We watched the first movie with the new software yesterday evening. It all worked fine!
The images rendered with the new graphics card are amazingly detailed up-scaled to 4K. The sound was a very good match.
I took advantage of the downtime to optimize some DSP settings. I've also created the next experimental settings for music, based on the success of cross talk cancellation in movies. Basically it is a soft mix using a bit of EQ, cross talk cancellation and Pano's shuffler technique (sort of).
Hard to explain, time will tell if it is as successful with music as it is with Home Theater. If it is, no doubt I'll share more info.
The big difference is: Home Theater has a dedicated center mix to work with, not influenced by any cross talk problems. This "source material" is way more consistent to deal with. 2 Channel music varies a lot in the way they "deal with this problem". I should note that it is only a "problem" once the early reflections are down by quite a bit in level. That is the case in my room, as I chose to have/want it like that. Aside from this tonal balance "problem" it does have other advantages I'd hate to loose.
If what I've got right now turns out to be the end of the line of what I can achieve, I'd be perfectly happy. But this thread would't be this long if I didn't suffer from the: "what if..." syndrome.
The images rendered with the new graphics card are amazingly detailed up-scaled to 4K. The sound was a very good match.
I took advantage of the downtime to optimize some DSP settings. I've also created the next experimental settings for music, based on the success of cross talk cancellation in movies. Basically it is a soft mix using a bit of EQ, cross talk cancellation and Pano's shuffler technique (sort of).
Hard to explain, time will tell if it is as successful with music as it is with Home Theater. If it is, no doubt I'll share more info.
The big difference is: Home Theater has a dedicated center mix to work with, not influenced by any cross talk problems. This "source material" is way more consistent to deal with. 2 Channel music varies a lot in the way they "deal with this problem". I should note that it is only a "problem" once the early reflections are down by quite a bit in level. That is the case in my room, as I chose to have/want it like that. Aside from this tonal balance "problem" it does have other advantages I'd hate to loose.
If what I've got right now turns out to be the end of the line of what I can achieve, I'd be perfectly happy. But this thread would't be this long if I didn't suffer from the: "what if..." syndrome.
I've done that a lot in the past. Always trying to "better" the surround format and in some instances I managed to do that. I have a video from "David Bowie - Storytellers" that actually sounds way better using the 2 channels version with my DSP mix.
The one thing that will not happen is to have the distinct sound effects that discrete channels can provide (*). But for music that isn't a big deal.
I'm not looking for the "surround sound" per se, I'm after a fun and engaging sound that renders in a believable space. Like: being there...
Things like envelopment, spaciousness and dynamics combined with the right tonal balance. That is the recipe for My-Fi.
(*) = not including special '2 way' effects like Q-sound.
I've also got a quad recording from The Doors, I forgot the name of that recording... It features "Riders on the Storm" and has a couple of things mixed toward the ambient speakers. Like whispering voices saying: "Riders on the Storm" mixed to the back, while in the regular 2 way version one can hear those too but mixed to the mains in the faint background (up front). That recording is mixed for 4 full range sources though and shows the limit of the size of my ambient channels. It has the "toms" in the back as well and that doesn't sound that good on 2 band limited 10F drivers...
The one thing that will not happen is to have the distinct sound effects that discrete channels can provide (*). But for music that isn't a big deal.
I'm not looking for the "surround sound" per se, I'm after a fun and engaging sound that renders in a believable space. Like: being there...
Things like envelopment, spaciousness and dynamics combined with the right tonal balance. That is the recipe for My-Fi.
(*) = not including special '2 way' effects like Q-sound.
I've also got a quad recording from The Doors, I forgot the name of that recording... It features "Riders on the Storm" and has a couple of things mixed toward the ambient speakers. Like whispering voices saying: "Riders on the Storm" mixed to the back, while in the regular 2 way version one can hear those too but mixed to the mains in the faint background (up front). That recording is mixed for 4 full range sources though and shows the limit of the size of my ambient channels. It has the "toms" in the back as well and that doesn't sound that good on 2 band limited 10F drivers...
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Another movie night and lots of music... pretty sure I'm getting there. Lots of smiles per minute...
So far the balance seems to work quite well, but I'm not done yet. I still need to fine tune and see if I can get more out of it.
I haven't remeasured the sub/main channel balance per side yet and also need to re-measure the ambience channels.
I'm not in a big hurry though, as I'm "h-a-p-p-y" (just watched: Le Mans 66, Ford vs Ferrari).
I never knew this, but Vituixcad has a build in preference score check. Never used or needed it but I noticed it's use in a post.
I haven't ever tried or used the optimizer, but I figured it might be cute to see the predicted preference score from the sim results I've shown of my array of 10F's and it's filters:
Hope I did this calculation right, it doesn't look like a bad score, does it? I do get that it doesn't say all that much by itself. Personally I think there's more use in all the work I did to adjust my room plus speakers as a combined result instead of looking blindly for or at a preference rating like this and expecting the world. I still believe that is the key to succes for us DIY builders. We can control the room + speakers by choice. A speaker company needs to hope for the best, once they designed it and sell the speaker to the public, they do not control it's end use in the homes of their fresh new owners (even though I'm sure they would like to).
It's the combination that counts. But it can't hurt that a speaker like this is scoring pretty good.
It still is a compromise, like all speakers are. I'm just chasing after the best results despite the compromise I've made.
Yeah... I'm bragging a bit... just having a bit of fun here...
So far the balance seems to work quite well, but I'm not done yet. I still need to fine tune and see if I can get more out of it.
I haven't remeasured the sub/main channel balance per side yet and also need to re-measure the ambience channels.
I'm not in a big hurry though, as I'm "h-a-p-p-y" (just watched: Le Mans 66, Ford vs Ferrari).
I never knew this, but Vituixcad has a build in preference score check. Never used or needed it but I noticed it's use in a post.
I haven't ever tried or used the optimizer, but I figured it might be cute to see the predicted preference score from the sim results I've shown of my array of 10F's and it's filters:
Hope I did this calculation right, it doesn't look like a bad score, does it? I do get that it doesn't say all that much by itself. Personally I think there's more use in all the work I did to adjust my room plus speakers as a combined result instead of looking blindly for or at a preference rating like this and expecting the world. I still believe that is the key to succes for us DIY builders. We can control the room + speakers by choice. A speaker company needs to hope for the best, once they designed it and sell the speaker to the public, they do not control it's end use in the homes of their fresh new owners (even though I'm sure they would like to).
It's the combination that counts. But it can't hurt that a speaker like this is scoring pretty good.
It still is a compromise, like all speakers are. I'm just chasing after the best results despite the compromise I've made.
Yeah... I'm bragging a bit... just having a bit of fun here...
I've setup a few zones to try:
October 2022 is just the 'standard' mid/side EQ i've used for years... The one with Crosstalk added to the name is partly EQ, partly cross talk and part 'shuffler'.
The Crosstalk+ is pure crosstalk, (almost) no additional mid/side EQ. The Newtrick is a sort of cross talk, but happening a bit later in time and quickly varying in level between left and right. Summed with a time delay it fills the biggest hole created by crosstalk in the sweet spot and acts much like a (very) early reflection, but happening at a fixed time. That last bit could prevent it working right, as we usually move our head involuntarily to find the source of such a reflection. Not really by thinking about it, but just like a (listening) habit. I've thrown in a small amount of reflections (think shuffler) that can easily be turned off. I've been listening to the first "Crosstalk" zone for a few weeks and that works quite well. I want to compare a few options to see which method is worth chasing.
October 2022 is just the 'standard' mid/side EQ i've used for years... The one with Crosstalk added to the name is partly EQ, partly cross talk and part 'shuffler'.
The Crosstalk+ is pure crosstalk, (almost) no additional mid/side EQ. The Newtrick is a sort of cross talk, but happening a bit later in time and quickly varying in level between left and right. Summed with a time delay it fills the biggest hole created by crosstalk in the sweet spot and acts much like a (very) early reflection, but happening at a fixed time. That last bit could prevent it working right, as we usually move our head involuntarily to find the source of such a reflection. Not really by thinking about it, but just like a (listening) habit. I've thrown in a small amount of reflections (think shuffler) that can easily be turned off. I've been listening to the first "Crosstalk" zone for a few weeks and that works quite well. I want to compare a few options to see which method is worth chasing.
I ran the test, my son joined the quest and the mixed one, labeled 'Crosstalk' won this round (partly EQ, partly cross talk and part 'shuffler').
More 3D like than the others, in the sweet spot it's almost like madness, the sheer size of the stage. Yet it changes subtly when moving your head.
Better intelligibility (<- some day I'll learn to write that fast without the spell check) in the sweet spot. Fun all around, great fun in sweet spot.
More 3D like than the others, in the sweet spot it's almost like madness, the sheer size of the stage. Yet it changes subtly when moving your head.
Better intelligibility (<- some day I'll learn to write that fast without the spell check) in the sweet spot. Fun all around, great fun in sweet spot.
Last Friday afternoon, I found myself an opportunity to play a few songs, to test yet another slight tweak. My girl went out for an errand and I took that time to closely listen to 2 different zone setups in JRiver. I had the house to myself for about half an hour till she got back. Anyway, she wanted to play a song so I let her take control. My son joined the fun and the two of them were battling who got to choose the next track... it went on till late that night, so I think I can say it works quite well.
Still have to do measurements, I keep postponing it.. I don't have much energy, my health has been acting up and somehow that doesn't make me want to do stuff like that. (It's my stomach that's out of order due to the pills I take for my heart disease, i ends up costing me a lot of energy)
Still need to check the sub integration plus redo the ambience channels... I had much more planned but it will have to wait. I'll get back on my feet though.
Still have to do measurements, I keep postponing it.. I don't have much energy, my health has been acting up and somehow that doesn't make me want to do stuff like that. (It's my stomach that's out of order due to the pills I take for my heart disease, i ends up costing me a lot of energy)
Still need to check the sub integration plus redo the ambience channels... I had much more planned but it will have to wait. I'll get back on my feet though.
Won't know for sure if it is the new drivers or the added passive frequency dependent filtering or just up to my recent DSP tweaks, but I'm definitively back in action with the current experiments. Maybe it's a bit of everything, the 3D holographic sense is there while tonality checks out too!
My girlfriend hardly ever shows an interest to sit down and listen, when she did she said: "I'm amazed at what new things I hear in songs. I can hear each and every instrument as if it's playing by itself at it's own position."
Next up I got the order to upload her favorite CD's to disk so she can hear them.
Hard to tell what does what, but I do think the Scan Speak 10F is more well defined, shows more detail, plays cleaner. It's more of a "Diva" as well, as it made me work harder on my processing. Get a small detail wrong and it's a lot less forgiving.
Today I removed the cross talk part from my DSP settings, going back to full mid/side EQ. It is behaving way more predictable and no less fun.
I've tried full cross talk cancellation, using no mid-side EQ,
Also a combination of cross talk cancellation and mid/side EQ and...
Now back at full mid/side EQ, no cross talk cancellation, adjusted the EQ to mimic the effects of the cross talk cancellation closely.
The only difference compared to older settings is a slight touch of the shuffler Pano introduced, just done a bit different with a plugin.
This is the X@#$X time I've done this comparison, each time I end up sticking with the mid/side EQ as my favorite. The diminished room effects due to the added filters have the side effect that I get way more front to back imaging, close mic voices seem way closer than before (adjustable with the volume control). I'm guessing, but the drivers might actually play a role in that too. I don't regret trying them in any case. I'm quite happy with it's performance so far.
My girlfriend hardly ever shows an interest to sit down and listen, when she did she said: "I'm amazed at what new things I hear in songs. I can hear each and every instrument as if it's playing by itself at it's own position."
Next up I got the order to upload her favorite CD's to disk so she can hear them
.Hard to tell what does what, but I do think the Scan Speak 10F is more well defined, shows more detail, plays cleaner. It's more of a "Diva" as well, as it made me work harder on my processing. Get a small detail wrong and it's a lot less forgiving.
Today I removed the cross talk part from my DSP settings, going back to full mid/side EQ. It is behaving way more predictable and no less fun.
I've tried full cross talk cancellation, using no mid-side EQ,
Also a combination of cross talk cancellation and mid/side EQ and...
Now back at full mid/side EQ, no cross talk cancellation, adjusted the EQ to mimic the effects of the cross talk cancellation closely.
The only difference compared to older settings is a slight touch of the shuffler Pano introduced, just done a bit different with a plugin.
This is the X@#$X time I've done this comparison, each time I end up sticking with the mid/side EQ as my favorite. The diminished room effects due to the added filters have the side effect that I get way more front to back imaging, close mic voices seem way closer than before (adjustable with the volume control). I'm guessing, but the drivers might actually play a role in that too. I don't regret trying them in any case. I'm quite happy with it's performance so far
.
Just saw a picture on Insta posted by Mono and Stereo... I've seen that room before, back then it had Altec style multicel horns...
What if... they would have made the "wall horn" really big synergy style horns, on both sides.
(sort of build in Jericho horns, but more fluent and larger to play the whole spectrum...)
It wouldn't be as visually impressive as this, but I bet it could work! Ah... the rich and their toys...
What if... they would have made the "wall horn" really big synergy style horns, on both sides
.(sort of build in Jericho horns, but more fluent and larger to play the whole spectrum...)
It wouldn't be as visually impressive as this, but I bet it could work! Ah... the rich and their toys...
