Well, the amazing work you've done in this long incredible thread are okay and all - but I gotta say that I just want that floor. 😀
I've just started down the whole room measurement/equalization/correction route (in no little way inspired by this thread) and I think I got a bit of work ahead of me. We have a fairly open architecture and the listening area is large and irregular shaped but not so irregular that there aren't some very notable bass resonances - one of which pops up right where I want the sub crossover to be.
In any case, thanks for all the information and ideas you are throwing out here and thanks to everyone else for carrying the discussion forward.
-b
I've just started down the whole room measurement/equalization/correction route (in no little way inspired by this thread) and I think I got a bit of work ahead of me. We have a fairly open architecture and the listening area is large and irregular shaped but not so irregular that there aren't some very notable bass resonances - one of which pops up right where I want the sub crossover to be.
In any case, thanks for all the information and ideas you are throwing out here and thanks to everyone else for carrying the discussion forward.
-b
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I'll give you the recipe: solid oak floor boards with a Brasil brown oil... 🙂
Easy to maintain, we still love the look.
Easy to maintain, we still love the look.
I notice my patience is running out when I scan the internet for random stories and pictures about sound systems... A hunger that can't be stopped...
I've read all the threads in the loudspeaker forums that usually satisfy my hunger, but lately the forum seems slow. Not enough new wild ideas or theories that can feed my need for more information 🙂. The temperatures are low outside, meaning working in my non heated garage is out. Still some tidying up to do on the damping panels but that will be it this weekend.
Scanning the internet didn't help either... I need some music! Music I can feel, drown myself in... so headphones are out. Lately I've had a lot of tunes spinning in my head. The sad part? They aren't the tunes I like! Just random songs I've heard at some point in my life...
I've read all the threads in the loudspeaker forums that usually satisfy my hunger, but lately the forum seems slow. Not enough new wild ideas or theories that can feed my need for more information 🙂. The temperatures are low outside, meaning working in my non heated garage is out. Still some tidying up to do on the damping panels but that will be it this weekend.
Scanning the internet didn't help either... I need some music! Music I can feel, drown myself in... so headphones are out. Lately I've had a lot of tunes spinning in my head. The sad part? They aren't the tunes I like! Just random songs I've heard at some point in my life...
If you are bored, just send me a message. I can write non stop for hours on end. I can't promise it won't make you even ore bored though.
Even though my garage (from 1936) is heated, it barely keeps the heat inside. I bit the bullet and bought an extra electrical space heater (my garage is heated by geothermal water). Electricity is probably a bit cheaper up here than in mainland Europe, but I know I will regret this later. It is not terribly cold here, but it is freezing and the wind can get quite powerful from time to time. A poorly built, and barely isolated shed does not stand a chance.
I took apart my old Dali 606 speakers and "fixed" them in order to have some sound in the garage. They use modified versions of VIFA drivers which makes it hard to find spares at a decent price. I glued them up a bit, instead of throwing everything away. It sounds ok, I have a lot of power on hand so I can make it sound big and dynamic with a bit of basic EQ, but I still need a decent DAC. Currently using Schiit Fulla.
I did some measurements and my arrays will not fit at all in my garage. So, in order to make line arrays from scratch you first have to invent the universe.
The council has approved my new garage, which will be a bit taller (and warmer). But getting contractors is not that easy. Did anyone say built in corner arrays? (Just kidding... I think)
Even though my garage (from 1936) is heated, it barely keeps the heat inside. I bit the bullet and bought an extra electrical space heater (my garage is heated by geothermal water). Electricity is probably a bit cheaper up here than in mainland Europe, but I know I will regret this later. It is not terribly cold here, but it is freezing and the wind can get quite powerful from time to time. A poorly built, and barely isolated shed does not stand a chance.
I took apart my old Dali 606 speakers and "fixed" them in order to have some sound in the garage. They use modified versions of VIFA drivers which makes it hard to find spares at a decent price. I glued them up a bit, instead of throwing everything away. It sounds ok, I have a lot of power on hand so I can make it sound big and dynamic with a bit of basic EQ, but I still need a decent DAC. Currently using Schiit Fulla.
I did some measurements and my arrays will not fit at all in my garage. So, in order to make line arrays from scratch you first have to invent the universe.
The council has approved my new garage, which will be a bit taller (and warmer). But getting contractors is not that easy. Did anyone say built in corner arrays? (Just kidding... I think)
Hi Drengur:
I had the opposite problem with my garage in Florida - had to air condition it to make it usable. Cover the insulation with fabric instead of wall board and you will have built in absorbers. Corner line arrays work well; just flank them with absorbers.
I had the opposite problem with my garage in Florida - had to air condition it to make it usable. Cover the insulation with fabric instead of wall board and you will have built in absorbers. Corner line arrays work well; just flank them with absorbers.
You are welcome up here if you need to cool down. I guess we live in two rather extreme climates. That being said, the largest hailstones I have experienced were in Holland/Netherlands some 25-30 years ago. So I was not surprised wesayso was rocking a metal ceiling!
I would consider built-in corner arrays if I was set on having a dedicated room for only this one purpose. But I feel much more comfortable with a movable pair of speakers.
Quite a hassle to have to build a garage to be able to build your arrays 😀.
Meanwhile I'm finishing up my new curtains/absorbing panels...
Here's the one that goes next to the couch:
I don't think I've ever shown them before as they were always hidden behind curtains...
This one is 3" in thickness with only a slight air gap between it and the wall behind it. There's wool felt on the back of it as well. It doesn't go all the way down to the floor as it is parked beside the couch. A gap around a wall output socket as you have to live with what you've got 😀.
This one is ready to go up permanently, I only need to wait for my helper to get it there. I'll fix it to the wall in two places up high.
The curtains by themselves did a very good job to remove the echo from the room. The panels are needed for the speaker hobby, as they will do more absorbing in the mid range, leveling out the indirect sound quite a bit.
Meanwhile I'm finishing up my new curtains/absorbing panels...
Here's the one that goes next to the couch:
I don't think I've ever shown them before as they were always hidden behind curtains...
This one is 3" in thickness with only a slight air gap between it and the wall behind it. There's wool felt on the back of it as well. It doesn't go all the way down to the floor as it is parked beside the couch. A gap around a wall output socket as you have to live with what you've got 😀.
This one is ready to go up permanently, I only need to wait for my helper to get it there. I'll fix it to the wall in two places up high.
The curtains by themselves did a very good job to remove the echo from the room. The panels are needed for the speaker hobby, as they will do more absorbing in the mid range, leveling out the indirect sound quite a bit.
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By the way, there was no good reason to have a metal ceiling indoors 😀. Not even for hailstones.... One of the previous inhabitants had done it to conceal the old and damaged ceiling made of reed and gypsum...
It wasn't damaged this much, but it had been tampered with so it had to go. Sticking a metal ceiling underneath probably was the easy way. We didn't like that decision so we turned it back to what it originally looked like using newer materials 😉.
It wasn't damaged this much, but it had been tampered with so it had to go. Sticking a metal ceiling underneath probably was the easy way. We didn't like that decision so we turned it back to what it originally looked like using newer materials 😉.
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>I need some music! Music I can feel, drown myself in...
Perhaps the nice looking electric guitar shown in some of your room photos is in need of a little attention. A couple buddy's on bass and drums just might warm up that garage ;')
Perhaps the nice looking electric guitar shown in some of your room photos is in need of a little attention. A couple buddy's on bass and drums just might warm up that garage ;')
^^
Coming here to follow your thread. Posting this to get notifications, when a new post would happen here.
Coming here to follow your thread. Posting this to get notifications, when a new post would happen here.
Continuing from mabat's thread...
[1] Surround from Stereo
[2] Multichannel matrix surround decoders for two-eared listeners
[3] Surround: The Current Technological Situation
I do all my signal processing in a program I wrote (very imaginatively named, I might add 🙄), designed to run under Linux or other UNIX-like system. It can be run as a standalone program or loaded as a LADSPA plugin.
My surround speakers are currently a bipole design using two TC9FD18-08 each. These are a bit limited in SPL capability compared to my main speakers, which you can see here, but nonetheless seem good enough for the time being. I'm planning to upgrade the surrounds before too long, but I can't justify the cost at the moment (currently unemployed 😱).
Well, it's not possible to fully describe without a very long post... The ideas behind it come from David Griesinger of Lexicon, who is the principal author of the Logic7 algorithm. I think the best way to show what I'm doing is to point you to some relevant material from Griesinger himself:
[1] Surround from Stereo
[2] Multichannel matrix surround decoders for two-eared listeners
[3] Surround: The Current Technological Situation
I do all my signal processing in a program I wrote (very imaginatively named, I might add 🙄), designed to run under Linux or other UNIX-like system. It can be run as a standalone program or loaded as a LADSPA plugin.
My surround speakers are currently a bipole design using two TC9FD18-08 each. These are a bit limited in SPL capability compared to my main speakers, which you can see here, but nonetheless seem good enough for the time being. I'm planning to upgrade the surrounds before too long, but I can't justify the cost at the moment (currently unemployed 😱).
Thanks for the reply, I was just browsing through Griesinger's papers (again) myself to see if what I use currently is the way forward and what I've missed so far.
I was just about to post a link to one of the papers: http://www.davidgriesinger.com/threedpm.pdf which explains in detail the theory behind depth and envelopment. Griesinger really gives us a wealth of information 🙂.
I'll study your links tomorrow, got to sleep at some point (lol).
Very cool you have build your own plugin based on Griesinger's theories! Look forward to learn more about it.
It feels like I took a shortcut by just using one of the Lexicon reverbs written by Griesinger (and used in Logic 7 I believe).
(lol) I got a small preview and the 3rd paper you linked is the same I was reading tonight.
I was just about to post a link to one of the papers: http://www.davidgriesinger.com/threedpm.pdf which explains in detail the theory behind depth and envelopment. Griesinger really gives us a wealth of information 🙂.
I'll study your links tomorrow, got to sleep at some point (lol).
Very cool you have build your own plugin based on Griesinger's theories! Look forward to learn more about it.
It feels like I took a shortcut by just using one of the Lexicon reverbs written by Griesinger (and used in Logic 7 I believe).
(lol) I got a small preview and the 3rd paper you linked is the same I was reading tonight.
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Thanks! My program is mostly for implementing crossovers, EQ, etc. The matrix upmixer effect is a recent addition.
My upmixer design is, very broadly speaking, a copy of Logic7 (what has been publicly described, at least...), but without a center channel and without consideration of encoded material (in other words, specifically intended for "plain stereo" recordings). The main difference there is that I assume that no correlated (direct) sounds are intended to come from behind the listener. For cinema sound decoding, you obviously have to consider that case. I've never heard the "real thing", so I don't know how close my implementation gets. Hopefully I'm not infringing on any patents. The patents covering the basic stuff are expired, but there's still an active patent related to sound event detection. I've tried going through the claims, but the way they're written is rather confusing...
To my knowledge, Logic7 does not add any reverberation.
My upmixer design is, very broadly speaking, a copy of Logic7 (what has been publicly described, at least...), but without a center channel and without consideration of encoded material (in other words, specifically intended for "plain stereo" recordings). The main difference there is that I assume that no correlated (direct) sounds are intended to come from behind the listener. For cinema sound decoding, you obviously have to consider that case. I've never heard the "real thing", so I don't know how close my implementation gets. Hopefully I'm not infringing on any patents. The patents covering the basic stuff are expired, but there's still an active patent related to sound event detection. I've tried going through the claims, but the way they're written is rather confusing...
To my knowledge, Logic7 does not add any reverberation.
Hmm, you might be right about Logic 7 and reverb. That's probably an idea that I picked up from a former JBL employee that used to frequent the car audio forums and implemented his own variant on Logic 7 in his car. The goal was to make the (car) space sound larger than it was.
It's also briefly mentioned in this paper: http://www.davidgriesinger.com/aes99.pdf as an alternative to add reverb to recordings that need it.
Sorry to read about your current employment situation, with a person with your skill set (the programming, but also your creativity creating those beautiful speakers), one would expect there should be enough chances in your (hopefully near) future. I know how it feels though, I started building my arrays when I was in a similar situation. funds were very tight!
It's also briefly mentioned in this paper: http://www.davidgriesinger.com/aes99.pdf as an alternative to add reverb to recordings that need it.
Sorry to read about your current employment situation, with a person with your skill set (the programming, but also your creativity creating those beautiful speakers), one would expect there should be enough chances in your (hopefully near) future. I know how it feels though, I started building my arrays when I was in a similar situation. funds were very tight!
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Thanks for the encouragement 😀
Griesinger does mention using algorithmic reverb, but on the production side (assuming I read it correctly). The potential problem, in my opinion, with adding reverb on the playback side is introducing spatial cues that are constant across all program material (although I suppose a normal reflective room does this to some extent anyway).
Griesinger does mention using algorithmic reverb, but on the production side (assuming I read it correctly). The potential problem, in my opinion, with adding reverb on the playback side is introducing spatial cues that are constant across all program material (although I suppose a normal reflective room does this to some extent anyway).
True, but the Random Hall reverb (also from the hands of Griesinger) reacts different i.m.h.o. It's certainly not the same sauce on every song, something I struggled with on most other reverbs I have tried. I did try a lot of them, mostly using the demo's to see what it could do until I got a tip from a member here on the Lexicon Random Hall algorithm.
I never looked back as this has been a welcome addition, with a different outcome on each song, not the same or similar sound signature added, but (as Griesinger mentioned in that paper) just enough to add a touch of warmth without affecting clarity. I use it sparingly, just to make my room 'sound' a little better (than it actually is). It's the only one for me (so far) that didn't attract much attention to itself.
It used to be sold separately (as a vst) a few years back, I believe it now only comes in a package deal.
I'ts excellent to be able to hide my (real) room like that, without it being obvious. Natural sounding.
Your steering of sound to the ambient channels is interesting. As the L-R and R-L just gives a mono backdrop that doesn't work that well on it's own. But it has been a good start to get an idea of what's possible. I've been content with what I have, but always curious about other solutions. 🙂
I never looked back as this has been a welcome addition, with a different outcome on each song, not the same or similar sound signature added, but (as Griesinger mentioned in that paper) just enough to add a touch of warmth without affecting clarity. I use it sparingly, just to make my room 'sound' a little better (than it actually is). It's the only one for me (so far) that didn't attract much attention to itself.
It used to be sold separately (as a vst) a few years back, I believe it now only comes in a package deal.
I'ts excellent to be able to hide my (real) room like that, without it being obvious. Natural sounding.
Your steering of sound to the ambient channels is interesting. As the L-R and R-L just gives a mono backdrop that doesn't work that well on it's own. But it has been a good start to get an idea of what's possible. I've been content with what I have, but always curious about other solutions. 🙂
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Sounds like Random Hall works much better than other algorithms for this purpose. I tried reverb with the L-R R-L signal some time ago, but I used IRs, which definitely tend to have the problem I described above.
An active matrix allows you to have high separation between the two surround channels when the input channels are mostly decorrelated energy, unlike the L-R scheme. It's also possible to cancel directional signals that are panned. The downside is that the rejection of the L+R signal isn't as good, but I haven't found this to be a problem in practice.
An active matrix allows you to have high separation between the two surround channels when the input channels are mostly decorrelated energy, unlike the L-R scheme. It's also possible to cancel directional signals that are panned. The downside is that the rejection of the L+R signal isn't as good, but I haven't found this to be a problem in practice.
Funny, the temps have just now gotten down to comfortable in my garage. It's fun to work out there now, impossible in the summer. 🙂
I admire your perseverance of making a plugin like that based on the Griesinger info. Logic 7 seems to get many favorable mentions around the web for up-mixing. Does it alter the info to the front mains in any way?
I don't think I'm going to follow your example and write a plugin any time soon 🙂. I wouldn't know where to start to be honest. The last programming I've done that was worth something was creating new functions in our 3D CAD applications and that was quite a while ago.
Maybe I'll try the waves DTS Neural plugin to extract the ambience instead of my own weird mix that is much closer to the passive Dolby results of years gone by. I could also add just a hint of reverb to taste. I can always try it as an experiment. 🙂
I'm hoping for a soft winter so I get to finish all my plans... I succeeded last year with the subwoofers and finished them almost exactly one year ago...
What are you building? 😀 Full range synergies for a start?