Man! What was the rush?! All three pairs of parents must have had kids at something like 20, to make you a great grandad at such a tender age.
How about a virtual line array? Something like a long Karlson Klam could maybe elongate the radiating surface, using only one or two drivers?
A little older, though all before 25 and didn't feel we were in a 'rush', just having been around plenty of teen parents up to those in their 40-50s, we decided the best overall was as soon as we could afford them [so did], and maybe not suffer the ~total disconnect between the older parents and their kids and the heartache, heartbreak we witnessed all too often [we didn't]; not to mention so we hopefully could retire early because we knew quite a few folks that didn't make it to 62, much less 65, and of those that did, too many were either gone by their early 70s and/or was in such poor health that they had little, if any, real quality of life.
Nowadays, what with the explosion of medical breakthroughs over the decades combined with vastly better working conditions, living longer is a given for most folks in some areas of the world and thankfully I live in one of the best, but even if now was my time I'd probably still choose the same path, all else equal.
GM
Nowadays, what with the explosion of medical breakthroughs over the decades combined with vastly better working conditions, living longer is a given for most folks in some areas of the world and thankfully I live in one of the best, but even if now was my time I'd probably still choose the same path, all else equal.
GM
It's playing. I've only done some basic setup, measurements and fine-tuning will happen after some playing in (driver was shelved for a while).
HOLY COW! ;-)
There's the obvious violence in movie soundtracks. It's less obvious in most music, which confused my wife. She was expecting more bass. Then she noticed how acoustic/spanish guitar sounds better as well, a church bell, a flute. It increases the sense of dynamics, rounds out the total presentation.
Very succesful so far. I had sub 20Hz before in sealed boxes (Q 0.5), but this is waaaaay different.
HOLY COW! ;-)
There's the obvious violence in movie soundtracks. It's less obvious in most music, which confused my wife. She was expecting more bass. Then she noticed how acoustic/spanish guitar sounds better as well, a church bell, a flute. It increases the sense of dynamics, rounds out the total presentation.
Very succesful so far. I had sub 20Hz before in sealed boxes (Q 0.5), but this is waaaaay different.
Yeah, back when I was 'chasing' replicating live music it became obvious that the lower I tuned the cabs, the more tonally 'complete' the recording became as opposed to the Altec/JBL thumping mid-bass 'West Coast Sound' [~42-45 Hz tuning]. Great back when recordings rolled off below ~80-100 Hz, but not so much as it dropped.
Ditto with increasing HF too, up to ~40 kHz according to some, though with many [most?] recordings cut at 20 kHz, of limited use.
IME, ~flat in-room from ~16-20 kHz is the practical limit for traditional music and as low as you can afford for movie soundtracks since quite a few get down deep into the single digits and why ideally one needs a very large TL/sealed system: The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
GM
Ditto with increasing HF too, up to ~40 kHz according to some, though with many [most?] recordings cut at 20 kHz, of limited use.
IME, ~flat in-room from ~16-20 kHz is the practical limit for traditional music and as low as you can afford for movie soundtracks since quite a few get down deep into the single digits and why ideally one needs a very large TL/sealed system: The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
GM
GM,
Maybe you can help. I am looking for a bass box that will deliver slam/kick/jump to the music. The bass boxes would be used in conjunction with some 12" full range drivers and helper tweeter on open baffle. I have seen you recommend both bass bib's and large prosound drivers in a sealed cabinet. Not sure which is the better way to go. One concern with the bass bib's is that the 3rd harmonic dip will fall in the slam/kick/jump region. And one concern with a sealed cabinet is target Q and Fb. I will be driving the bass boxes with plate amps.
Any input would be appreciated
Thanks
Maybe you can help. I am looking for a bass box that will deliver slam/kick/jump to the music. The bass boxes would be used in conjunction with some 12" full range drivers and helper tweeter on open baffle. I have seen you recommend both bass bib's and large prosound drivers in a sealed cabinet. Not sure which is the better way to go. One concern with the bass bib's is that the 3rd harmonic dip will fall in the slam/kick/jump region. And one concern with a sealed cabinet is target Q and Fb. I will be driving the bass boxes with plate amps.
Any input would be appreciated
Thanks
Well, OBs done right are 1st order [critically damped] alignments, so ideally we want the same in the other octaves, limiting us to large OB, 0.5 Qtc sealed, TL or appropriate horn alignment once the room's curve is factored in.
In a tapped BIB [AKA basic tapped horn], the tap fills in the dip. Use a driver with high inductance, then make it a dual wired in series to increase the 'fill' and you'll have enough 'slam'/'punch' potential to damage your home same as I did with a stereo pair of dual 15" driver corner loaded MLhorns. 18 yrs later, still haven't finished the repairs. 🙁
Note at minimum it will require adjustable digital 4th or higher XO, time delay for its tap offset and phase adjustment between the mains, sub.
If your home is much better built than mine [stick built, 'floating floor', lapboard siding] and especially if in at least a partial below grade concrete basement, then combined with the massive room gain, true 140+ dB rock concert levels can be realized with a couple of 18" prosound 'subs' plus service feed to power the megawatt amp required.
In short, without specific performance, room, budget, etc., requirements/limitations, kind of hard to make any suggestions.
GM
In a tapped BIB [AKA basic tapped horn], the tap fills in the dip. Use a driver with high inductance, then make it a dual wired in series to increase the 'fill' and you'll have enough 'slam'/'punch' potential to damage your home same as I did with a stereo pair of dual 15" driver corner loaded MLhorns. 18 yrs later, still haven't finished the repairs. 🙁
Note at minimum it will require adjustable digital 4th or higher XO, time delay for its tap offset and phase adjustment between the mains, sub
If your home is much better built than mine [stick built, 'floating floor', lapboard siding] and especially if in at least a partial below grade concrete basement, then combined with the massive room gain, true 140+ dB rock concert levels can be realized with a couple of 18" prosound 'subs' plus service feed to power the megawatt amp
In short, without specific performance, room, budget, etc., requirements/limitations, kind of hard to make any suggestions.
GM
GM,
Sorry for the open ended question, but thanks for the response.
Parameters
I don't want to destroy my house, my bank account, or my marriage.
More specifically
I have a Celestion K12H-200TC (12" full range) and eminence APT-50 super tweeter on an open baffle driven by a SET. And I am looking at options for ~150hz on down. The bass units would be driven by plate amps and just need to keep up with the ob's. Currently using bass reflex subs that are not worth mentioning.
This is a secondary system in my garage (20' x 18'4" x 9'4"). And yes the room is kind of boomy.
I have some bib's for my primary system so I am familiar with the bass sound. Not sure if bass bib's could be a good match for ob's or should I consider sealed. Maybe a 12" woofer in a bib? Or a 15" or pair in a sealed box? But I am open to other cost effective options. I notice quite a few single sheet tapped horns in the subwoofer forum.
System is to play rock and roll and blues. I don't care about sound stage or sweet spot or even a ruler flat frequency range. I just want it to be musical. I mentioned slam/kick/jump in the previous thread. Those are preferred if it can be achieved on a budget.
Thanks again GM
Sorry for the open ended question, but thanks for the response.
Parameters
I don't want to destroy my house, my bank account, or my marriage.
More specifically
I have a Celestion K12H-200TC (12" full range) and eminence APT-50 super tweeter on an open baffle driven by a SET. And I am looking at options for ~150hz on down. The bass units would be driven by plate amps and just need to keep up with the ob's. Currently using bass reflex subs that are not worth mentioning.
This is a secondary system in my garage (20' x 18'4" x 9'4"). And yes the room is kind of boomy.
I have some bib's for my primary system so I am familiar with the bass sound. Not sure if bass bib's could be a good match for ob's or should I consider sealed. Maybe a 12" woofer in a bib? Or a 15" or pair in a sealed box? But I am open to other cost effective options. I notice quite a few single sheet tapped horns in the subwoofer forum.
System is to play rock and roll and blues. I don't care about sound stage or sweet spot or even a ruler flat frequency range. I just want it to be musical. I mentioned slam/kick/jump in the previous thread. Those are preferred if it can be achieved on a budget.
Thanks again GM
You're welcome!
I assumed as much. 😉
Boomy rooms need a rising response system, i.e. over-damped [low Qts], and for slam, etc., some 'flavor' of sealed or BP4 [or higher] alignment is the norm and use a HE prosound driver [or multiples] to get enough efficiency to match the mains.
This would include BIBs loaded with this type driver with a low Fs and tuned to Fs. Ditto the various [ML]TL alignments. I'm no fan of wide range Karlsons, but a K15 loaded with a 15" mid bass horn driver can 'kick like a mule', so a good choice if the woodworking and lack of extreme lows required for DSOTM, etc., is acceptable.
Nothing wrong with stacks of 0.5 [or lower] Qtc sealed cabs or just big OBs with at least dual 12" or one 15" driver [or larger] will get it done, but most of these alignments need an expensive driver, so this leaves us cheap drivers in OB or well stuffed [multiple] driver sealed, TL or BP4 [or higher] alignment with the trade off being larger, potentially more expensive cabs, though still at lower cost since the preferred drivers I looked up are ~$450-up.
Last, but not least is to build [multiple] cheap sealed and use digital EQ to shape its in-room response. FWIW, I was looking at these the other day for a single. Super high Qts, relatively low <30 Hz Fs, so a prime candidate for leaky sealed + EQ: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pyle-Pyl...62769&wl11=online&wl12=41279373&wl13=&veh=sem
That or go buy some used multiple driver Marshall, Fender or similar bass guitar rigs like was popular in my youth. 😉
GM
I assumed as much. 😉
Boomy rooms need a rising response system, i.e. over-damped [low Qts], and for slam, etc., some 'flavor' of sealed or BP4 [or higher] alignment is the norm and use a HE prosound driver [or multiples] to get enough efficiency to match the mains.
This would include BIBs loaded with this type driver with a low Fs and tuned to Fs. Ditto the various [ML]TL alignments. I'm no fan of wide range Karlsons, but a K15 loaded with a 15" mid bass horn driver can 'kick like a mule', so a good choice if the woodworking and lack of extreme lows required for DSOTM, etc., is acceptable.
Nothing wrong with stacks of 0.5 [or lower] Qtc sealed cabs or just big OBs with at least dual 12" or one 15" driver [or larger] will get it done, but most of these alignments need an expensive driver
Last, but not least is to build [multiple] cheap sealed and use digital EQ to shape its in-room response. FWIW, I was looking at these the other day for a single. Super high Qts, relatively low <30 Hz Fs, so a prime candidate for leaky sealed + EQ: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Pyle-Pyl...62769&wl11=online&wl12=41279373&wl13=&veh=sem
That or go buy some used multiple driver Marshall, Fender or similar bass guitar rigs like was popular in my youth. 😉
GM
Have you considered building BIBs for the Celestion K12H-200TC drivers?
It's a large driver, and with a large BIB should be capable of at least listening levels that don't wreck your house. I did some sine sweep tests yesterday and my 12" woofer is barely moving at loud 25 Hz.
It would save you the expense of buying more drive units. You could build a cheap trial BIB from a cheap material (I used particle board for my latest build, works OK though not the ultimate baltic birch ply killer) to see how it performs in your room.
I know the open baffle aim is releasing a driver from box reflections etc., but crossing over to a woofer/subwoofer section has its own drawbacks. A widerange 12" driver in a BIB might be a better compromise than a midrange 12" crossing over to a woofer in a different type of enclosure, a different amp on the bass channels etc.
2017 take on BIB for Fostex Fe 168S
Hi I have a pair of the old fostex fe 168s (those with the wizzers) and I would like to built a pair of BIB's .Given the time passed is there something new on design for these drivers?
I have run the numbers to the BIB calculator V2 do I need to adjust something?
Also I would like to know where an what to put as absorbing material for optimum results limiting the experiments time .
And finaly If I go with an extra external round baffle how big must be in diameter ?
I plan to use mdf I read somewhere for combination of different type of materials what do you propose?
Thank you in advance
Nick
Sorry for asking but so far I have read the first 200 pages and I hope to read the entire 500...
Hi I have a pair of the old fostex fe 168s (those with the wizzers) and I would like to built a pair of BIB's .Given the time passed is there something new on design for these drivers?
I have run the numbers to the BIB calculator V2 do I need to adjust something?
Also I would like to know where an what to put as absorbing material for optimum results limiting the experiments time .
And finaly If I go with an extra external round baffle how big must be in diameter ?
I plan to use mdf I read somewhere for combination of different type of materials what do you propose?
Thank you in advance
Nick
Sorry for asking but so far I have read the first 200 pages and I hope to read the entire 500...
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Greets!
Yeah, we really need a synopsis 'BIB for dummies' post, though it's so 'politically correct' these days I'll probably have to re-name it 'BIB made simple/easy' or some-such lest I offend anyone. Regardless, I'm [very slowly] working on a collection of posting links to refer to since these are still popular enough to justify it.
Personally, I would adjust the 'Fs' value downward to get the terminus closer to the ceiling using this as a guide, just don't tune below [Fs*Qts'/2]: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...e-fostex-craft-handbooks-110.html#post4903502
Qts' = mh-audio.nl - Home
GM
Yeah, we really need a synopsis 'BIB for dummies' post, though it's so 'politically correct' these days I'll probably have to re-name it 'BIB made simple/easy' or some-such lest I offend anyone. Regardless, I'm [very slowly] working on a collection of posting links to refer to since these are still popular enough to justify it.
Personally, I would adjust the 'Fs' value downward to get the terminus closer to the ceiling using this as a guide, just don't tune below [Fs*Qts'/2]: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...e-fostex-craft-handbooks-110.html#post4903502
Qts' = mh-audio.nl - Home
GM
FWIW, I gave this some thought before responding, deciding that to get the desired mid bass performance with a BIB would 'color' the 'FR' driver's response too much ['tail wagging the dog'], making a BVR the only viable BLH option.
Anyway, all things considered, I've recommended/used his choice except with higher XO points to allow one amp/passive XO [350-500 Hz] because even the vintage 12" 'FR' drivers don't have enough clean dynamic headroom to suit me unless BVR/BLH loaded.
GM
GM,
So tuning a bass bib to the driver Fs....
If I understand correctly, the bib calculator is tuned one octave below Fs. So use Fsx2. And I can reduce the Qts be the same ratio? So Qts/2 in the calculator for figuring Vb?
That 21" Pyle is a nice price. I am going to the Lone Star AudioFest (LSAF) in Dallas in a couple of weeks. Hopefully my wife will be able to go along. Then I can pick her brain and get a feel for what she prefers and give me a chance to hear many different alignments. Last year John Bush of Manzanita Audio had his Widowmaker II. An 18" and 21" Drivers in a open baffle. They were 108db efficient. Best sound at the show for me.
Thanks for helping this dummy
So tuning a bass bib to the driver Fs....
If I understand correctly, the bib calculator is tuned one octave below Fs. So use Fsx2. And I can reduce the Qts be the same ratio? So Qts/2 in the calculator for figuring Vb?
That 21" Pyle is a nice price. I am going to the Lone Star AudioFest (LSAF) in Dallas in a couple of weeks. Hopefully my wife will be able to go along. Then I can pick her brain and get a feel for what she prefers and give me a chance to hear many different alignments. Last year John Bush of Manzanita Audio had his Widowmaker II. An 18" and 21" Drivers in a open baffle. They were 108db efficient. Best sound at the show for me.
Thanks for helping this dummy
You're welcome!
Correct.
Qts/Qts' or Vas doesn't change unless you only want to make net Vb larger, smaller and even then better to scale the sum, i.e. calculated net Vb = 100 L, then when doubling Fs: 100*0.707 = 70.7 L to maintain the same theoretical peaking at Fp before damping. When it comes to simple 'sub' woofer pipe horns though, the extra 'cushion' allows a bit more gain, tuning flexibility.
Yeah, OBs really are the theoretical ideal loading at one end and its reactance annulled BLH derivative at the other end, so considering the sheer mammoth size of the latter, the former is the 'no brainer' choice for all but a select few and now that large high power woofers and relatively inexpensive megaWatt amps are finally available to the masses, I've lost interest in using a multiple 12" driver array IB to do the HT's <20 Hz BW.
GM
Yep and if they were calculated by my pre-T/S design routine they would be somewhat larger since acoustic efficiency held sway over size back when there was little power handling capability available, so the few low tuned ones I/we did were built into the corners.
The biggest I/we did was a concrete basement false wall ~150 ft^3?/channel 'stereo' pair, but weren't pleased with the results compared to sealing them up [in retrospect, not enough damping], so left them IB.
GM
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I played a bit with BIB V2 importing lower frequency ...At 45hz its quite tall construction (almost 2 meters(my room celling is at 2,7 meters)) ,I am not sure about WAF and if the driver can cope with this setup. For best WAF and some compromise for the performance maybe a MLTL design is better for my application?
Re. Fostex 168z (with whizzer).
https://speakerprojects.wordpress.com/2015/04/27/fostex-168z-projects/
https://speakerprojects.wordpress.com/2015/04/27/fostex-168z-projects/