Hi Jonasz. No, the Elsinores are not underdamped and if you have heard some designs using SB17 (you only say SB) drivers being underdamped, I can't speak for those. They have a lot of drivers.
If there was an ideal driver Qts for a vented box, and only if there was such a thing, then I would say 0.33 and then tune to Fb and then find the right volume. That would likely approximate a Bessel alignment which I like. Allowing for series inductor DC resistance, a bit lower Qts would be a good thing. Yes, certainly 0.28 might work well in that case, even if a bit overdamped and I would not like it lower.
The Elsinores have a much higher proportion fill and don't rely on lining. That fill means Qb of the box then needs to be considered much lower than normal. Quite low indeed. It is also part of the reason we can use three different drivers but not quite the same crossover. It also means that it is never an undamped system.
Some more thoughts:
A deviation in total Q may be corrected for by changing the box tuning frequency. Tune lower will generally increase damping and vice versa. This is an option with vented box and not with sealed. It can be very useful to know.
I remember speaking to one speaker designer decades ago, who said that people think that drivers with higher Fb cannot deliver low bass and he said it could be done. So I replied "Yes, use a driver with higher Qts to go along with the higher Fb and then tune the system to well below Fb and that works well." I recall he made no comment, we both knew how.
Allen, I wonder what you might have to say and add your tuppence worth?
If there was an ideal driver Qts for a vented box, and only if there was such a thing, then I would say 0.33 and then tune to Fb and then find the right volume. That would likely approximate a Bessel alignment which I like. Allowing for series inductor DC resistance, a bit lower Qts would be a good thing. Yes, certainly 0.28 might work well in that case, even if a bit overdamped and I would not like it lower.
The Elsinores have a much higher proportion fill and don't rely on lining. That fill means Qb of the box then needs to be considered much lower than normal. Quite low indeed. It is also part of the reason we can use three different drivers but not quite the same crossover. It also means that it is never an undamped system.
Some more thoughts:
A deviation in total Q may be corrected for by changing the box tuning frequency. Tune lower will generally increase damping and vice versa. This is an option with vented box and not with sealed. It can be very useful to know.
I remember speaking to one speaker designer decades ago, who said that people think that drivers with higher Fb cannot deliver low bass and he said it could be done. So I replied "Yes, use a driver with higher Qts to go along with the higher Fb and then tune the system to well below Fb and that works well." I recall he made no comment, we both knew how.
Allen, I wonder what you might have to say and add your tuppence worth?
Well, if it can't be done then you could always plug the port and use a little EQ.. or even better, the multi-sub configuration.
That was one option I did not mention, but yes, especially in small rooms the port could be plugged, as the bass output of four drivers can be a bit too much. If that is what it takes, try it and see if it works.
Edit: I have two good subs and rated 16 Hertz and I rarely use them (never in the system when demoing them). The bass in the Elsinores is pretty OK by themselves already. But of course on certain material, turning on the subs, which are carefully integrated using the app and Clio RTA 1/6th Octave, you don't really hear them until you really hear them. And agreed two (or more) subs is advisable.
Edit: I have two good subs and rated 16 Hertz and I rarely use them (never in the system when demoing them). The bass in the Elsinores is pretty OK by themselves already. But of course on certain material, turning on the subs, which are carefully integrated using the app and Clio RTA 1/6th Octave, you don't really hear them until you really hear them. And agreed two (or more) subs is advisable.
I'm speaking from an experimenting point of view when I suggest plugging the port if it doesn't work as expected with different drivers. It simplifies the system so you can EQ more simply and perhaps predictably.
Multi subs need setting up again when you change anything and they can compensate whatever the mains are doing.
So the target bass will be the same in all cases, I'm not questioning the amount.
A good question. I think my choice would be to disconnect the lower frequency compensation circuit while doing this experimentation. Since bass region resonance is what the exercise is all about, if the compensation circuit was having any effect it would be managed automatically in the process.
Yes, I should have thought about that. Let me just say not ideal and maybe should be disengaged when go you go sealed.
Hi All,
I'm a 1st time speaker builder. I'm interested in building a pair of Elsinore's. The ULD is a stretch for my budget but not out of the question. These will be for music only. They will be driven to only moderate levels, let's say 85 db. Will the ULD sound much different than the MFC at moderate volume. I currently have Goldenear Triton 5's with an SVS 2000 pro sub. I have no acoustical treatment and my sub sits between my spekers in a cabinet with the doors open. I've moved the sub around but I don't notice all that much difference. The sub is playing at -30db so it's at a level where it become just audible when I turn it on an off. I live in an apt and don't want the neighbors to hear the "boom"
I think my system is fine except when it comes time to classical music or acoustic jazz. Acoustic bass seems to less resonant than in real life. I hear the notes but they sound kind of "dead". I wnat a more acoustic sounding bass. Wondering if the MFC or ULD would be an improvement in that regard over my current system? The triton 5's have I think 2 5in midrange/woofers with 4 passive radiators in each speaker.
I'm a 1st time speaker builder. I'm interested in building a pair of Elsinore's. The ULD is a stretch for my budget but not out of the question. These will be for music only. They will be driven to only moderate levels, let's say 85 db. Will the ULD sound much different than the MFC at moderate volume. I currently have Goldenear Triton 5's with an SVS 2000 pro sub. I have no acoustical treatment and my sub sits between my spekers in a cabinet with the doors open. I've moved the sub around but I don't notice all that much difference. The sub is playing at -30db so it's at a level where it become just audible when I turn it on an off. I live in an apt and don't want the neighbors to hear the "boom"
I think my system is fine except when it comes time to classical music or acoustic jazz. Acoustic bass seems to less resonant than in real life. I hear the notes but they sound kind of "dead". I wnat a more acoustic sounding bass. Wondering if the MFC or ULD would be an improvement in that regard over my current system? The triton 5's have I think 2 5in midrange/woofers with 4 passive radiators in each speaker.
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The MFC would be the one to go for, the ULD is very expensive and out of reach for most DIY'ers. But if cost is not a problem and you have deep pockets, then go for the ULD version, but having spoken to those who have built both, yes it is better but definitely not hugely better. The Elsinore signature sound is basically the same. As for me to advice you any further, I am way too close, if you know what I mean. Yes, your choice of music should suit very well and I too am particular when it comes to the sound of acoustic bass.
Have you heard NHOP (pronounce NiHOP):
Have you heard NHOP (pronounce NiHOP):
Hi Joe,
I wasn't expecting such a rapid reply especially from you! Thank you for the helpful adivice. I have a lot of admiration of your work, and I am excited to begin my project in about a month. I'm in Florida now. I will be building my project in Pennsylvania. I have garages, basements, guest houses and many rooms that need speakers!
I have one more simple question if you don't mind. Regarding the crossover, I'm not sure which resistor to use for R2. It says 7R but then note 1 has me confused. Do I use a 7 ohm resistor or do I have to measure the resistance of the adjacent component and then have the sum equal 7 ohms? You can tell that I'm a total novice and I'm sure my question makes that obvious. I just want to make sure I get the crossover right.
I hadn't heard of NHOP before but I have now! Talk about acoustic bass! Excellent recording. Thanks for sharing.
Dan
I wasn't expecting such a rapid reply especially from you! Thank you for the helpful adivice. I have a lot of admiration of your work, and I am excited to begin my project in about a month. I'm in Florida now. I will be building my project in Pennsylvania. I have garages, basements, guest houses and many rooms that need speakers!
I have one more simple question if you don't mind. Regarding the crossover, I'm not sure which resistor to use for R2. It says 7R but then note 1 has me confused. Do I use a 7 ohm resistor or do I have to measure the resistance of the adjacent component and then have the sum equal 7 ohms? You can tell that I'm a total novice and I'm sure my question makes that obvious. I just want to make sure I get the crossover right.
I hadn't heard of NHOP before but I have now! Talk about acoustic bass! Excellent recording. Thanks for sharing.
Dan
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Dan,
Chiming in here since I have built both the MFC and the ULD Elsinores, and have experience with the latter with respect to subwoofer integration (which I can talk about as well). First, the MFC version does not need subwoofers, my impression (and VItuixCAD modeling) of the LF response at cutoff is a slight rise and a more gentle rolloff with a lower F10 (bass extension) than the ULD version. It has a better tonal balance in general, but not as resolving as the ULD. The ULD really needs a little more support on the bottom for classical music, and I have a pair of SVS SB-3000 subs at 40Hz, 4th order, running the ULD full range. This brings the bottom octave in, as well as a sense of the venue.
This is a complicated build for the first time speaker builder, though Joe has excellent construction plans (though in metric, which makes converting to US customary units necessary, but not difficult). If you can get the cabinets panels CNC machined, that would be the easiest way to go, since there are a lot of drivers with rebates for the flanges and complicated front panel assembly. If you are an experienced woodworker, you can do this with planning, tools, router circle guide, maybe some custom templates for routing the braces, and lots of clamps (always needing one more than you have). You have to think about the assembly and how to keep everything in alignment and how many clamps you need during glue-up and clamping. I built my MFC version from MDF, using a high quality worksite saw with a crosscut sled and infeed/outfeed supports, 1/2” router, Jasper circle jig, homemade routing templates for the rectangular cutouts in the braces. For the latter you can use a hand jigsaw, but it will not be as nice looking, but the router is a necessity for the driver cutouts. And, if you can stand the dust (outside w/mask), use MDF, which is cheap enough to redo if you screw up. With proper planning and care, it is achievable on the first try, fortunately there are no odd angles, all the cuts are rips and crosscuts, and the old adage “measure twice, cut once” should be taken in earnest.
I see Joe said the MFC is the way to go, and I wholeheartedly agree. I do not regret building the ULD at all though, I appreciate the edge in resolution and detail, and is what I have in my system. I am happy with the sound, and just passed along my MFC build to another audiophile to enjoy.
David
Chiming in here since I have built both the MFC and the ULD Elsinores, and have experience with the latter with respect to subwoofer integration (which I can talk about as well). First, the MFC version does not need subwoofers, my impression (and VItuixCAD modeling) of the LF response at cutoff is a slight rise and a more gentle rolloff with a lower F10 (bass extension) than the ULD version. It has a better tonal balance in general, but not as resolving as the ULD. The ULD really needs a little more support on the bottom for classical music, and I have a pair of SVS SB-3000 subs at 40Hz, 4th order, running the ULD full range. This brings the bottom octave in, as well as a sense of the venue.
This is a complicated build for the first time speaker builder, though Joe has excellent construction plans (though in metric, which makes converting to US customary units necessary, but not difficult). If you can get the cabinets panels CNC machined, that would be the easiest way to go, since there are a lot of drivers with rebates for the flanges and complicated front panel assembly. If you are an experienced woodworker, you can do this with planning, tools, router circle guide, maybe some custom templates for routing the braces, and lots of clamps (always needing one more than you have). You have to think about the assembly and how to keep everything in alignment and how many clamps you need during glue-up and clamping. I built my MFC version from MDF, using a high quality worksite saw with a crosscut sled and infeed/outfeed supports, 1/2” router, Jasper circle jig, homemade routing templates for the rectangular cutouts in the braces. For the latter you can use a hand jigsaw, but it will not be as nice looking, but the router is a necessity for the driver cutouts. And, if you can stand the dust (outside w/mask), use MDF, which is cheap enough to redo if you screw up. With proper planning and care, it is achievable on the first try, fortunately there are no odd angles, all the cuts are rips and crosscuts, and the old adage “measure twice, cut once” should be taken in earnest.
I see Joe said the MFC is the way to go, and I wholeheartedly agree. I do not regret building the ULD at all though, I appreciate the edge in resolution and detail, and is what I have in my system. I am happy with the sound, and just passed along my MFC build to another audiophile to enjoy.
David
Hi Dave,
In Pa I have a pretty good wood shop. I have all the tools I need and also excellent sources for rough hardwood lumber. I have a good jointer, planer, tables saw and lots of clamps (however probably not enough LOL). For my first build I'll likely go the MFC route so if I screw it up too bad, I will have spent mostly time and not too much money. I'm pretty sure I can build the boxes. They may not be commercial quality appearance wise, but they will be solid, airtight and dimensionally correct. It's the fine finishing where I'm not the greatest. I'm a bit impatient.
Thanks for the advice.
Dan
In Pa I have a pretty good wood shop. I have all the tools I need and also excellent sources for rough hardwood lumber. I have a good jointer, planer, tables saw and lots of clamps (however probably not enough LOL). For my first build I'll likely go the MFC route so if I screw it up too bad, I will have spent mostly time and not too much money. I'm pretty sure I can build the boxes. They may not be commercial quality appearance wise, but they will be solid, airtight and dimensionally correct. It's the fine finishing where I'm not the greatest. I'm a bit impatient.
Thanks for the advice.
Dan
Joe,
If you like bass, this is a recent favorite of mine. It's not acoustic bass but I like it never the less.
If you like bass, this is a recent favorite of mine. It's not acoustic bass but I like it never the less.
Fine fishing is easily solved at the end with some 3M adhesive peel-and-stick wood veneer and a hand router.
Bingo!
I have exactly the same observations. And despite the small listening space (22m) the ULDs play supported by subwoofers. My MFCs also please the ears of friends 🙂
For those who have built the crossover. Is R2 a 7 ohm resistor, or do I have to do a calculation with the adjacent coil and have the sum equal 7 ohm? Sorry for my ignorance. I never built a crossover.
If you check the coil specs it will tell you the coil resistance and subtract that. I think Joe's instructions explain all that. If I remember right I think it says if it's over a certain resistance you calculate the coil resistance.
Dan,
Just in case you were thinking along those lines, using solid wood for box speaker enclosures is generally a bad idea due to wood movement (unless it is an open baffle design). In a box enclosure, it is difficult to avoid cross grain joints, and you do not want a panel to crack or glue joint fail. An MDF or Baltic birch ply core with veneer and solid wood edging at the corners would work well to produce that solid wood appearance but provide the needed stability. But you being a wood worker should know those tricks.
Finishing is a pain...fortunately, I have a friend (and fellow audiophile) who is a professional who advised me extensively. Yeah, it is tough to have to wait for the finishing to be complete, in my case, it took as long as building the cabinets. 8-10 coats of Sutherland-Welles Murdoch's Hard Oil varnish (polymerized tung oil), two coats per day, foam brush on, wipe off, wait to dry.
David
Just in case you were thinking along those lines, using solid wood for box speaker enclosures is generally a bad idea due to wood movement (unless it is an open baffle design). In a box enclosure, it is difficult to avoid cross grain joints, and you do not want a panel to crack or glue joint fail. An MDF or Baltic birch ply core with veneer and solid wood edging at the corners would work well to produce that solid wood appearance but provide the needed stability. But you being a wood worker should know those tricks.
Finishing is a pain...fortunately, I have a friend (and fellow audiophile) who is a professional who advised me extensively. Yeah, it is tough to have to wait for the finishing to be complete, in my case, it took as long as building the cabinets. 8-10 coats of Sutherland-Welles Murdoch's Hard Oil varnish (polymerized tung oil), two coats per day, foam brush on, wipe off, wait to dry.
David
Dan:
Where in Pennsylvania? I live in Wynnewood, just outside Philadelphia. If you're anywhere near me, you're welcome to audition my Elsinores (MFC v. 6, with several upgrades); in fact, you're welcome to bring your electronics if you want to make a real world assessment of the Elsinores' suitability.
And just to chime in here, they're spectacular loudspeakers.
Regards,
Scott