A common reason for this is poor reproduction of the upper bass, lower midrange region which is responsible for tactile feel. It can be problematic because many speaker boxes will be too small to support these larger wavelength frequencies on their outer surface, and experience something called 'baffle step'. It becomes critical to position the speakers well to help manage the problem of sound from the room walls around the speaker interfering.
Yes. Once I corrected for baffle step in my crossover, instruments like double bass sounded much more real and alive.
My son plays double bass, both Jazz and Ochestral. So it was one of the instruments that I baselined around when audibly testing my speakers after each tweak. The upper registers are definitely key to getting it right, especially with the bowed bass.
My son plays double bass, both Jazz and Ochestral. So it was one of the instruments that I baselined around when audibly testing my speakers after each tweak. The upper registers are definitely key to getting it right, especially with the bowed bass.
Thank you for the comments, I find myself largely in agreement. It is so much better to hear these things from others and I generally do agree with observations. They are very perceptive indeed. I also have a pair of SVS SB-3000 Subs, still available and great value - and pair works well with Elsinores and not too hard to integrate if you got the Elsinores in the right spot, and then work on getting the SB-3000s right.
I think decent driver surface area also help. I recall that it has been said that about 300Hz is a median, that half the energy of music energy is below 300 Hertz and the rest is above. So a good amount of surface area in that power region and upper bass (and not just low bass) has long appealed to me. And yes, definitely an area where baffle step could be an issue, interesting. Get the energy balance right.
Below is a commercial speaker using the Satori 7.5" in what we might call 1 cubic footer (23L internal). It has good surface area all round without being a big speaker and decent baffle size. The tactile bass this speaker it is capable of just cannot be matched by 5.25" main driver plus dome tweeter a la LS3/5A. Actually, just now toying with the name, maybe call it NHØP, pronounced NiHOP after the late Niels-Henning Ørsted Petersen. 😎
Anybody wishing to come around to have a listen, please do. I am particularly proud of this design, the inductor drive idea has been pushed further than I have done before (and I hate the drive word, this is more about current delivery). This thing has the most boxless sound!
I think decent driver surface area also help. I recall that it has been said that about 300Hz is a median, that half the energy of music energy is below 300 Hertz and the rest is above. So a good amount of surface area in that power region and upper bass (and not just low bass) has long appealed to me. And yes, definitely an area where baffle step could be an issue, interesting. Get the energy balance right.
Below is a commercial speaker using the Satori 7.5" in what we might call 1 cubic footer (23L internal). It has good surface area all round without being a big speaker and decent baffle size. The tactile bass this speaker it is capable of just cannot be matched by 5.25" main driver plus dome tweeter a la LS3/5A. Actually, just now toying with the name, maybe call it NHØP, pronounced NiHOP after the late Niels-Henning Ørsted Petersen. 😎
Anybody wishing to come around to have a listen, please do. I am particularly proud of this design, the inductor drive idea has been pushed further than I have done before (and I hate the drive word, this is more about current delivery). This thing has the most boxless sound!
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Joe,
You are playing the NHØP speakers with a tube amp or solid state? What is the sensitivity like, and what about impedance and phase behavior?
You are playing the NHØP speakers with a tube amp or solid state? What is the sensitivity like, and what about impedance and phase behavior?
I use a tube amp called JLTi "Beyond Triode" using EL34 tubes and I get 35W into 6 Ohm.
The speakers are around 87dB and very easy to drive, flat phase and impedance (my signature) and solid state is just fine.
Below is the in-room response, two speakers summed at the listening position, so it includes room imperfections:
There is a hint of 'BBC Dip' in the response. Two versions of the speaker, Satori Papyrus and Satori Textreme, the latter will set you back a $500 premium.
The 'Dip' was not intended, it really comes down to the main driver behaviour, that kink in the response around 3KHz before the on axis response rises, but rises much less as you go off axis. It completely disappears by 30°. Carefully balancing things, I have ended up with a massive single 1.8mH inductor on the 7.5" main driver. This is more than ten times the non-linear inductance of the driver at a critical 2KHz. This gives you current-drive type benefits with any amplifier. The main advantage of so-called '"current-drive" is not that it controls the current, rather that the driver imperfections don't mess up the current of the amplifier. I believe that what "current-drive" does is being misunderstood. The main benefit is isolation and that we have a mixer at work. It is hard to explain, but I am sticking to it.
Below: The On and Off Axis Family - from SoundEasy:
Green On Axis. Red (preferred) 15° Off Axis and Olive Green 30°.
Please note, this is not a DIY speaker, at least not in the sense that the Elsinores are. They were developed for commercial reasons.
The speakers are around 87dB and very easy to drive, flat phase and impedance (my signature) and solid state is just fine.
Below is the in-room response, two speakers summed at the listening position, so it includes room imperfections:
There is a hint of 'BBC Dip' in the response. Two versions of the speaker, Satori Papyrus and Satori Textreme, the latter will set you back a $500 premium.
The 'Dip' was not intended, it really comes down to the main driver behaviour, that kink in the response around 3KHz before the on axis response rises, but rises much less as you go off axis. It completely disappears by 30°. Carefully balancing things, I have ended up with a massive single 1.8mH inductor on the 7.5" main driver. This is more than ten times the non-linear inductance of the driver at a critical 2KHz. This gives you current-drive type benefits with any amplifier. The main advantage of so-called '"current-drive" is not that it controls the current, rather that the driver imperfections don't mess up the current of the amplifier. I believe that what "current-drive" does is being misunderstood. The main benefit is isolation and that we have a mixer at work. It is hard to explain, but I am sticking to it.
Below: The On and Off Axis Family - from SoundEasy:
Green On Axis. Red (preferred) 15° Off Axis and Olive Green 30°.
Please note, this is not a DIY speaker, at least not in the sense that the Elsinores are. They were developed for commercial reasons.
Joe,
I recall you musing over an Elsinore with the Satori MW16P-8:
Any luck with that?
I recall you musing over an Elsinore with the Satori MW16P-8:
Any luck with that?
Top rear is filled, behind the Main Brace. The area in front of the Main Brace and nearer the drivers, this are lined and it should be 25mm and even up to maybe 40 mm I have gotten away with, just don't interfere with the back of the drivers. Then the area around the rear of the port must not be obstructed. Really the box layout itself is what dictates the fill and where. You want at least 60% fill and a bit more than that won't hurt.
Okay great. I will line the top of the cabinet as well. It is an immediate reflection point for the top midbass driver so it makes sense to add something there versus just bare wood. I am using roughly 25mm-30mm polyester stuffing.
For the back, I filled the cavities with loose polyester then stapled a sheet of polyester in front of it to keep it in place. The poly in the cavities is fairly loose.
Your cabinet design is very nice. I can appreciate the thought behind it.
For the back, I filled the cavities with loose polyester then stapled a sheet of polyester in front of it to keep it in place. The poly in the cavities is fairly loose.
Your cabinet design is very nice. I can appreciate the thought behind it.
What do you guys think of a foil inductor in the L2 position? I want to upgrade the standard air core inductor with something nicer. There seems to be a variety of options. Let me know if any of you guys have experience with them
Mundorfs 16awg
Mundorf Pure Copper Paper foil
Alpha Core 14awg
Geortz 14awg
Janzten Wax foil 16awg
Janzten 16arg
BTW, I finished my Elsinore's to the point that I can listen to them. They are opening up over time. I bypassed the 1.8uF tweeter Clarity CSA cap with a Russian teflon film foil cap that I had. The highs are quite nice on these speakers. So I am getting a bit of upgrad'itus...
The only thing remaining with the construction is the risers. Still waiting on parts for that. I am also thinking to try sorbothane between the pucks and the risers to isolate.
Mundorfs 16awg
Mundorf Pure Copper Paper foil
Alpha Core 14awg
Geortz 14awg
Janzten Wax foil 16awg
Janzten 16arg
BTW, I finished my Elsinore's to the point that I can listen to them. They are opening up over time. I bypassed the 1.8uF tweeter Clarity CSA cap with a Russian teflon film foil cap that I had. The highs are quite nice on these speakers. So I am getting a bit of upgrad'itus...
The only thing remaining with the construction is the risers. Still waiting on parts for that. I am also thinking to try sorbothane between the pucks and the risers to isolate.
I would offer to suggest researching the multi-sub technique.
For those who are not familiar with this, it is not about bass extension or bass quantity. It is about balance and consistency through managing room modes.
Can't disagree with that!
Yes, you can certainly try that and L2 is the obvious one to try. I don't think we have had a report of somebody trying both. I admit being old-school and I have been using Jantzen air core here and L1 4mH (or 3mH in the ULD I seem to recall) I use P-Core. The Black PCB accommodates the air core well, an foil version with similar DC resistance is a fair bit bigger, as far as I have been able to tell. So it would be needed to wire it off the PCB.
Yes, I am familiar. Actually, the bass is really really good from the Elsinores. My other speakers are the Bordeaux by Speaker Design Works. They are very good in the bass yet they don't hold a candle to the Elsinores... The bass seems effortless and potent. I used them with a SE 10w class A amp and the F5mX amp. The 10w really did surprisingly well in the bass region.
In the past, I have thought of playing with Ripole subs at one point but they are not really known for their efficiency or their impact. However, after hearing the Elsinore's line array bass, I could see making line array subs with small drivers... As of now I am not lusting after more bass but it is certainly a thought.
For multisub, I think this is a great video to start with. Anthony Grimani does a terrific job of outlining many aspects of acoustics in regards to HT, studios which tends to flow well into two channel. He has a lot of videos on the subject.
Also, Paul from PS audio talks about placing the sub in the listening chair and playing tones. You then walk around checking the response throughout the room. Once you have found the most balanced response, place the sub there. You should end up with a balanced response in the listening position. I haven't tried this but it certainly sounds like a easy trick VS the alternative.
I am going to give it a shot. It looks like there is a decent amount of space around L2. The wax and different resins in some of the foil inductors are supposed to reduce microphonics supposedly. Janzten seems like a good value. The infused inductors are not all that more expensive than standard ones.
Also, the Russian caps seem to be doing something really great to the sound. I feel as though I am getting a lot of detail. They are pretty inexpensive and not too difficult to attach with some extra wire lead onto the existing 1.8uF cap.
To all the new builders of the Elsinores.... Be forewarned that they most certainly need to be burned in. The sound is unique in a lot of great ways. It is not artificial... I have about 8 hours on them and this is the biggest change I have ever heard a speaker make over such a short duration. So if you play them for the first time and feel like writing them off, don't. At the beginning I was discouraged. Now I am elated as to how great they are sounding.
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Mikerodrig27:
Go for the foil inductor at L2. I used foil inductors (Goertz, I believe) there and in the bass section to excellent effect (see my preliminary crossover photo in Post #2407 — https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-elsinore-project-thread.97043/page-121). The tweeter section also benefits from an upgraded resistor and capacitor if you have the budget.
Regards,
Scott
Go for the foil inductor at L2. I used foil inductors (Goertz, I believe) there and in the bass section to excellent effect (see my preliminary crossover photo in Post #2407 — https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/the-elsinore-project-thread.97043/page-121). The tweeter section also benefits from an upgraded resistor and capacitor if you have the budget.
Regards,
Scott