’SibIlance’ is a result of strong peaks embedded in the recording from vocals typically in the range of 5k-7k…….if you’re bothered by something, beryllium will have nothing to do with it…….even a $10 tweeter shouldn’t have break up that low. Not sure what you’re objecting over……..bringing NS 1000 into the equation only further confuses whatever point you wish to make.
Waveguides solve some problems……reducing the operational distance from driver center to center isn’t one of them. Some are willing to accept the associated lobing in return for even directivity between drivers.
Profiguy wrote about that in his thread:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/vifa-d76mx-ss-d7608-3-mid-dome-in-pe-waveguide.377025/
Thank you, but no thank you.
I have done all my own test over the years, my own problem peaks are not between not 5k-7k, they are from 500hz to 5.5khz
Ns 1000 has beryllium tweeter + beryllium middome, with troels crossover it has even smoother fr than normally.
I made it as a point, that beryllium does not have a good track record with me, as i have listened many speakers with beryllium tweeter and they have all hurt my ears even with flat fr..
Ns 1000 is only beryllium speaker that worked for me, and only in special environment that is acoustically much more better than what i have, not the listening room with hard surface problems that i have right now..
Beryllium does not work for everyone, i am one of those.
Waveguides will work better, but i don't like how they make soundstage more focused and so, smaller, between the speakers
(smaller tweeter waveguides).
I was thinking of using compression drivers and larger tractrix or OS horn that does not have this problem, but cannot in my listening room this time so that will be future project..
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I definitely hope i can use it, since i need all the sensitivity i can get and i could have 97db speaker with m74 (my bass is active).
Problem is it is expensive, and my ears are extremely sensitive to sibilance.
So in most cases if drivers are not squeky clean without any problems, i have no way of knowing do they work for me or not without testing and that takes money..
I already bought for my speaker project 6 highend tweeters to test, keeping one and selling the rest used makes you lose money, but sadly it seems to be only way i know for sure what works for me and what does not.
Not trying to rain your parade or anything, just trying to see if this time i could know in advance without buying..
There is a difference between the way the Yamaha beryllium domes were made and the way nowadays beryllium domes are made.
Yamaha domes were a "vacuum deposition on a former process" whereas nowadays domes are formed out of a foil, so a totally different process with likely different properties.
I don’t have a parade to rain on so there is no issue there. Just trying to help you understand the data that exists and may help to lead to a good choice.
I would not presume to tell you what you hear but it is very difficult to determine the exact cause of why you don’t like something. It is all to easy to put 2 and 2 together and come up with 17, if that number came as the result of some objective evidence it can be really hard to consider other possibilities. I have done it myself enough times to know …
@profiguy, if you haven't done so already, could you please describe how to get the most out of the D7608? I've been following this thread and am not sure I've seen the full story on that. My current plan is to use the Kartesian Mid120 (which I've already purchased) as the mid for my next build, but I'm thinking I might pick up a pair of D7608s as well and see which works best.
I know its a bit late, but did you consider the Wom120_vMS? To my eyes it looks to have a wider bandwidth. Interesting that the smoothing is specified - and different. They both seem quite good value.
I gave the Wom120 a lot of consideration and a lot of other options as well. I ended up getting the Mid120s based on this thread:
Schnuckelchen
Obviously, I'm still not certain. The Mid120 seems an excellent choice for my requirements except that the breakup behavior is rather severe. I'm not sure that the Wom120 would be better in that regard. The D7608 seems like it is and the M74A definitely is, but that's pretty much been ruled out. So, I'm thinking of getting the D7608 and then seeing which works better for me and selling the others (or using them in another design).
Schnuckelchen
Obviously, I'm still not certain. The Mid120 seems an excellent choice for my requirements except that the breakup behavior is rather severe. I'm not sure that the Wom120 would be better in that regard. The D7608 seems like it is and the M74A definitely is, but that's pretty much been ruled out. So, I'm thinking of getting the D7608 and then seeing which works better for me and selling the others (or using them in another design).
I have also decided to get D7608, and test it against em1308.
Will write something about it once i have it tested..
Will write something about it once i have it tested..
I used and tested quite some dome midranges up to now. (Dayton 2" alu and soft dome, Morel MDM55 and EM1308, MD60N, original Tang Band 3" and Bliesma M74A,B,S)
I don't see the reason to get an ancient 3" midrange design which I can only use from 800Hz upwards? The Daytons go lower and have great sensitivity. Just use MDM55 with it's small faceplate.
"REAL" 3" midranges like Bliesma and Volt/ATC are in a different leaque - but of course significant more expensive. While the smaller domes also get you great sounding midrange the real "magic" happens when you reach 95dBSpl sensitivity from 500-3000Hz with 2g membrane weight ...
I don't see the reason to get an ancient 3" midrange design which I can only use from 800Hz upwards? The Daytons go lower and have great sensitivity. Just use MDM55 with it's small faceplate.
"REAL" 3" midranges like Bliesma and Volt/ATC are in a different leaque - but of course significant more expensive. While the smaller domes also get you great sounding midrange the real "magic" happens when you reach 95dBSpl sensitivity from 500-3000Hz with 2g membrane weight ...
How about a "little" Horn Loading for the SBA/MD60N-8 ???
On the top of the CAB , protruding and accounting for the right amount of time delay to the tweeter which is close to the upper edge of the CAB .
PExpress has a Dayton 8 inch WGuide but needs some modifidation to fit correctly :
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-H08RW-8-Round-Waveguide-1-3-8-18-TPI-270-308?quantity=1
There was once a Dayton 10 & 12 inch conical WG too but gone now due to loss of interest from the DIY crowd ...
https://www.wittmann-hifi.de/thumbn.../Avantgarde-Acoustic_MEZZO-2200_1920x1920.jpg
On the top of the CAB , protruding and accounting for the right amount of time delay to the tweeter which is close to the upper edge of the CAB .
PExpress has a Dayton 8 inch WGuide but needs some modifidation to fit correctly :
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton-Audio-H08RW-8-Round-Waveguide-1-3-8-18-TPI-270-308?quantity=1
There was once a Dayton 10 & 12 inch conical WG too but gone now due to loss of interest from the DIY crowd ...
https://www.wittmann-hifi.de/thumbn.../Avantgarde-Acoustic_MEZZO-2200_1920x1920.jpg
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Could you please tell me what you think about Bliesma M74A,B,S versions ? Somebody claimed B and S is for studio monitor and A for home use, what do you think ?
Hi IamJF!
How did you deal with the 6khz ridge on waterfall?
Did you use active and just used something extremely deep cross like 8th order..
Also, can you write a littlebit, what is different with higher sensitivity domes compared to smaller domes?
Sorry for the late replys. Its a challenge to keep up with this thread and I didn't expect it to have this much of a following. Im glad you guys are getting some good info from all this.
Concerning the M74A and D7608 the most bang for your buck is the D7608 despite its short comings. The M74A is however the best performer considering how low you can cross it and the small flange, plus it's the most sensitive of the two. The overall detail retrieval is likely the best out of all the 3" domes and I now prefer it over the M74B, Volt VM752 and even the big ATC.
If you can't afford the M74A, the best affordable alternative is the D7608. The larger flange gets alot of criticism but it can be cut away to get an HF dome closer to it. I dont recommend the non-flanged version because the dome benefits from a slight edge radius which makes it less sensitive to diffraction related FR ripple, plus it time aligns better with most HF domes. The upper end rolloff does depend on the baffle dimensions due to the baffle edge diffraction ripple balancing out with the upper end response differently with various baffle designs.
BTW, the dome has a protective grille behind it making the dome hard to damage by pushing it in. I saw someone worried about this but couldn't remember who asked about it.
The pictures I posted show the felt removed from the D7608 and the layout of the vent holes in the motor. The felt is critical to the dampening of the dome and lowers Qts somewhat making the dome more compatible with a wide range of enclosure sizes and types.
If you want the best low end performance and smoothes rolloff, the dome needs a 1 - 2 ltr chamber stuffed with fiberglass, rockwool or sheeps wool (best option). Which ever you choose, you must verify the Qtc is lower than 0.9 to not run into overexcursion induced excessive HD (mostly 3rd order).
The practical xmax is roughly 1mm peak. This means the lower cutoff is dictated by xmax alone, so pick your filter wisely and adjust SPL expectations accordingly. The better you mechanically dampen the low end rolloff with the chamber design, the lower the HD and higher the practical SPL limit.
The best sounding Qtc I've tried was 0.7 with a cutoff of 800 hz @ LR2. Can be pushed lower with a steeper filter slope, but the electrical dampening can affect the mechanical dampening, so there's limits with this.
If you want a 600 hz mid HP, you must expect lower max SPL or double up on D7608s running a staggered LP on them to avoid combing. In this arrangement the mids must be mounted right above each other (MMT not MTM). This will also give you about 95 dB sensitivity above the HP point depending on baffle design.
The HF dome choice is pretty open depending on how high you want to run the D7608. I'd go no higher than 3.5k 2nd order, which will ends up steeper due to the added acoustic rolloff. The off axis behavior at upper roloff isn't as bad as the factory FR curve suggests, but its obviously not going to play as high as a 2 inch dome off axis.
I'd go with a larger HF dome to blend it smoothly. Smaller 19mm domes will be too wide radiation pattern wise without a WG and there will be an ubrupt swing in directivity at xover, right where your ear is most sensitive. A 30 - 35mm dome would work best in this regard but that can be expensive (more than the mid itself). I like to combine the D7608 with the SeasT35C002, Audax TW034, Morel CAT378, Wavecor TW030, Bliesma T34A/B and Audax TW025A28. Some smaller planars and ribbons work well too if the vertical directivity is close to the mid dome @ xover.
I'm trying to come up with some clear directions on the chamber design with the D7608 so people understand the whole dampening strategy. If you don't get the dampening right, this mid won't sound nearly as good as it can. In all sincerely, the main issue with almost every larger mid dome is the elevated Qts most of them have. They do this for more output at cutoff, but it really hurts performance on many levels. I believe this is one of the reasons why many of these large domes sound worse than good cone mids when use in accordance to manufacturer specs suggest.
Concerning the M74A and D7608 the most bang for your buck is the D7608 despite its short comings. The M74A is however the best performer considering how low you can cross it and the small flange, plus it's the most sensitive of the two. The overall detail retrieval is likely the best out of all the 3" domes and I now prefer it over the M74B, Volt VM752 and even the big ATC.
If you can't afford the M74A, the best affordable alternative is the D7608. The larger flange gets alot of criticism but it can be cut away to get an HF dome closer to it. I dont recommend the non-flanged version because the dome benefits from a slight edge radius which makes it less sensitive to diffraction related FR ripple, plus it time aligns better with most HF domes. The upper end rolloff does depend on the baffle dimensions due to the baffle edge diffraction ripple balancing out with the upper end response differently with various baffle designs.
BTW, the dome has a protective grille behind it making the dome hard to damage by pushing it in. I saw someone worried about this but couldn't remember who asked about it.
The pictures I posted show the felt removed from the D7608 and the layout of the vent holes in the motor. The felt is critical to the dampening of the dome and lowers Qts somewhat making the dome more compatible with a wide range of enclosure sizes and types.
If you want the best low end performance and smoothes rolloff, the dome needs a 1 - 2 ltr chamber stuffed with fiberglass, rockwool or sheeps wool (best option). Which ever you choose, you must verify the Qtc is lower than 0.9 to not run into overexcursion induced excessive HD (mostly 3rd order).
The practical xmax is roughly 1mm peak. This means the lower cutoff is dictated by xmax alone, so pick your filter wisely and adjust SPL expectations accordingly. The better you mechanically dampen the low end rolloff with the chamber design, the lower the HD and higher the practical SPL limit.
The best sounding Qtc I've tried was 0.7 with a cutoff of 800 hz @ LR2. Can be pushed lower with a steeper filter slope, but the electrical dampening can affect the mechanical dampening, so there's limits with this.
If you want a 600 hz mid HP, you must expect lower max SPL or double up on D7608s running a staggered LP on them to avoid combing. In this arrangement the mids must be mounted right above each other (MMT not MTM). This will also give you about 95 dB sensitivity above the HP point depending on baffle design.
The HF dome choice is pretty open depending on how high you want to run the D7608. I'd go no higher than 3.5k 2nd order, which will ends up steeper due to the added acoustic rolloff. The off axis behavior at upper roloff isn't as bad as the factory FR curve suggests, but its obviously not going to play as high as a 2 inch dome off axis.
I'd go with a larger HF dome to blend it smoothly. Smaller 19mm domes will be too wide radiation pattern wise without a WG and there will be an ubrupt swing in directivity at xover, right where your ear is most sensitive. A 30 - 35mm dome would work best in this regard but that can be expensive (more than the mid itself). I like to combine the D7608 with the SeasT35C002, Audax TW034, Morel CAT378, Wavecor TW030, Bliesma T34A/B and Audax TW025A28. Some smaller planars and ribbons work well too if the vertical directivity is close to the mid dome @ xover.
I'm trying to come up with some clear directions on the chamber design with the D7608 so people understand the whole dampening strategy. If you don't get the dampening right, this mid won't sound nearly as good as it can. In all sincerely, the main issue with almost every larger mid dome is the elevated Qts most of them have. They do this for more output at cutoff, but it really hurts performance on many levels. I believe this is one of the reasons why many of these large domes sound worse than good cone mids when use in accordance to manufacturer specs suggest.
@profiguy: being in the process of building a threeway speaker based on a Scanspeak 22W/8534, following this fine thread I still hesitate to pull the trigger on a pair of D7608's because I already have 10F/8424 cone mids and Hiquphon OW2 tweeters.
10F is wide band and should be great 600 - 3500Hz with simple LR2; lower sensitivity but enough to combine with the woofer and tweeter.
What would really be to gain by using D7608 instead?? Sd is about he same. 10F has higher Xmax and also very low moving mass; Qt "normal".
Hiquphon tweeters have smallish waveguides so they might do well directivity wise.
Convince me to switch from 10F to D7608....
10F is wide band and should be great 600 - 3500Hz with simple LR2; lower sensitivity but enough to combine with the woofer and tweeter.
What would really be to gain by using D7608 instead?? Sd is about he same. 10F has higher Xmax and also very low moving mass; Qt "normal".
Hiquphon tweeters have smallish waveguides so they might do well directivity wise.
Convince me to switch from 10F to D7608....
Don't switch for the D7608 ...
The 10F does fine. Only when you need more SPL or search for the most detailed mid sound I would think about an upgrade but I would chose a mid dome which can be crossd over lower or/and has less membrane area depending what frequency you cross your tweeter.