Elsinore's keep getting better and better... (power cond added)
So, the Elsinore's just were launched into the stratosphere....
Im gob smacked....
I know my house has electrical issues, add to that many receptacle's per breaker, 2 outlets for my entire audio system and so on I thought may be my system could benefit from a line conditioner. Did a bit of looking, built what is known as the Hagerman. I simply cannot believe how much better the sound imaging is. Sounds so much more holographic. In my rooms sweet spot, the sound is all around me, and NOT just from 2 definite points in front of me.
I feel like I have improved my system by a factor of 10...
These Elsinore's keep impressing the bejesus out of me.
(Ehem.. Just wish I could get an amp designed as well!)
So, the Elsinore's just were launched into the stratosphere....
Im gob smacked....
I know my house has electrical issues, add to that many receptacle's per breaker, 2 outlets for my entire audio system and so on I thought may be my system could benefit from a line conditioner. Did a bit of looking, built what is known as the Hagerman. I simply cannot believe how much better the sound imaging is. Sounds so much more holographic. In my rooms sweet spot, the sound is all around me, and NOT just from 2 definite points in front of me.
I feel like I have improved my system by a factor of 10...
These Elsinore's keep impressing the bejesus out of me.
(Ehem.. Just wish I could get an amp designed as well!)
We do have a matching amplifier design. Both speakers and amp are all about putting the current ahead of the voltage. Yeah, when you do that and get a good sound source too, it seems that the sound is almost multi-channel, it envelops you. Design an amplifier that is primarily a current delivery system (I am not talking about current drive) and get the speakers to treat that current properly... what I am saying is that what comes out of our speakers is a product of the current through the voice coils of the drivers and not the voltage. There is solid physics and measurements that prove this (and these measurements will be presented in time, likely later this year).
EDIT:
Below is a simplified schematic that I put on my Facebook page some time back. Please note that the 'Screens' showed as connected in ultra-linear is not used that way.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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This (reaction) routinely happens with amplifiers that are fairly simple w/ circuit-design (..especially with simple power supplies).
Yea, I have read this as well many times. Hard to quantify until/unless you are the one who can enjoy the improvement. Often times the touted benefits in real life are barley noticeable, if at all. For me, this was huge. I guess the degree of richness and warmth (what I have missed so dearly) that I hear was NOT expected to be so outstanding..
Aa007:
It's been 2.5 years since I completed the Elsinore project (see post #2407) and I'm pretty sure (but not entirely confident) that the total length of the ports, including the plastic flange, was 75mm. If your plan is to affix the ports by friction alone, I suggest you start with a length of 85mm or so and listen to them for a while. You could always pull them out and shave down the cardboard tube as needed.
Regards,
Scott
AudioFanMan:
Were you referring to a Jim Hagerman burn-in device, such as the FryKleaner or FryBaby? I'm convinced that Hagerman's burn-in devices work wonders; I owned a FryKleaner for years and sold it when I built a FryBaby2 as a replacement.
Amusingly, when I wrote about the FryBaby2 recently, the response on the Analogue Source forum was utterly underwhelming (FryBaby2 Burn-In Generator).
If you're referring to something else, can you provide some details?
Regards,
Scott
http://www.hagtech.com/pdf/conditioner.pdf
w/ something like this:
Access to this page has been denied.
w/ something like this:
Access to this page has been denied.
SRMcGee:
It probably would take 2.5 years to read through this whole thread too! 🙂 I appreciate you taking the time to provide the minute details, as it helps me (and others) to learn from successes (and mistakes!) of other builders. In the depth of the thread I also found detailed instructions (with a diagram even) for measuring Fb using a multimeter, so I might give a try (see post #1506).
It probably would take 2.5 years to read through this whole thread too! 🙂 I appreciate you taking the time to provide the minute details, as it helps me (and others) to learn from successes (and mistakes!) of other builders. In the depth of the thread I also found detailed instructions (with a diagram even) for measuring Fb using a multimeter, so I might give a try (see post #1506).
ScottG:
Thank you! I confess the excitement I had for a Hagerman line conditioner was tempered upon reading the white paper. I stand by my appreciation for his burn-in devices, though.
Aa007:
No problem at all. I've had great luck here at diyAudio following in the footsteps of people who actually know what they're doing. If I can make a contribution to the group knowledge, however small, I'm happy to do it.
Regards,
Scott
Thank you! I confess the excitement I had for a Hagerman line conditioner was tempered upon reading the white paper. I stand by my appreciation for his burn-in devices, though.
Aa007:
No problem at all. I've had great luck here at diyAudio following in the footsteps of people who actually know what they're doing. If I can make a contribution to the group knowledge, however small, I'm happy to do it.
Regards,
Scott
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Scott nailed it...
I used 2 of the following...
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073MCGBP5/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
And for receptacles used something like...
White Round 20A Single Electrical Receptacle
Lastly, the IEC connector I used is rated at 15Amps.
Simple hole saw, through the chassis... (If you want better holes back with some lumber clamped in place....
The NEXT one I build will use hookup wire that can be twisted reasonably easily, what I had on hand was 12 gauge solid and very stiff, so wound up not beating my self to death trying to twist it. After hearing how damn well it sounds, I wish I went all out...
Attachments
Just a quick one about speaker placement of the Elsinores.
In my room they fire across a 4 Metre room and they are well into the room, there is a three-seater couch the other side. There is an equipment rack between the speakers. The front of the speaker (not the rear) where the tweeter is in the centre and toed in, in 1.2 Metre from the back room. They look wider than what most people would do.
I had a discussion with a local Elsinore builder and he asked me and I said front panel centre of the tweeter 1.2 Metre into the room. He then went home and tried it himself and called me the following day and said it made a BIG difference.
Now not everybody can do this because of various reasons, BUT if you are able to give it a try, then do so.
But please, also have the Elsinores raised 3-4" off the floor as well.
If you are not able, don't worry too much. It means that you are still getting the best you can under your circumstances.
In my room they fire across a 4 Metre room and they are well into the room, there is a three-seater couch the other side. There is an equipment rack between the speakers. The front of the speaker (not the rear) where the tweeter is in the centre and toed in, in 1.2 Metre from the back room. They look wider than what most people would do.
I had a discussion with a local Elsinore builder and he asked me and I said front panel centre of the tweeter 1.2 Metre into the room. He then went home and tried it himself and called me the following day and said it made a BIG difference.
Now not everybody can do this because of various reasons, BUT if you are able to give it a try, then do so.
But please, also have the Elsinores raised 3-4" off the floor as well.
If you are not able, don't worry too much. It means that you are still getting the best you can under your circumstances.
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Don't dismiss it so easily. 😉
While common mode noise can be reduced significantly, a greater amount of differential noise often makes its way through the power supply (depending on the design - the less complex: often the greater amount of noise). BTW, lest you think you need a much better power supply design for a simple amplifier: note that a lot of the character and enviable traits of many simple designs can specifically be traced back to the interaction of the power supply with the amplifier and load (speaker).
There are also specialty transformers that do the same thing for a LOT more money (..given the current/voltage values needing much larger transformers).
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ScottG:
I hear you, but was hoping for something more elaborate than just adding an in-line filter.
Regards,
Scott
I hear you, but was hoping for something more elaborate than just adding an in-line filter.
Regards,
Scott
..combine that filter with a balanced transformer (..for even greater decreased common mode noise).
Other than that you've really only got sine-wave correction (or simple voltage regulation - but strictly speaking that's not a noise issue), and that can get pricey (..and usually includes additional AC line filtration).
There really isn't much more to it than that (..except for the ability to dump large amounts of current super quick from huge cap. arrays - though the rest of the conditioner needs to be able to handle that level of current/voltage.)
Other than that you've really only got sine-wave correction (or simple voltage regulation - but strictly speaking that's not a noise issue), and that can get pricey (..and usually includes additional AC line filtration).
There really isn't much more to it than that (..except for the ability to dump large amounts of current super quick from huge cap. arrays - though the rest of the conditioner needs to be able to handle that level of current/voltage.)
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I was curious to try the EMI filter AudioFanMan posted a link to, and low and behold it arrived today from the online superstore. I had a broken UPS lying around waiting to be recycled, so I gutted and re-used it as a temporary enclosure with the built-in AC sockets. A few 12 AWG wires and an hour later I plugged my trusty DYI KT88 amp into the new "EMI suppressor", cranked the volume all the way up with the preamp off... and I believe the small amount of AC noise that in the past got into the signal path and was amplified at very high volumes so you could really hear it, was gone! I need more time for proper testing, but for now I declare it $16 well spent! 🙂
Attachments
Joe,
What would your comments / recommendations be on a large chamfer? I understand you kept the front baffle flat for the ease of DIY building (no fancy cuts or bevels).
Here's a link to a pic of what I have in mind - the Elsinore baffle assembly including front panel and sub-front-panel is 43 mm.
New active Satori Textreme
New active Satori Textreme
What would your comments / recommendations be on a large chamfer? I understand you kept the front baffle flat for the ease of DIY building (no fancy cuts or bevels).
Here's a link to a pic of what I have in mind - the Elsinore baffle assembly including front panel and sub-front-panel is 43 mm.
New active Satori Textreme
New active Satori Textreme
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