A common reason for this is poor reproduction of the upper bass, lower midrange region which is responsible for tactile feel. It can be problematic because many speaker boxes will be too small to support these larger wavelength frequencies on their outer surface, and experience something called 'baffle step'. It becomes critical to position the speakers well to help manage the problem of sound from the room walls around the speaker interfering.
Yes. Once I corrected for baffle step in my crossover, instruments like double bass sounded much more real and alive.
My son plays double bass, both Jazz and Ochestral. So it was one of the instruments that I baselined around when audibly testing my speakers after each tweak. The upper registers are definitely key to getting it right, especially with the bowed bass.
My son plays double bass, both Jazz and Ochestral. So it was one of the instruments that I baselined around when audibly testing my speakers after each tweak. The upper registers are definitely key to getting it right, especially with the bowed bass.
Thank you for the comments, I find myself largely in agreement. It is so much better to hear these things from others and I generally do agree with observations. They are very perceptive indeed. I also have a pair of SVS SB-3000 Subs, still available and great value - and pair works well with Elsinores and not too hard to integrate if you got the Elsinores in the right spot, and then work on getting the SB-3000s right.
I think decent driver surface area also help. I recall that it has been said that about 300Hz is a median, that half the energy of music energy is below 300 Hertz and the rest is above. So a good amount of surface area in that power region and upper bass (and not just low bass) has long appealed to me. And yes, definitely an area where baffle step could be an issue, interesting. Get the energy balance right.
Below is a commercial speaker using the Satori 7.5" in what we might call 1 cubic footer (23L internal). It has good surface area all round without being a big speaker and decent baffle size. The tactile bass this speaker it is capable of just cannot be matched by 5.25" main driver plus dome tweeter a la LS3/5A. Actually, just now toying with the name, maybe call it NHØP, pronounced NiHOP after the late Niels-Henning Ørsted Petersen. 😎
Anybody wishing to come around to have a listen, please do. I am particularly proud of this design, the inductor drive idea has been pushed further than I have done before (and I hate the drive word, this is more about current delivery). This thing has the most boxless sound!
I think decent driver surface area also help. I recall that it has been said that about 300Hz is a median, that half the energy of music energy is below 300 Hertz and the rest is above. So a good amount of surface area in that power region and upper bass (and not just low bass) has long appealed to me. And yes, definitely an area where baffle step could be an issue, interesting. Get the energy balance right.
Below is a commercial speaker using the Satori 7.5" in what we might call 1 cubic footer (23L internal). It has good surface area all round without being a big speaker and decent baffle size. The tactile bass this speaker it is capable of just cannot be matched by 5.25" main driver plus dome tweeter a la LS3/5A. Actually, just now toying with the name, maybe call it NHØP, pronounced NiHOP after the late Niels-Henning Ørsted Petersen. 😎
Anybody wishing to come around to have a listen, please do. I am particularly proud of this design, the inductor drive idea has been pushed further than I have done before (and I hate the drive word, this is more about current delivery). This thing has the most boxless sound!
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Joe,
You are playing the NHØP speakers with a tube amp or solid state? What is the sensitivity like, and what about impedance and phase behavior?
You are playing the NHØP speakers with a tube amp or solid state? What is the sensitivity like, and what about impedance and phase behavior?
I use a tube amp called JLTi "Beyond Triode" using EL34 tubes and I get 35W into 6 Ohm.
The speakers are around 87dB and very easy to drive, flat phase and impedance (my signature) and solid state is just fine.
Below is the in-room response, two speakers summed at the listening position, so it includes room imperfections:
There is a hint of 'BBC Dip' in the response. Two versions of the speaker, Satori Papyrus and Satori Textreme, the latter will set you back a $500 premium.
The 'Dip' was not intended, it really comes down to the main driver behaviour, that kink in the response around 3KHz before the on axis response rises, but rises much less as you go off axis. It completely disappears by 30°. Carefully balancing things, I have ended up with a massive single 1.8mH inductor on the 7.5" main driver. This is more than ten times the non-linear inductance of the driver at a critical 2KHz. This gives you current-drive type benefits with any amplifier. The main advantage of so-called '"current-drive" is not that it controls the current, rather that the driver imperfections don't mess up the current of the amplifier. I believe that what "current-drive" does is being misunderstood. The main benefit is isolation and that we have a mixer at work. It is hard to explain, but I am sticking to it.
Below: The On and Off Axis Family - from SoundEasy:
Green On Axis. Red (preferred) 15° Off Axis and Olive Green 30°.
Please note, this is not a DIY speaker, at least not in the sense that the Elsinores are. They were developed for commercial reasons.
The speakers are around 87dB and very easy to drive, flat phase and impedance (my signature) and solid state is just fine.
Below is the in-room response, two speakers summed at the listening position, so it includes room imperfections:
There is a hint of 'BBC Dip' in the response. Two versions of the speaker, Satori Papyrus and Satori Textreme, the latter will set you back a $500 premium.
The 'Dip' was not intended, it really comes down to the main driver behaviour, that kink in the response around 3KHz before the on axis response rises, but rises much less as you go off axis. It completely disappears by 30°. Carefully balancing things, I have ended up with a massive single 1.8mH inductor on the 7.5" main driver. This is more than ten times the non-linear inductance of the driver at a critical 2KHz. This gives you current-drive type benefits with any amplifier. The main advantage of so-called '"current-drive" is not that it controls the current, rather that the driver imperfections don't mess up the current of the amplifier. I believe that what "current-drive" does is being misunderstood. The main benefit is isolation and that we have a mixer at work. It is hard to explain, but I am sticking to it.
Below: The On and Off Axis Family - from SoundEasy:
Green On Axis. Red (preferred) 15° Off Axis and Olive Green 30°.
Please note, this is not a DIY speaker, at least not in the sense that the Elsinores are. They were developed for commercial reasons.
Joe,
I recall you musing over an Elsinore with the Satori MW16P-8:
Any luck with that?
I recall you musing over an Elsinore with the Satori MW16P-8:
Any luck with that?
Top rear is filled, behind the Main Brace. The area in front of the Main Brace and nearer the drivers, this are lined and it should be 25mm and even up to maybe 40 mm I have gotten away with, just don't interfere with the back of the drivers. Then the area around the rear of the port must not be obstructed. Really the box layout itself is what dictates the fill and where. You want at least 60% fill and a bit more than that won't hurt.
Okay great. I will line the top of the cabinet as well. It is an immediate reflection point for the top midbass driver so it makes sense to add something there versus just bare wood. I am using roughly 25mm-30mm polyester stuffing.
For the back, I filled the cavities with loose polyester then stapled a sheet of polyester in front of it to keep it in place. The poly in the cavities is fairly loose.
Your cabinet design is very nice. I can appreciate the thought behind it.
For the back, I filled the cavities with loose polyester then stapled a sheet of polyester in front of it to keep it in place. The poly in the cavities is fairly loose.
Your cabinet design is very nice. I can appreciate the thought behind it.