Hi,
I'm sure you don't, but you don't learn much polishing a turd.
Can you make that BSR better ? Of course you can. Anything
you do is very unlikely to make it worse. Is it worth it and are
you really learning about building / modding turntables ?
Clearly fitting a Linn arm and beefing up the plinth and platter
will improve a POS immensely, but its still a POS, and nowhere
near the sort of performance IMO a tuned turntable can do.
YMMV but your right I don't get stuff that makes no sense
to me, doesn't have to fit in with my views, just make sense.
I'm not knocking your efforts, at all, I've just pointed out
there may be a more considered approach to the problem.
rgds, sreten.
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Well my learning curve has a much has a much wider arc than most so with the little knowledge I have, progressing with this project has given me a little more info. I've never worked with an idler before so playing with this has been an experience.
I do not doubt I could do more with better materials, a better starting point, better tools, more investment etc etc but I don't have them. The challenge for me, which may well be senseless to someone else with a bigger budget, more knowledge, better equipment, was to take something I have and make it better. This has been done. Sticking on any arm would be an improvement to the plastic crap that it came with. I had the Linn so I used it to get it playing but the arm itself doesn't make the whole thing work. I will be adding a second DIY arm and dealing with the challenges that that throws up, researching a little more on that and adding a little more to my experiences.
Improving what I had to work with, cheaply was my aim and that has been accomplished. It now plays well and even though underneath lies a turd I have no problem with that as it has been improved and its performance and looks for £40 is, in my opinion, very pleasing. I would like to have opinions of those with greater knowledge on its performance, and would happily invite anyone over for a coffee and a chat but for now will enjoy sticking on my LP's and listening to my music.
Senseless though it may be, and totally without commitment, what would you have done with this challenge if it was presented to you? Please this is not a 'go on you do better' thing I would honestly like to hear your suggestions on where you might go with it if it was presented to you as a fun workshop project.
For those of us that Are actually polishing turds, what you have done is commendable.
As you said before squiffy If you had something better to start with…..
& the things you learn with this one will stand you in good stead for any future projects.
& as squiffy says sreten, with the same ingredients & tools what would you do?
As you said before squiffy If you had something better to start with…..
& the things you learn with this one will stand you in good stead for any future projects.
& as squiffy says sreten, with the same ingredients & tools what would you do?
ok, I'll take the bait...
all: I've been thinking about how best to respond to everyone regarding this thread (lately). I'll then address those who should be addressed.
Firstly, this thread has been intended to provide the stimulus to those of us that have POS turntables to improve them to better performance (or rather perhaps not what most folks would aspire to, given an unlimited or larger budget to work with). To this end Squiffy's project seems to be the only one that is completed and he is satisfied. That should be enough. And I am sure no one will be buying up all of the old POS BSRs and similar to create a skyrocketing market for them. I know this because I have spoken (on the telephone) to the Lenco builder/tuner Jean Nantais. In his case his intent was never to have old Lenco prices go to where they are now in North America. He encouraged me (and anyone else) to use whatever inexpensive turntable they could get their hands on (or had) for the basis for a project. He was willing to accept that many "turds" could be "polished" into something much better than they had a right to. For example, based on his experiences, (he started with modifying a Miracod "junk" idler), I asked him his opinion regarding the Garrard and Dual changers. He thought a changer converted to single play might be a great place to start for someone without a "great" turntable. He suggested that a Dual (for example) should be competitive with any USD sub $2000 table.
Secondly: It seems to me that Squiffy is the only one who has completed his project. I think it looks great, and no doubt sounds quite good. And remember his total budget was only £40 (which is similar to my Sugden Connoisseur BD1 complete budget of less than CAD $100). He is enjoying it and marvelling at how good it does sound. He likes the looks, and his wife is accepting of it. I don't think he would suggest that it cannot be improved (like adding a larger and heavier platter to the existing BSR one). And if he has an RB300 that he got for free, why not give it a try?
Thirdly:
Regarding sreten. We should look deeper than what appears on the surface of his comments. There is some value there. I may not like the "tone" of what he says, and I disagree with some of his comments. If the only thing that he does is try to keep us honest, so be it. There is value in that alone. It should make us pause and make sure we understand what it is we are doing.
And a response to sreten directly
Please do a little research on the success of a plinth that the late Terry Cain (Cain&Cain loudspeakers) had designed and built for the TD124 turntable. Squiffy's is constructed using similar materials in a similar fashion. Can it be improved? No doubt, but a great place to start. Using isolating feet between the two plinths should be considered, and (perhaps) some sort of damping material to the tt metal plate and the bottom of the top plate of the plinth. So although Squiffy may not have done the engineering, he was/is willing to at least try a plinth style that has worked for some in the past.
I agree that Squiffy's project turntable looks good. Good for him and the missus. More importantly, he is pleased with the sound (which is of course a very subjective judgment). I guess all the folks who love their OB speakers and full-ranger drivers (as in wide-band, single driver) can't possibly enjoy them if they don't "get" the physics or engineering behind them, or can't possibly be getting anything approaching full range sound from a single driver. THE OB speakers can excite the baffle panel but it is countered by an out of phase radiation reward. The energy that must be damped in any kind of boxed speaker is simply not there. There is a lack of bass impact, but not bass frequency depth (even without any equalization). This is the same principle that is used in a split plinth design. Again, it hardly matters whether Squiffy "gets" the design principle originally used. To him and others simply being able to demonstrate them is a learning (and eye opening) experience.
Now regarding my comments "on the fly" and sreten's response:
I've had an Ariston RD11 apart, and it used the same motor as its contemporary cousin, the LP12, did at the time (a 115 V AC synchronous "Airpax"). There were no resistors in the basic hook-up circuit for the motor and the motor was fine. And it has never burnt any wiring or smoked any components (capacitors). Now regarding perhaps using a resistor to drop the voltage, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do that unless the resistor being used was suitably large enough to dissipate the heat.
I hope that clarrifies a few things.
all: I've been thinking about how best to respond to everyone regarding this thread (lately). I'll then address those who should be addressed.
Firstly, this thread has been intended to provide the stimulus to those of us that have POS turntables to improve them to better performance (or rather perhaps not what most folks would aspire to, given an unlimited or larger budget to work with). To this end Squiffy's project seems to be the only one that is completed and he is satisfied. That should be enough. And I am sure no one will be buying up all of the old POS BSRs and similar to create a skyrocketing market for them. I know this because I have spoken (on the telephone) to the Lenco builder/tuner Jean Nantais. In his case his intent was never to have old Lenco prices go to where they are now in North America. He encouraged me (and anyone else) to use whatever inexpensive turntable they could get their hands on (or had) for the basis for a project. He was willing to accept that many "turds" could be "polished" into something much better than they had a right to. For example, based on his experiences, (he started with modifying a Miracod "junk" idler), I asked him his opinion regarding the Garrard and Dual changers. He thought a changer converted to single play might be a great place to start for someone without a "great" turntable. He suggested that a Dual (for example) should be competitive with any USD sub $2000 table.
Secondly: It seems to me that Squiffy is the only one who has completed his project. I think it looks great, and no doubt sounds quite good. And remember his total budget was only £40 (which is similar to my Sugden Connoisseur BD1 complete budget of less than CAD $100). He is enjoying it and marvelling at how good it does sound. He likes the looks, and his wife is accepting of it. I don't think he would suggest that it cannot be improved (like adding a larger and heavier platter to the existing BSR one). And if he has an RB300 that he got for free, why not give it a try?
Thirdly:
Regarding sreten. We should look deeper than what appears on the surface of his comments. There is some value there. I may not like the "tone" of what he says, and I disagree with some of his comments. If the only thing that he does is try to keep us honest, so be it. There is value in that alone. It should make us pause and make sure we understand what it is we are doing.
And a response to sreten directly
Please do a little research on the success of a plinth that the late Terry Cain (Cain&Cain loudspeakers) had designed and built for the TD124 turntable. Squiffy's is constructed using similar materials in a similar fashion. Can it be improved? No doubt, but a great place to start. Using isolating feet between the two plinths should be considered, and (perhaps) some sort of damping material to the tt metal plate and the bottom of the top plate of the plinth. So although Squiffy may not have done the engineering, he was/is willing to at least try a plinth style that has worked for some in the past.
I agree that Squiffy's project turntable looks good. Good for him and the missus. More importantly, he is pleased with the sound (which is of course a very subjective judgment). I guess all the folks who love their OB speakers and full-ranger drivers (as in wide-band, single driver) can't possibly enjoy them if they don't "get" the physics or engineering behind them, or can't possibly be getting anything approaching full range sound from a single driver. THE OB speakers can excite the baffle panel but it is countered by an out of phase radiation reward. The energy that must be damped in any kind of boxed speaker is simply not there. There is a lack of bass impact, but not bass frequency depth (even without any equalization). This is the same principle that is used in a split plinth design. Again, it hardly matters whether Squiffy "gets" the design principle originally used. To him and others simply being able to demonstrate them is a learning (and eye opening) experience.
Now regarding my comments "on the fly" and sreten's response:
I've had an Ariston RD11 apart, and it used the same motor as its contemporary cousin, the LP12, did at the time (a 115 V AC synchronous "Airpax"). There were no resistors in the basic hook-up circuit for the motor and the motor was fine. And it has never burnt any wiring or smoked any components (capacitors). Now regarding perhaps using a resistor to drop the voltage, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't do that unless the resistor being used was suitably large enough to dissipate the heat.
Yes and that was/is my point. All I need is a 24V AC supply that can deliver enough current. The motors were 7 Watts. I obviously need to check the motor in the STD to see what it actually is. If a dead 24V, I have a (quite) good Crouzet here that is suitable or a couple of DC motors, or even a trio of stepper motors (as per Altmann's DIY turntable), all of which could be pressed into service. I am surely not an LP12 "expert" by any stretch.
I hope that clarrifies a few things.
Stew, a very good summery of the views that are coming across. As I mentioned earlier I am appreciative of Sretens knowledge if only it could come to the fore in a positive manner and not seem as though its an attack on an individual or the efforts being made. I have seen a number of posts not just on this thread and it always seems to be in the same style and I'm sure it's not meant to be. I guess some people just have a way about them that makes them seem abrasive to others. As said it takes all sorts.
I had thought about the dampening of the top plinth supports, maybe rubber washes at the ends of the legs or going with the sprung leg idea. Dampening between the deck and the plinth I hadn't considered as its a tight secure fit but its worth trying. I had thought about adding soft dampening pads to the top of the supports adding a cushion to the top plinth.
It's far from complete but what I still have to do is mainly out of sight and I can always make changes and try things to make it better.
I had thought about the dampening of the top plinth supports, maybe rubber washes at the ends of the legs or going with the sprung leg idea. Dampening between the deck and the plinth I hadn't considered as its a tight secure fit but its worth trying. I had thought about adding soft dampening pads to the top of the supports adding a cushion to the top plinth.
It's far from complete but what I still have to do is mainly out of sight and I can always make changes and try things to make it better.
oops, a couple of minor things (errors?)...
Squiffy: I can't remember the tonearm that you have, but is it a Rega? or a Linn Basic? I can't remember. Damping the steel BSR top plate can be done easily enough, should any "buzz" be occurring (whether we can hear it or not). So too can the platter. The top plate of the plinth can also be damped, but most probably doesn't need it. Between the two plinth plates (cutting boards), it would be good to consider some sort of spike feet, marbles, whatever you have that can be put into service that have a low contact area on at least one side. A quick and dirty solution would be a a few marbles. Locate the spot for them and begin to drill a hole. Then use plasticine or Blu-tak or similar (or not) to hold the marbles from rolling around. Best if done on the top of the bottom surface. Nothing else should be required AFAIK.
And that is the beauty of having almost nothing invested in a project turntable. It can become the testbed for developing other ideas or improvements. The fact that you've become interested and motivated to bring the best out of a "pig's ear" will provide you with personal insight. This self-edification is the biggest payoff that is possible in the DIY audio world. Almost universally, until you know for yourself, it is hard to comprehend the extent that something as simple as a 2 layered plinth can ( but not always) bring.
Rather than fill the thread with other stuff, I'll PM Squiffy on something W-A-Y out there (not turntable related) for his consideration which will require a significant investment that will blow his mind (or his missus' for sure
).
Squiffy: I can't remember the tonearm that you have, but is it a Rega? or a Linn Basic? I can't remember. Damping the steel BSR top plate can be done easily enough, should any "buzz" be occurring (whether we can hear it or not). So too can the platter. The top plate of the plinth can also be damped, but most probably doesn't need it. Between the two plinth plates (cutting boards), it would be good to consider some sort of spike feet, marbles, whatever you have that can be put into service that have a low contact area on at least one side. A quick and dirty solution would be a a few marbles. Locate the spot for them and begin to drill a hole. Then use plasticine or Blu-tak or similar (or not) to hold the marbles from rolling around. Best if done on the top of the bottom surface. Nothing else should be required AFAIK.
I highly recommend against using the spring set-up on the support legs if using the stock style compression springs (so they push upwards against the top plinth). This is something that will be inherently unstable. Try to vertically balance a broom stick on the end of your finger. Now pinch the broom stick while allowing the mass of the brook head to dangle below your hand. Which is more stable? Hanging is much more stable than "pushing". This is the method that many more modern turntables use rather than the old idlers.
And that is the beauty of having almost nothing invested in a project turntable. It can become the testbed for developing other ideas or improvements. The fact that you've become interested and motivated to bring the best out of a "pig's ear" will provide you with personal insight. This self-edification is the biggest payoff that is possible in the DIY audio world. Almost universally, until you know for yourself, it is hard to comprehend the extent that something as simple as a 2 layered plinth can ( but not always) bring.
Rather than fill the thread with other stuff, I'll PM Squiffy on something W-A-Y out there (not turntable related) for his consideration which will require a significant investment that will blow his mind (or his missus' for sure
).Woohoo looking forwards to the pm 🙂
I've salvaged from work a gel wrist rest ( I work for a firm of solicitors ) and intend to have a play with this over the break. I see what you mean about the sprung legs. At the moment there is no buzzing no hum just the very faintest motor/idler noise and I'm not sure if I should even be noticing that its so faint but if that goes then a further improvement is accomplished 🙂
As for blowing the misses oo err Stew 😉
I've salvaged from work a gel wrist rest ( I work for a firm of solicitors ) and intend to have a play with this over the break. I see what you mean about the sprung legs. At the moment there is no buzzing no hum just the very faintest motor/idler noise and I'm not sure if I should even be noticing that its so faint but if that goes then a further improvement is accomplished 🙂
As for blowing the misses oo err Stew 😉
Hi,
FWIW If it comes across as negative I simply would not
use that BSR as a starting point, it really is honesty.
Yes you can massively improve it from a low starting
point, but my experience of modding has convinced
me that "a deck has to know it limitations" and that
the level of modification has to suit the turntable.
You can't get past the limitations, and they will progressively
stymie the more ambitious attempts to improve the turntable.
Not that improvements don't work, its how much they work.
Idlers cannot be painted with the same brush, say
versus belt drives or direct drivers, as they vary
in motor and main bearing arrangements.
There is not a set of things to do to all turntables.
What is worth doing depends IMO on the turntable.
rgds, sreten.
For the cost of a used Linn LVX(+) or Rega RB arm
there are loads of turntables about half the price you
could butcher for the running gear of the turntable.
FWIW If it comes across as negative I simply would not
use that BSR as a starting point, it really is honesty.
Yes you can massively improve it from a low starting
point, but my experience of modding has convinced
me that "a deck has to know it limitations" and that
the level of modification has to suit the turntable.
You can't get past the limitations, and they will progressively
stymie the more ambitious attempts to improve the turntable.
Not that improvements don't work, its how much they work.
Idlers cannot be painted with the same brush, say
versus belt drives or direct drivers, as they vary
in motor and main bearing arrangements.
There is not a set of things to do to all turntables.
What is worth doing depends IMO on the turntable.
rgds, sreten.
For the cost of a used Linn LVX(+) or Rega RB arm
there are loads of turntables about half the price you
could butcher for the running gear of the turntable.
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Sreten, that is an honest positive reply and, for a change, has not come across as if you're having a pop at my approach. 🙂
I do understand your view point, I know the BSR has its limitations, as do I and I fully accept a better option would be to work with a better quality starting point. Another project will use a different approach. What I have done is limited to what I have but I will still try a few additional things within the limitations of the deck and will still be using my throw away finds (the gel wrist rest for example) As you say it's not that they will not work it's just if its worth trying on something that is so low level. If I was looking at going out and paying high cost for, say, Sorbofone (?) dampening material or fancy spiked feet then it would be pointless in what it might cost for what I have. I'd save them for a better project.
My simple approach to this project has been to improve what I have and I do feel that I have done that. I've used my ideas with the limitations of a next to nothing budget and produced mods that suit this turntable.
One question that I have been pondering. As it sits at the moment, with the two layered plinth, the motor hangs in an open space. Would it improve if it was encased? This could be done with either a thin ply board and simple frame built within the gap between the two layers or cutting a well into the lower shelf and losing the leg supports making a solid plinth. This option would change the design, obviously, and, for me, probably not the way to go ( I like the look of the two layered approach) but I'm curious as to benefits an enclosure offers and the reasons why. Most plinths are enclosed boxes.
I do understand your view point, I know the BSR has its limitations, as do I and I fully accept a better option would be to work with a better quality starting point. Another project will use a different approach. What I have done is limited to what I have but I will still try a few additional things within the limitations of the deck and will still be using my throw away finds (the gel wrist rest for example) As you say it's not that they will not work it's just if its worth trying on something that is so low level. If I was looking at going out and paying high cost for, say, Sorbofone (?) dampening material or fancy spiked feet then it would be pointless in what it might cost for what I have. I'd save them for a better project.
My simple approach to this project has been to improve what I have and I do feel that I have done that. I've used my ideas with the limitations of a next to nothing budget and produced mods that suit this turntable.
One question that I have been pondering. As it sits at the moment, with the two layered plinth, the motor hangs in an open space. Would it improve if it was encased? This could be done with either a thin ply board and simple frame built within the gap between the two layers or cutting a well into the lower shelf and losing the leg supports making a solid plinth. This option would change the design, obviously, and, for me, probably not the way to go ( I like the look of the two layered approach) but I'm curious as to benefits an enclosure offers and the reasons why. Most plinths are enclosed boxes.
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Alright...Sreten, you have the Talk...Show us your Walk...I've Polished my Garrard AT60 Nice and Shiny...With Stew's UniPivot Arm, and with a Marble Platter it's a Great Idler...For all of $100..What have You Made??
Attachments
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Sled108!
What is the contraption standing right in front of the circular glassplate on the photo?
Steen
What is the contraption standing right in front of the circular glassplate on the photo?
Steen
It's an Articulated Feeler Gauge...I use that to Cast a Shadow on the Strobe Disc...And, to be sure that the Marble Platter spun True...
This is Stew's UniPivot Arm, but with Out Riggers...Made from a Carbon Arrow Shaft, with a 300 Gram Brass Weight as the Base, and a Hand Carved Mountain Laurel Headshell...
Happy Holidays to All...
Attachments
sleds arm...
... looks great (as I posted in the tonearm thread). I really dislike carbon fibre for a number of reasons, and with the counter-weight that sled is using, there is no need for the outrigger weights, although they do make setting the azimuth a little easier.
Still wanting to make a modified version of sled's headshell as an experiment (I want the option of using a "0" offset, and negative overhang).
... looks great (as I posted in the tonearm thread). I really dislike carbon fibre for a number of reasons, and with the counter-weight that sled is using, there is no need for the outrigger weights, although they do make setting the azimuth a little easier.
Still wanting to make a modified version of sled's headshell as an experiment (I want the option of using a "0" offset, and negative overhang).
Current Favourite Deck
Hello Everyone. Here are pictures of my current 'favourite' deck. It started life as an LP12. The bearing, sub platter and two outer platters are all LP12 sourced. The top platter is delrin. Motor is a Maxon DC with separate power supply. Drive is via one fine silk thread. The whole lot sits on two slate slabs (bottom one needs a little finishing off).
Arm is my version of the WTL arm-one word superb-see my contributions to the WTL debate. Cartridge currently an AT OC5
How does the whole set up sound? Better than anything I've previously had by a country mile! It hasn't been cheap to build but then again, considering the quality of performance, it's not been expensive to build.
Hello Everyone. Here are pictures of my current 'favourite' deck. It started life as an LP12. The bearing, sub platter and two outer platters are all LP12 sourced. The top platter is delrin. Motor is a Maxon DC with separate power supply. Drive is via one fine silk thread. The whole lot sits on two slate slabs (bottom one needs a little finishing off).
Arm is my version of the WTL arm-one word superb-see my contributions to the WTL debate. Cartridge currently an AT OC5
How does the whole set up sound? Better than anything I've previously had by a country mile! It hasn't been cheap to build but then again, considering the quality of performance, it's not been expensive to build.
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