The quest for a new DIY-speaker kit

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#81
I understand that very well and I can relate to that as well.

The Jericho horn is very good and checks all the boxes when the 3 way is scrapped. Two downsides: The dispersion is not very wide and it doesn't go very deep (50Hz).

The Cobra horn is a 2-way which is very similar in most points but for a bargain.
 
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#84
ICG said:
I understand that very well and I can relate to that as well.

The Jericho horn is very good and checks all the boxes when the 3 way is scrapped. Two downsides: The dispersion is not very wide and it doesn't go very deep (50Hz).

The Cobra horn is a 2-way which is very similar in most points but for a bargain.
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Your links are working, but not as you may have intended, I think.

@op: whereas the Doppler effect is negligible, drivers that have to do big excursions for low frequencies distort a lot more than drivers that don’t. So in the end you are right.

If you are really serious about it, consider a main (2-way) system, assisted by three or four subs on DSP. To many (and objectively viewed too) the multisub approach brings the best low frequency reproduction in rooms and you will be able to keep the low end away from the mains. Geddes and others described it. It’s a bit of a workout to set it up, but once installed, it’s most likely the best option for a mancave, apart from bigger implementations with more channels.
 
#91
mbrennwa said:
For such short listening distances I'd want a point source.
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Usually doesn’t need to play near as loud either. An ideal applicarion for a single driver loudspeaker.

ICG mentioned some horns… small front facing mouth limit the LF. Have a look at the Frugel-Horns which use the wall/corner behind to magnify the moyuth size. Very versatile.

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-frugel-horn-family.277557/

A larger one — Joan — has all been added to the family.

None of these, or the ones ICG mentioned are usable for nearfield althou there was one build where FH3 was integrated into the desk.

dave
 
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#92
Dave, they are usable for nearfield since they are still point sources. And I didn't add these horn links to play loud but to get a comfortable headroom on the efficiency. And you know very well yourself these frugal ...'horns'.. work mainly as a TML and NOT as a horn - that's why they go deeper.
 
#93
ICG said:
work mainly as a TML and NOT as a horn
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King showed that almost all horns of this kind of size have horn loading only down to a frequency and any bass below that is quarter-wave (TML) loading.

Front mouth horns have smaller effective sizes than the same size mouth magnified by more room.

A front mouth horn will be effectively 2x its physical size due to mirroring be the floor. Put the mouth on the back and use the wall, that becomes 4x and push it into the corner it is 8x.

Scott did a brilliant job maximizing what could be squeezed out of such small horns using a very clever combination of tricks gleaned from the poineers, such as Paul Klipsch (the original K-Horn exemplifies an early application of room boundaries for enhancing horn loaded bass extension, and the restiction buried inside), PGAH Voigt, the tapped horn), and i am sure others. Then he used tools and insights provided by King, and others, including some proprietary tools to craft something special. It seemlessly blends the direct radiation from the front of the driver, the amplified bass outout of the horn loading in the bass, and in some loading situations some TML-quarter-wave support at the lowest frequencies. With 4 sizes and fine tuning it suits a widerange of drivers. Note that a BLH horn is a member of quarter-wave design space, and all these designs are relaly hybrids.

All those are based on the old BK-style horns “designed/guessed” before decent modelers came to fine tuned for the driver used by tweaking the amount of damping.

dave
 
#94
planet10 said:
Scott did a brilliant job maximizing what could be squeezed out of such small horns using a very clever combination of tricks gleaned from the poineers, such as Paul Klipsch
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I don't doubt your speakers sound good but none of the pioneers created a 'horn' that expands and then suddenly reduces the cross surface to less than 1/4th! Care to explain how that's a HORN?!
 
#98
planet10 said:
The original.
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Since the search for 'the original' Klipschhorn brought up over 5600 different results. Since your dodging the question and not giving any real information but just using it to smother unwanted questions. I am confident not to lean too much out of the window with the claim you know exactly the 'borrowed' design is not a HORN!
 
#100
ICG said:
Since the search for 'the original' Klipschhorn brought up over 5600 different results. Since your dodging the question and not giving any real information but just using it to smother unwanted questions. I am confident not to lean too much out of the window with the claim you know exactly the 'borrowed' design is not a HORN!
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Huh? I'm not going to do your research for you.

There was an original… and then evolution. How is that dodging.

Given they hgave been around for some 8 decades,

KLIPSCHORN:
1930: While working In Chile, S.A. PWK was an amateur radio enthusiast. Comparing various types of radio speakers, he recognized the superior efficiency of horns.
1933: Back in the U.S. at Stanford University, PWK made note of a classmates comment that "speakers sound better in a corner".
1934: Still at Stanford, PWK read the Symposium on Auditory Perspective by Bell Telephone Laboratories.
1939-41: The above mentioned facts were blended into a design philosophy. PWK drew pictures and built paper models that were to become the "Klipschorn".
Feb 1940: Paul Klipsch applies for a patent on his first prototype cornerhorn, the X-1. It was during patent "negotiations" that he first learned of prior art cornerhorns. There were several such designs.
1941: While stationed at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds, PWK reviewed and corrected his first manuscript on corner horns. Note: A second design was prototyped as X-2, but was destroyed by termites before meaningful measurements could be made.
May 1942: The first successful prototype (X-3) was built in Paul Klipsch's garage using only hand tools. This basic corner woofer has changed little over the years. This was serial number 1.
Oct 1942: Paul Klipsch applied for a patent on X3.
Feb 1943: Paul received a patent on his first (unsuccessful) prototype, the X-1.
April 1945: A patent was granted for the third prototype (X3) which was to become the Klipschorn.
June 1945: Another patent was applied for describing Paul's second high frequency horn (X-5). This later became the K-5-H horn.
1946: Klipsch and Associates was incorporated.
Early 1947: The first production run of 12 units, serial numbers 2-13 were built to Paul's specifications by the Baldwin Piano & Organ Company of Cincinnati Ohio. The high frequency driver in these was the WE713A. At least one of the woofers was a JBL.
Late 1947 - Early 1948: Seven more serial numbers 14-20 were built by hand in a local cabinet shop. Paul Klipsch recalled that no more than two were alike. It was during these "experiments" that the LF horn's "sinus" cavities were added to the woofer's back air chamber to maximize acoustic capacitance. Component Designations: High frequency Western Electric 713A, Woofer unknown.
June 1948: The first Klipschorn to be built in the first actual Klipsch factory was S/N 121. The building was formerly the telephone exchange building for the Southwest Proving Grounds and is currently the Klipsch Museum of Audio History. Component Designations: The early production logs (1949) first make reference to the use of the Jensen P-15-LL woofer. The production log makes reference to a total of 26 Klipschorn’s built this year.
1949: The Stephens P52LX2 becomes the primary woofer. This driver is used through August of 1953 when the transition to the Stephens 103LX2 was made. The Stephens P15 High frequency driver starts appearing in the logbook.
Aug 1950: The Electrovoice EV 15WK woofer is first referenced in the production logs and is used interchangeably with both of the Stephens woofers and the early K-33-J woofers until March of 1961
1951: The University SAHF replaces the Stephens P15 as the primary high frequency driver.
June 1951: The first three-way Klipschorn incorporated a Jensen RP203 tweeter. This tweeter came from the famous Jensen G-610 Triaxial 15" driver and required considerable negotiations with Jensen. It was not until mid-1952 that all Klipschorn’s were three-way. A two-way Klipschorn with response to 12Khz was generally adequate for program material up to that time. The University MID-T-4401 replaced the Jensen unit as the tweeter of choice later in 1951.
July 1952: The original K-5-H high frequency horn of the patent was modified to become the K-5-J. This involved changing the vertical taper so that the dividers ("boats") could be removed. This resulted in a production cost savings, not an acoustical improvement.
Sept 1952: A cardboard shipping container was used for the first time. Prior to this all Klipschorn’s® were shipped in wooden crates. The last wood crate was used on S/N 912 on June 13, 1955
Aug 1953: The Stephens 103LX2 Woofer starts to be used
1955: K-500 / 5000 network phased out in favor of the 1 RC (Type A network)
Nov 1957 - May 5, 1958: This was the transition period between the University 4401 tweeter and the Electrovoice Alnico magnet T-35 (K-77) which yielded substantially flat response to 17Khz
Aug 1959: The first shipment of Electrovoice T-35 tweeters designated as K-77 is received. The K-77 is first used in S/N 1445 on Oct 15,1959
Nov 1958: Driver polarities were first observed and made consistent. This practice was initiated due to marginal improvements noted during listening tests.
Apr 1960: Transition to the K-33-J Woofer (Jensen) from the EV 15WK began. And University SAHF mid-range drivers started to be designated and labeled as K-55
May - Sept 1961: This was the transition period between the 6" high woofer horn throat and the current 3" high throat. This boosted output in the 400 - 500 Hz range further smoothing the response. Multi-tapered wedges were also added to the woofer throat (opposite side of the motor board from the driver) to further improve the response in this region. The use of these wedges was soon abandoned but the smaller throat dimensions were retained and are in use today.
Nov 1961: The Atlas K-55-V Alnico magnet mid-range driver is introduced. This driver was patterned after the famous Western Electric 555-W.
1963 - May 1964: The K-5-J mid-range horn was replaced with the K-400 resulting in a flatter overall spectral balance, particularly in both crossover regions.
Oct. 24, 1966: The designation for the Type 1RC crossover network was changed to Type A.
Sept 1967: Transition to the K-33-M.
Jan 1968: Transition to The K-33-P Woofer (CTS Paducah KY)
July 1971: The Type AA crossover network was introduced featuring Zener diode tweeter protection.
1975: Transition to The K-33-B Woofer (CTS Brownsville TX)
1975-1979: K-33-E (Eminence) and the K-33-B were used interchangeably. The records are not specific about the actual start date for the K-33-E but it is believed to be in the early to mid 1970's
1979: The Eminence K-33-E woofer is used exclusively
Feb 1, 1983: The two piece Type-AK crossover network was introduced incorporating fusing and steeper filter slopes for enhanced tweeter protection and smoother response in the crossover regions. Heavy gauge (10 AWG) internal wiring was used throughout and binding posts replaced the traditional screw type barrier block as input terminals. The tweeter was flush mounted in the baffle using "Z" brackets. Rubber wall gaskets were added to the sides of the tailboard to improve the seal to less than perfect wall surfaces.
Oct 1983: The Type AK-2 network was introduced to accommodate the new Ceramic Magnet K-55-M mid-range driver. This Electrovoice sourced driver was essentially the same as the previous K-55-V with a ceramic magnet and a smoother response
Apr 1987: The "D" style decorator cabinet (no cosmetic panels or grilles) was discontinued.
Nov 1987: The Aluminum K-400 horn was replaced with the K-401 structural foam horn resulting in slightly improved distortion figures.
Oct 1989: The AK-3 network was introduced to correct for a shift in the output of the K-55-M mid-range driver.
1995: A limited edition of the Klipschorn is produced to mark the 50th anniversary of the company and the Klipschorn. A total of 150 pairs were offered in three different finishes but less than 50 pairs total were sold. The only changes to this model were cosmetic.
Aug 1995: The "C" style cabinet (no intermediate collar or kick plate) was discontinued
2000: Electrovoice ceases production of the K-77-M and K-55-M tweeter and mid-range drivers. The search for replacement drivers and the acquisition of the EV tooling is sought. Very limited production of a few pairs occurs at the end of 2000 and the early months of 2001 using existing part stocks
May 2001: The Atlas PD-5VH (Current version of the previous K-55-V) is modified slightly and christened the K-55-X. The various components of the K-77-M tweeter are either retooled or sourced from the new owners of the tooling and assembled by a third party. This variant of the tweeter is designated the K-77-F. An entirely new one piece network, located on the woofer door, (AK-4) was created to accommodate these driver changes. Fusing is eliminated in favor of a Polyswitch for tweeter protection and a trap circuit was added to tame the longstanding response peak in the middle of the woofer's pass band, resulting in an improved spectral balance. The number of variants available was reduced by the elimination of the Brown and Cane grille cloths and oil finishes.
Dec 2005: The Type AK-5 network was introduced to compensate for the improvement in low frequency response resulting from the addition of a horizontal wall seal to the top of the low frequency cabinet. The style "B" cabinet was discontinued by the elimination of the inset "intermediate collar" and visible "woofer top" panel in favor of a 3/8" gap between the cabinets. The long standing angle brackets, hanger bolts and wing nuts used to attach the HF and LF cabinets together were replaced with thick rubber spacers, on the LF cabinet, indexed into recesses on the HF cabinet.
April 2006: The horn portion of the K-77-F tweeter was re-tooled to include a recessed flange eliminating the need for the separate "Z" bracket and attachment rivets. This also allowed the updating of pre-Z bracket Klipschorn’s (prior to Feb 1,1983) to flush tweeter status without motor board modification. This variant was designated as the K-77-D
April 2006: A special limited edition Klipschorn was produced to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the company and the speaker itself. Low frequency response was enhanced with the addition of rear low frequency horn panels. This eliminated the need for a tight fit into the corner and permitted toe-in and toe-out flexibility for the first time. Additional upgrades were made to the binding posts, internal wiring, and network component specifications. Aesthetic enhancements included a Lacewood veneer finish on the LF cabinet and a high gloss Black finish on the HF cabinet. The traditional wood kick plate was replaced with a machined and anodized Aluminum version containing a Silver finish PWK logo containing a real diamond. The rear of the HF cabinet was totally enclosed with finished panels featuring display windows for a commemorative numbered plaque and the HF network. 200 pairs were produced
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You learn a lot just by following the evolution.

'borrowed' design is not a HORN!
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What is not a horn? Every modern design borrows from the pioneers.

dave
 
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