I've been running an ambient setup for years now that replaces the energy I robbed from my room by absorbing most of the early reflections. It is coming from side firing full range drivers behind the listening position and is band passed, delayed and attenuated.
With DSP the frequency content is shaped to match the direct sound. This enhances the imaging and spacial feel without clouding the original performance.The room tends to disappear and I get a more involving and exciting experience this way.
Even Linkwitz used something similar. Surround stereo system
My inspiration came from a Car audio forum where this topic was discussed (many times) to make a small space (the car) sound larger. The posts by Werewolf/Lycan, also a member here, were the main inspiration for me.
For me, it started as sort of a variation of a Hafler circuit (delayed and band passed), using L-R and R-L but at a later date I did add in some phantom energy separately. I've even added some reverb to decorrelate the signal even further. Lots of experimentation equaled lots of fun. I wouldn't want to be without it anymore. Throw in a bit of mid/side EQ or cross talk cancelation and the effect becomes even stronger.
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Sounds like there is interest play around with CTA2034 spinorama or diverse other type of directivity plots etc on ones own computer for IL10 in this case, then for info Amir share a zip-folder at each acoustic review into post 1 that include two txt-files covering hor and ver anechoic spin in 10º steps, free VituixCAD can handle that spindata after converting those two txt-files of Amir to 72 times selective txt-files (one per 10º step hor/ver), a MS Excell 2010 spreadsheet with macro can handle that conversion in one click per hor/ver txt-file of Amir's and is avaiable including guides in this link over at ASR site Quick start guide for spinorama presentations in VituixCAD using Amir's shared spindata | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum.Well crud, right there on the plot is says audiosciencereview.com... I missed that...
Below is Amir's IL10 spindata presented and printed from VituxCAD and so was the polar prints into post 314.
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I really like your ideas, and it should sound very nice.
The best part of it is it is adjustable.
No, my interest is more narrow than that... I was hoping that Patrick had discovered some fast + cheap + easy way to make those measurements and plot them ...
I am sure that from an objective standpoint, the Klippel near field scanner IS the affordable option compared to a full-size anechoic chamber. But it looks like the basic system plus a few nice options will end up in the $50,000 range... slightly higher than I want to spend on acoustic measurement gear...
Ooh i see, then suggest read up the two or three pdf manuals on VituixCAD site about using REW or Arta and measurement preparation plus the pdf manual for Vituix itself then you are up running for few hundred dollars minus time used to read up and educate, honestly all the secret is simply we got to measure that polar field at least to +/-90º or better all around out to +/-180º and feed it to a program that can handle directivity but most users is too lazy and use only on axis and hope for the rest, above is true as long as transducers are directive relative to diameter and so is the real world, could we get real omni transducers no matter the diameter we could probably better trust that simple on axis measurement. Regarding anechoic chamber not that creator of VituixCAD suggest we need that precision but there is a clever method if you make a ground plane measurement of your particular build outdoor and then take that same build indoor you can actual have yourself a Klippel NFS below few kHz in if you divide those two curves groundplane/indoor you get the room reflections and now can measure anechoic indoor by extract the room reflections for each new measurement, its just important for each whatever speaker build one needs it own set of ground plane analyze and for the indoor setup its important never move the speaker physical after rooms reflections is calculated. BTW its a pleasure thanks read posts and work from Patrick, he had from start seen how important directivity is and shared his hard work make all those measurement.
This is a useful example. I did it using headphones first then without headphones. I think the example works better with headphones.
I think this is an issue with Don Keele's CBT speakers. People see a curved speaker and think the sound is coming from the center of the arc circle, or behind the speakers, or...wherever their brain expects to hear based on the shape of the speaker.
The Brainstorm vs Green Needle video is a good example of how our expectations influences what we hear.
Green Needle or Brainstorm?🤔 What Do You Hear? - YouTube
It works if you read the words on the screen. It also works if you close your eyes and think about the word without seeing the word on the screen.
Speakers can physically control soundwave directivity, e.g. narrow vs wide. On top of that, normal psychoacoustics. In addition, we are influenced by what we expect to hear. Your biases can work in your favor as long as they aren't given priority over the physics and psychoacoustics.
I have a new pair of Infinity R162 on route. They are destined for my new girlfriend's condo, but I'll hopefully find time to swap them into my system and compare. I'm currently using an 8" woofer + 8" waveguide with a nice Celestion neo CD. I'll be curious to see how the direct radiator with a smaller WG compares.
What bothers me about the Infinity is how far apart the drivers are. I rest assured Harman / Infinity know what they're doing. But can't help wonder... They use the same cabinet as the Revel M16. The Revel's drivers are as close together as possible.
Intentional handicap? Aesthetic choice?
Anyways, big WG + CD vs small WG + Direct Radiator. I'll soon have a better idea.
Shawn
What bothers me about the Infinity is how far apart the drivers are. I rest assured Harman / Infinity know what they're doing. But can't help wonder... They use the same cabinet as the Revel M16. The Revel's drivers are as close together as possible.
Intentional handicap? Aesthetic choice?
Anyways, big WG + CD vs small WG + Direct Radiator. I'll soon have a better idea.
Shawn
I personally think in terms of differentiation rather than handicaps; manufacturers color their products to make them sound different, which consumers interpret as "better" just because they hear something different. However, in those cases you get a lot of marketing associated with the coloring: you can hear the warmth, experience the air, it's musical and gives me a shiver up my leg.
The R162 is marketed as a reference so my intuition is they did not handicap -- or color -- the speaker. The R162 is also a lower priced model so I wouldn't expect it to be colored. I'd expect them to design it so it performed as well as possible within price constraints. Personally, I'd be inclined to think a more expensive speaker is colored rather than a less expensive speaker. But you made me curious so I searched for spinoramas.
They look really close and the differences are probably just due to component quality/construction. I freaking LOVE that. It's like finding an inexpensive wine that tastes like an expensive wine. Good job, Inifinity.
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"Personally, I'd be inclined to think a more expensive speaker is colored rather than a less expensive speaker."
I think I'd go one further and say that I want to see performance graphs on any expensive speaker. At $500 the Revel M16 looks like the tippy top of the high end to me. If a company wanted more than $500 for a similar product I'd want proof of magic (e.g. the lovingly fabricated Wilson TuneTots @ $9,800/pair.)
I think I'd go one further and say that I want to see performance graphs on any expensive speaker. At $500 the Revel M16 looks like the tippy top of the high end to me. If a company wanted more than $500 for a similar product I'd want proof of magic (e.g. the lovingly fabricated Wilson TuneTots @ $9,800/pair.)
Yes, it's nice to know they are in the same ballpark. There are some nice PEQ coeffecients available for them on the ASR review thread. I can easily implement those at home, not so much at my girlfriend's.
I have a hard time believing the driver spacing was a choice to 'colour' them in any positive way though. Unless I'm missing something then I don't see the purpose for wave lobing. In the R253 three way the spacing is tighter, likewise with the center channel.
It's too bad Infinity home audio is winding down to an apparent end. They are not offering any bookshelf models through their website anymore. It appears Harman's main hifi stable will now be JBL, Revel, And Lexicon. Revel basically gobbled up Infinity. Pour one out...
I keep thinking about John's post on the wave control being equal to the wrap around length of the il10 boxes. Interesting.. I let a pair of those slip through my hands last winter for a steal. Tried for the last few months to get another and eventually gave up and got these.
I have a hard time believing the driver spacing was a choice to 'colour' them in any positive way though. Unless I'm missing something then I don't see the purpose for wave lobing. In the R253 three way the spacing is tighter, likewise with the center channel.
It's too bad Infinity home audio is winding down to an apparent end. They are not offering any bookshelf models through their website anymore. It appears Harman's main hifi stable will now be JBL, Revel, And Lexicon. Revel basically gobbled up Infinity. Pour one out...
I keep thinking about John's post on the wave control being equal to the wrap around length of the il10 boxes. Interesting.. I let a pair of those slip through my hands last winter for a steal. Tried for the last few months to get another and eventually gave up and got these.
Like you, I have a two-way speaker on it's way to me, be here the 9th. I ordered one JBL 305P MkII because I read this thread and got interested in the M2 waveguide.
It is bi-amped (41W each) with an active crossover. I'm going to measure it with a mic then pull the active portion out and individually DSP/equalize each driver to see what happens. Get the AC power supply out of the box too. Finally, brace the cabinet a little.
I want to see if it can perform like that Revel M16 with only a little bit of work.
It is bi-amped (41W each) with an active crossover. I'm going to measure it with a mic then pull the active portion out and individually DSP/equalize each driver to see what happens. Get the AC power supply out of the box too. Finally, brace the cabinet a little.
I want to see if it can perform like that Revel M16 with only a little bit of work.
In terms of DSP, I have a hard time believing there’s much more to be had than the engineers at JBL were able to squeeze out of it. It is an active speaker after all.
The more I listen and work with speakers, the more I think that the best speaker pattern is narrower (90deg or so) coverage in the midrange but wide coverage maybe even omni in the high treble. With a wide pattern in the midrange, clarity and possibility of intimacy suffer. But with narrow coverage angle in the treble ambience suffers. When listening to musicians in a room, treble does come from around you, expressing space. But with narrow HF, speakers become too easy to locate and they can sound like speakers. So having HF come at you from different directions is more realistic (to me, at least), and preventing the larger wavelengths from reflecting (and interfering?) makes midrange seem more real.
Of course nature doesn't like to work that way, narrower coverage is easy to get at high frequencies but tricky to do at low or mid frequencies.
Anyone else feel this way?
Of course nature doesn't like to work that way, narrower coverage is easy to get at high frequencies but tricky to do at low or mid frequencies.
Anyone else feel this way?
Possibly. That's what I'm going to find out.
I should expand on that. Read this quote from Floyd Toole in chapter 18.4 in his book Sound Reproduction.
Yes, the JBL engineers do their job but the drivers aren't perfect replications of the engineering specs.
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