way, the links are here and these are the numbers for the OEM module.
Don't be surprised if the DIY module actually measures better than that.
If it was that simple, The Wire, with it's excellent performance and performance/cost ratio, would render every other amplifier obsolete.
What price are you referring to?
The link you gave refers to the nc1200 noise performance.
But I can't find a price, not even on Hypex website.
The link you gave refers to the nc1200 noise performance.
But I can't find a price, not even on Hypex website.
Andrew,
Look at Hypex' web shop; the naked nc400 is almost 400 Euro VAT included, that is for a single amp module; you will be over 1000 Euro for a stereo amp with power supply.
Let's be fair: noise and/or distortion measurements are so good with both types of amplifiers that this seems totally pointless; I'd rather be more interested in sonic comparisons.
Music reproduction is a very subjective matter; in spite of very well measuring (and power efficient) amplifiers there will always be listeners preferring for example pure class A amplifiers, be it SS or tube, because they find them sound more "musical". That makes (DIY) audio so interesting.
Look at Hypex' web shop; the naked nc400 is almost 400 Euro VAT included, that is for a single amp module; you will be over 1000 Euro for a stereo amp with power supply.
Let's be fair: noise and/or distortion measurements are so good with both types of amplifiers that this seems totally pointless; I'd rather be more interested in sonic comparisons.
Music reproduction is a very subjective matter; in spite of very well measuring (and power efficient) amplifiers there will always be listeners preferring for example pure class A amplifiers, be it SS or tube, because they find them sound more "musical". That makes (DIY) audio so interesting.
The tech white paper is here.
The measurements are from the NC1200 product bulletin, posted here. This is the high power OEM module.
NC400 is the DIY module (lower power but better input stage etc.).
Webshop has prices for both NC400 and the matching SMPS600.
We are off-topic I'm afraid. There is a dedicated NCore thread @ the Class D forum and we are also referring to a commercial product.
Hi Guys,
There's a fundamental issue in that the N-core measurement is scaled relative to 1W at 8 ohm (2.83V) and mine are all done at 1dBV. That means the N-core measurements will be 9dB worse than they appear on that graph if you scale them relative to 1dBV as I have. This applies to all their measurements, including the distortion measurements.
The peak at 100 Hz is also significantly worse in that it's about -102dBV where the class AB is 20dB better. Keep in mind that peaks above the noise floor are significantly more audible than a generally higher noise floor is.
Don't get me wrong, the N-core amplifier has absolutely phenomenal performance for a class-D amp, but as I've said before, it's still not quite as good as the best class A and AB designs. It is a reminder though that hard work in that area is allowing them to close the gap!
Be very careful how you read graphs. There's nothing tricky or wrong about the way they did the measurements, but if you're going to compare graphs, make sure you have the same X and Y axis!
Cheers,
Owen
There's a fundamental issue in that the N-core measurement is scaled relative to 1W at 8 ohm (2.83V) and mine are all done at 1dBV. That means the N-core measurements will be 9dB worse than they appear on that graph if you scale them relative to 1dBV as I have. This applies to all their measurements, including the distortion measurements.
The peak at 100 Hz is also significantly worse in that it's about -102dBV where the class AB is 20dB better. Keep in mind that peaks above the noise floor are significantly more audible than a generally higher noise floor is.
Don't get me wrong, the N-core amplifier has absolutely phenomenal performance for a class-D amp, but as I've said before, it's still not quite as good as the best class A and AB designs. It is a reminder though that hard work in that area is allowing them to close the gap!
Be very careful how you read graphs. There's nothing tricky or wrong about the way they did the measurements, but if you're going to compare graphs, make sure you have the same X and Y axis!
Cheers,
Owen
Interesting points, all, about NCore. I did not mean to take the thread too far off-topic; I just feel it's dangerous to lump all class D designs together. Certainly, the price/performance ratio is also important, and that's why I'm building a Wire first and maybe someday get around to building an NCore when I have a couple grand laying around. Owen, I am absolutely blown away by the numbers you have measured and in no way want to take away from this design. Back on topic we go!
EDIT: I think regardless of the numbers, the noise floor of both of these amps is difficult to measure, and certainly extremely difficult (impossible?) to hear.
EDIT: I think regardless of the numbers, the noise floor of both of these amps is difficult to measure, and certainly extremely difficult (impossible?) to hear.
a noise floor @ -101dBW unweighted and genuine for a completed amplifier is indeed difficult to hear.
Even 100dB/W @ 1m speakers will give a noise volume @ 1m that is lower than the threshold of hearing.
But what is the point of quoting extracts from an amplifier brochure and white paper that is not available and that has no price for a cost to cost vs performance value assessment?
I opened the door for that inevitable comparison Andrew, but your point is valid.
The N-core stuff represents the next generation of Class D amplification, and although impressive, it will still be at least one more generation before one can safely say that Class D amplifiers perform as well as class A/AB amplifiers in terms of noise, distortion, and frequency response.
This is ignoring the cost and implementation issues of course. If you need a lot of power in a small space, then the N-core stuff will definitely be the way to go. Class D has many advantages, but sonic performance is not one of them.
Regards,
Owen
The N-core stuff represents the next generation of Class D amplification, and although impressive, it will still be at least one more generation before one can safely say that Class D amplifiers perform as well as class A/AB amplifiers in terms of noise, distortion, and frequency response.
This is ignoring the cost and implementation issues of course. If you need a lot of power in a small space, then the N-core stuff will definitely be the way to go. Class D has many advantages, but sonic performance is not one of them.
Regards,
Owen
No Thanks 🙂
Besides... these are direct measurement comparisons. There's no room for opinion when it comes to that
Whether or not you think these measurements are good indicators of sonic performance is a whole other can of worms, but if you look at the actual performance as show here, you can say that class D does not measure as well as the class AB. That's the point I'm trying to address.
Cheers,
Owen
Besides... these are direct measurement comparisons. There's no room for opinion when it comes to that
Whether or not you think these measurements are good indicators of sonic performance is a whole other can of worms, but if you look at the actual performance as show here, you can say that class D does not measure as well as the class AB. That's the point I'm trying to address.
Cheers,
Owen
To be honest, in terms of measurements The Wire has more similarities to the Ncore than to 99% of Class A/AB amplifiers made and/or bought out there....
Not to mention that the majority of the audiophiles have neither the room nor the audio equipment to evaluate the Wire's advantage over Ncore - but ofc like to try such things just for the fun of it.
Dedicated listening rooms are usually out of the question and it's safer for the husband to play around with sources, amplifiers, cables etc than try and install a bass trap or a diffuser in the living room.
The dog's house at the backyard is not a nice place to spend the night.
Not to mention that the majority of the audiophiles have neither the room nor the audio equipment to evaluate the Wire's advantage over Ncore - but ofc like to try such things just for the fun of it.
Dedicated listening rooms are usually out of the question and it's safer for the husband to play around with sources, amplifiers, cables etc than try and install a bass trap or a diffuser in the living room.
The dog's house at the backyard is not a nice place to spend the night.
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That is true, but then again the N-core does represent the absolute best of any class D, where The Wire is not the best measuring class AB in existence.
Comparing the finest example of one technology to the midrange of another is not a valid way of comparing the merits of two different methodologies.
There are many class A/AB amps that do not measure as well as The Wire, but there are far more class D amplifiers that do not measure as well as the N-core stuff.
Cheers,
Owen
Actually I don't expect that much difference in sonic performance.
Interesting might be how the class AB will perform at higher power levels compared to class D, in other words if possible crossover artefacts of the class B will loose out on the class D performance (well designed dead time switching seems to be "crossover free").
However at normal domestic listening levels amplifiers seldom put on more than a couple of watts, and the Wire Amp can easily be build as a pure class A amp when required.
Interesting might be how the class AB will perform at higher power levels compared to class D, in other words if possible crossover artefacts of the class B will loose out on the class D performance (well designed dead time switching seems to be "crossover free").
However at normal domestic listening levels amplifiers seldom put on more than a couple of watts, and the Wire Amp can easily be build as a pure class A amp when required.
Of course you are right, that's not the comparison I was trying to make - though the Wire is definitely not "midrange" in terms of measurements.
What I (unsuccessfully) tried to point out is that the generalization that Class D amps are not good enough for high fidelity applications leads to the logical conclusion that neither are 99% of the Class A/AB amps out there that measure worse than Ncore (without opening the "measurements aren't everything can of worms). 😉
Keep up the good work and give more Wire amps to the people! 🙂
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