distance to ceiling?
Greg,
I know this has been asked many time in this thread, and you have patiently answered it. I have a note, but not a post #. You say, "IIRC the rule of thumb way is to find the terminus effective radius, then multiply it x 0.613 to get the minimum distance. My Sm = 170.5 in2. If I treat that area as a circle, divide by pi, and then square root to get the radius and then time the multiplier of 0.613, I get 4.5" minimum distance. Does that seem about right? I plan on adding a base with casters, at least in the back so I can move it like a furniture dolly and get it through doorways. and then add crown molding on top, so I think the 4.5" minimum is doable. I need to verify I can stand up the speaker at the point. Might have to have a removable top cap for the last bit.
I did stand up an 8' foot board that will be the front piece to show my wife since of scale, and her response was "I thought it was going all the way to the ceiling?". I said, " I can make it taller, don't worry😉".
Greg,
I know this has been asked many time in this thread, and you have patiently answered it. I have a note, but not a post #. You say, "IIRC the rule of thumb way is to find the terminus effective radius, then multiply it x 0.613 to get the minimum distance. My Sm = 170.5 in2. If I treat that area as a circle, divide by pi, and then square root to get the radius and then time the multiplier of 0.613, I get 4.5" minimum distance. Does that seem about right? I plan on adding a base with casters, at least in the back so I can move it like a furniture dolly and get it through doorways. and then add crown molding on top, so I think the 4.5" minimum is doable. I need to verify I can stand up the speaker at the point. Might have to have a removable top cap for the last bit.
I did stand up an 8' foot board that will be the front piece to show my wife since of scale, and her response was "I thought it was going all the way to the ceiling?". I said, " I can make it taller, don't worry😉".
Right, this is an unflared pipe's end correction, i.e. the pipe's air mass 'slug'/'plug' is > the pipe's cut length, so any closer and it begins to compress/damp it, but considering how far below Fs yours is loading it wouldn't hurt to 'squeeze' it a little, though too much and the horn will start acting like a large sealed cab except with strong/audible 1/2 WL harmonic notches in its response [not good].
Unfortunately, if there's any 'R-O-T' for how much compression one can get away with, I don't know it, so just did it by ear and even then it was for typical vents exiting the rear or bottom, not a ~15" dia. one.
That said, some folks have done the same as when flipped upside down for floor loading by adding a terminus [top] plate with slots on any exposed sides, while others have done similar to what TC did with his 'floor' model BIB, which was to leave it open, but 'scallop' the sides in a pleasing, yet random, pattern to create the terminus.
This 'grill' could be the removable 'tophat'. FWIW, many women have an 'eye' for such 'things' and it gets her a perceived full height column............. Old cast iron heater grates come to mind..........
In general, in a HIFI/HT app, having an air gap under a 'full-range' speaker, especially a BIB, is a bad plan, ditto resting it on something absorptive, so recommend something massive such as a built-up, felt covered MDF or other void free scrap 'pillar' to slide between the casters if you put them on the horns.
GM
Unfortunately, if there's any 'R-O-T' for how much compression one can get away with, I don't know it, so just did it by ear and even then it was for typical vents exiting the rear or bottom, not a ~15" dia. one.
That said, some folks have done the same as when flipped upside down for floor loading by adding a terminus [top] plate with slots on any exposed sides, while others have done similar to what TC did with his 'floor' model BIB, which was to leave it open, but 'scallop' the sides in a pleasing, yet random, pattern to create the terminus.
This 'grill' could be the removable 'tophat'. FWIW, many women have an 'eye' for such 'things' and it gets her a perceived full height column............. Old cast iron heater grates come to mind..........
In general, in a HIFI/HT app, having an air gap under a 'full-range' speaker, especially a BIB, is a bad plan, ditto resting it on something absorptive, so recommend something massive such as a built-up, felt covered MDF or other void free scrap 'pillar' to slide between the casters if you put them on the horns.
GM
Hi GM - Good to see you around!
I've been having a play with Godzilla's mk2 BIB calculator for the Eikona 2. It gives a tall, slim enclosure - 79h x 11d x 7.2w inches. Quite elegant and even doable as a twin driver column (doubling Vas) - 80h x 13.8d x 9.5w inches.
These are based on the measured specs - Fr 43Hz, Vas 10.99L, Qts 0.36. Does this look right?
I've been having a play with Godzilla's mk2 BIB calculator for the Eikona 2. It gives a tall, slim enclosure - 79h x 11d x 7.2w inches. Quite elegant and even doable as a twin driver column (doubling Vas) - 80h x 13.8d x 9.5w inches.
These are based on the measured specs - Fr 43Hz, Vas 10.99L, Qts 0.36. Does this look right?
Greets!
Glad you can! It's been pretty dodgy this past ~1.5 yrs. Hope all's well at your end and that from your sig line Jordan finally decided to hire you for all your efforts.
Don't have the BIB calculator loaded ATM, but I'm sure that with the relatively low Fs, tiny Vas and medium Qt, it's going to be a tall, slender tower and as you noted, doubling up drivers is even better as it raises Vas up to make for a smoother overall performer due to a better air mass plug Vs axial length ratio with [4] being about optimum.
Obviously, if you prefer to change it to lower the driver position/whatever, just change the Fs spec to get what you want.
GM
Glad you can! It's been pretty dodgy this past ~1.5 yrs. Hope all's well at your end and that from your sig line Jordan finally decided to hire you for all your efforts.
Don't have the BIB calculator loaded ATM, but I'm sure that with the relatively low Fs, tiny Vas and medium Qt, it's going to be a tall, slender tower and as you noted, doubling up drivers is even better as it raises Vas up to make for a smoother overall performer due to a better air mass plug Vs axial length ratio with [4] being about optimum.
Obviously, if you prefer to change it to lower the driver position/whatever, just change the Fs spec to get what you want.
GM
Ha! Ted decided he needed someone younger and trendier on board who understood new-fangled music streaming 🙂
Thanks for the info, GM.
Is there any objection if I offer the design on the EJJ website? If there is a problem with hosting the calculator, I'm happy to create a page for it.
Thanks for the info, GM.
Is there any objection if I offer the design on the EJJ website? If there is a problem with hosting the calculator, I'm happy to create a page for it.
You're welcome!
I resemble that remark! This 'old dog' has been having a hard time learning new 'tricks' for awhile now. 🙁
Not a sketch of the design, but the calculator isn't mine, just the underlying math, which I published long ago to hopefully get one made, so nothing to hide. Don't recall who did this latest version, though can't imagine them minding, but seems like just a link to it should be sufficient.
Then again, it would be nice to have a mirror site in case it goes down, but that's between you and Godzilla.
GM
I resemble that remark! This 'old dog' has been having a hard time learning new 'tricks' for awhile now. 🙁
Not a sketch of the design, but the calculator isn't mine, just the underlying math, which I published long ago to hopefully get one made, so nothing to hide. Don't recall who did this latest version, though can't imagine them minding, but seems like just a link to it should be sufficient.
Then again, it would be nice to have a mirror site in case it goes down, but that's between you and Godzilla.
GM
Fortunately, Ted likes new tricks - he still has a few in development in his lab.
OK, I've PMed Godzilla. Thanks for the help.
OK, I've PMed Godzilla. Thanks for the help.
Oh, I like them too, but spent the better part of an hour trying to use a friend's new smart phone recently at a restaurant and didn't figure out how to access Google, but then neither could our server who at most, looked college age to us oldtimers......... We were really surprised!
GM
GM
https://speakerprojects.wordpress.com/cabinet-types/bib-loudspeakers/bib-calculator/
Feel free to post the BIB calculator on the Jordan site. It's a design for everyone to enjoy! It's my runner up favorite type of design behind Open Baffle. If I didn't have the floor space, I'd go with BIBs.
Feel free to post the BIB calculator on the Jordan site. It's a design for everyone to enjoy! It's my runner up favorite type of design behind Open Baffle. If I didn't have the floor space, I'd go with BIBs.
Initial listening thoughts
So I was able to build one BIB. The lumber is cut for the second one.
In review, I used 23/32" 11 ply cabinet grade pine plywood. It appears to have very few voids. Small at that. and no knots. They are 8 ft tall, built with the internal baffle for 68". Tuned to 50Hz but with a larger Qts (about 33%) to account for my SET amp. I am using a FE166E driver, but I also have a pair of less used FE166En drivers. I used 3/4" quilt batting, one layer, on the internal baffle from closed end to just below the driver and on one of the side walls also from closed end to just below the driver. I have one layer 3/4" batting on the base. It was 11-3/4" from top of speaker to ceiling. 9 foot ceilings. It has a front baffle of 1x12 poplar that I had existing. Nothing scientific in the size and I think I have room for improvement in the baffle size/shape/material alone. I added a base made of 2x4's and Baltic birch plywood which raised it up 4". So now I have 7-3/4" from top to ceiling. Speaker is against the wall (touching the chair rail, so 1-1/4" from the wall) and near the corner (within 2 feet). I need to longer speaker cables to make it to the corner. I am using 22 ga magnet wire for speaker cable. I also added casters on the back of the base so the speaker can be moved like a hand truck. Tip and roll. When in position the caster don't touch.
So initial impressions. This thing is big. Every time I walk in the room I think "wow I can't believe I built a speaker that big!". I am getting used to its size.
Sound. It is big! In the evenings before the first child's bedtime I have a limited window, so I have been playing different types of music to get a feel what it does well and not. I have a BK16 (BLH kit from Madisound) as the other channel also with a FE166E driver. So the listening impressions are in comparison to that speaker(s) that I have used for about 2 years. Before that I had the FE166E's in some 1/2 ft3 sealed cabinets with a powered sub for the LF. That is the SEXy speaker build recommended by Bottlehead for use with the S.E.X. amp that I am using. All that said, the drivers are well broken in and I have a feel for what they can do. I have had them about 7 years in both the sealed cabinets and BLH's.
So, as I said they play big. And they like big music. Just a couple examples. The Allman Brothers Live from the Fillmore East sounded live. They rhythm section sounded great and was chugging along. Mark Knopfler's Speedway at Nazereth sounded big with rolling bass. I wasn't sure how low these were playing until I went into the next room. I could not believe the LF from a 6.5" driver. But my main go to for music is blues. Post War. Chicago preferably. And one thing the BK16's do very well is play post war blues. Recordings from 46 to mid 60's. Muddy, Wolf, Little Walter and many others. Most mono. Sound great. Sound musical. And that is what I was missing. The BIB as tuned did not sound musical. It sounded big. But it did not sound well at low and medium volumes. I kept turning it up until they sounded big. But still not musical. So what was missing? I guess it seems light in the mid bass and the mid range seemed smeared.
So I did a quick AB listening test with my wife. Some Muddy Waters playing acoustic. This stuff you can feel in your toes. Sounds great through the BK-16s, just sounds big with the BIB. Because of lack of time and trying to be resourceful, I stuck an 8 ohm wirewound resister in the + lead and listened with and without. Nothing scientific about the size. It is what I had. So AB test with my wife, not telling here what I was doing. She picked the sound with the 8 ohm resister in line both times. When I asked why. She said "it sounded more musical". I said "exactly! Thanks for confirming what I was hearing."
So what does that mean? Adding an 8 ohm resister effectively raising the Q. Does that mean the box is still not big enough? Not enough acoustic loading?
Or can this issue be addressed with damping in the closed end? Or base? Too much mids going out the top? I have not had a chance to play with internal damping and frankly would like to use as little as possible. My BK-16's have minimal damping.
This weekend, time permitting, I will add some crown molding on top to get me closer the ceiling. Within 4". I will also play around with damping at the closed end.
thanks for your help thus far Greg. I will attempt to post a picture from my phone on my next post. Baby is up, gotta go.
So I was able to build one BIB. The lumber is cut for the second one.
In review, I used 23/32" 11 ply cabinet grade pine plywood. It appears to have very few voids. Small at that. and no knots. They are 8 ft tall, built with the internal baffle for 68". Tuned to 50Hz but with a larger Qts (about 33%) to account for my SET amp. I am using a FE166E driver, but I also have a pair of less used FE166En drivers. I used 3/4" quilt batting, one layer, on the internal baffle from closed end to just below the driver and on one of the side walls also from closed end to just below the driver. I have one layer 3/4" batting on the base. It was 11-3/4" from top of speaker to ceiling. 9 foot ceilings. It has a front baffle of 1x12 poplar that I had existing. Nothing scientific in the size and I think I have room for improvement in the baffle size/shape/material alone. I added a base made of 2x4's and Baltic birch plywood which raised it up 4". So now I have 7-3/4" from top to ceiling. Speaker is against the wall (touching the chair rail, so 1-1/4" from the wall) and near the corner (within 2 feet). I need to longer speaker cables to make it to the corner. I am using 22 ga magnet wire for speaker cable. I also added casters on the back of the base so the speaker can be moved like a hand truck. Tip and roll. When in position the caster don't touch.
So initial impressions. This thing is big. Every time I walk in the room I think "wow I can't believe I built a speaker that big!". I am getting used to its size.
Sound. It is big! In the evenings before the first child's bedtime I have a limited window, so I have been playing different types of music to get a feel what it does well and not. I have a BK16 (BLH kit from Madisound) as the other channel also with a FE166E driver. So the listening impressions are in comparison to that speaker(s) that I have used for about 2 years. Before that I had the FE166E's in some 1/2 ft3 sealed cabinets with a powered sub for the LF. That is the SEXy speaker build recommended by Bottlehead for use with the S.E.X. amp that I am using. All that said, the drivers are well broken in and I have a feel for what they can do. I have had them about 7 years in both the sealed cabinets and BLH's.
So, as I said they play big. And they like big music. Just a couple examples. The Allman Brothers Live from the Fillmore East sounded live. They rhythm section sounded great and was chugging along. Mark Knopfler's Speedway at Nazereth sounded big with rolling bass. I wasn't sure how low these were playing until I went into the next room. I could not believe the LF from a 6.5" driver. But my main go to for music is blues. Post War. Chicago preferably. And one thing the BK16's do very well is play post war blues. Recordings from 46 to mid 60's. Muddy, Wolf, Little Walter and many others. Most mono. Sound great. Sound musical. And that is what I was missing. The BIB as tuned did not sound musical. It sounded big. But it did not sound well at low and medium volumes. I kept turning it up until they sounded big. But still not musical. So what was missing? I guess it seems light in the mid bass and the mid range seemed smeared.
So I did a quick AB listening test with my wife. Some Muddy Waters playing acoustic. This stuff you can feel in your toes. Sounds great through the BK-16s, just sounds big with the BIB. Because of lack of time and trying to be resourceful, I stuck an 8 ohm wirewound resister in the + lead and listened with and without. Nothing scientific about the size. It is what I had. So AB test with my wife, not telling here what I was doing. She picked the sound with the 8 ohm resister in line both times. When I asked why. She said "it sounded more musical". I said "exactly! Thanks for confirming what I was hearing."
So what does that mean? Adding an 8 ohm resister effectively raising the Q. Does that mean the box is still not big enough? Not enough acoustic loading?
Or can this issue be addressed with damping in the closed end? Or base? Too much mids going out the top? I have not had a chance to play with internal damping and frankly would like to use as little as possible. My BK-16's have minimal damping.
This weekend, time permitting, I will add some crown molding on top to get me closer the ceiling. Within 4". I will also play around with damping at the closed end.
thanks for your help thus far Greg. I will attempt to post a picture from my phone on my next post. Baby is up, gotta go.
Attempt at picture
Sorry about the sideways photo
I normally have the BiB closer to the corner. Just where it is this photo
Sorry about the sideways photo
I normally have the BiB closer to the corner. Just where it is this photo
Attachments
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>>> I also added casters on the back of the base so the speaker can be moved like a hand truck. Tip and roll. When in position the caster don't touch.
Excellent idea! Enjoy parenthood!
Excellent idea! Enjoy parenthood!
Well... made it to the (current) final page.. 😀 Great thread, need some time to digest all this. I came here looking for an interesting way to extend the low end of my small line arrays. Make them easier to blend to a mono sub. Now I'm wondering if perhaps I should make a BiB sub that extends higher, blending easier as well. Or both... 
For 'sub' duty, they work best overall as ~two octave pipes, i.e. XO to take advantage of its strong 3rd harmonic dip to maximize its gain BW by minimizing damping requirements.
If a bit more HF BW is desired, then make it a tapped variant that fills in this dip, adding another half octave of usable BW along with greater bass damping and much greater mid bass efficiency.
GM
If a bit more HF BW is desired, then make it a tapped variant that fills in this dip, adding another half octave of usable BW along with greater bass damping and much greater mid bass efficiency.
GM
GM,
Anybody on the forum you recall has done a "tapped BIB" sub? Would be interesting to see their project.
IIRC you damaged a wall in your house with some monster LF speakers (sorry, I might be wrong) - were they BIB variants?
Anybody on the forum you recall has done a "tapped BIB" sub? Would be interesting to see their project.
IIRC you damaged a wall in your house with some monster LF speakers (sorry, I might be wrong) - were they BIB variants?
Search 'bjorno' in the subwoofer forum, who has done numerous TTL sims [some of them built IIRC], which we both prefer over a TH in a true HIFI app, though physically not exactly like a BIB, still close enough to get a good idea of what to expect and seems like I've posted a few actual T-BIBs IIRC.
It was a pair of DIY Servo-Drive Contrabass kits with 500 clean watts/channel and wish it had only been one wall! The ceiling in the ~16 x 24 ft HIFI/HT room fell on me along with a 8" depth's worth of blown in insulation, boxes of stuff [some pretty heavy] and the rest of the house's ceilings along with virtually all the wall, drywall seams splitting, which 15+ yrs later I still haven't completely repaired it all 🙁.
Apparently, its 'floating' floor, stick built frame and lapboard siding construction along with only crumbly, 3/8" thick drywall from 1952 has [had?] a ~14-16 Hz Fs back then, so between already having to sustain numerous pipe organ symphonies, action movie LFE at > 120 dB peaks, the then new bass 'monster' movie, U-571 had enough 'Sturm und Drang' to literally 'bring the house down' on me, so until such time I can buy a better built house, etc. [likely never], I won't be able to enjoy all of some movie's soundtracks as they were intended :bawling:.
GM
edit: The ~BIB 'subs' I built tended to be tuned to either 42 or ~27.5 Hz since it was the lowest note of any consumer available recorded music at the time, though I did build a stereo corner loaded pair tuned to 16 Hz so I could play with a then new high tech bass synthesizer that 'doubled down' whatever bass was played, so Jimmy Smith, etc. recordings became closer to 'live' [got a whole lot 'fuller'], but with only ~5 mm 15"/75 W low Qt woofers, the house just got 'tickled', relatively speaker.
Hmm, hadn't thought about how they, plus the annual high winds, storms might have weakened the house over 15-20 yrs of regular use though........
It was a pair of DIY Servo-Drive Contrabass kits with 500 clean watts/channel and wish it had only been one wall! The ceiling in the ~16 x 24 ft HIFI/HT room fell on me along with a 8" depth's worth of blown in insulation, boxes of stuff [some pretty heavy] and the rest of the house's ceilings along with virtually all the wall, drywall seams splitting, which 15+ yrs later I still haven't completely repaired it all 🙁.
Apparently, its 'floating' floor, stick built frame and lapboard siding construction along with only crumbly, 3/8" thick drywall from 1952 has [had?] a ~14-16 Hz Fs back then, so between already having to sustain numerous pipe organ symphonies, action movie LFE at > 120 dB peaks, the then new bass 'monster' movie, U-571 had enough 'Sturm und Drang' to literally 'bring the house down' on me, so until such time I can buy a better built house, etc. [likely never], I won't be able to enjoy all of some movie's soundtracks as they were intended :bawling:.
GM
edit: The ~BIB 'subs' I built tended to be tuned to either 42 or ~27.5 Hz since it was the lowest note of any consumer available recorded music at the time, though I did build a stereo corner loaded pair tuned to 16 Hz so I could play with a then new high tech bass synthesizer that 'doubled down' whatever bass was played, so Jimmy Smith, etc. recordings became closer to 'live' [got a whole lot 'fuller'], but with only ~5 mm 15"/75 W low Qt woofers, the house just got 'tickled', relatively speaker.
Hmm, hadn't thought about how they, plus the annual high winds, storms might have weakened the house over 15-20 yrs of regular use though........
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IMO for audio purposes (as oposed to FX in as in home theater) one is sacrificing some fidelity in the crossover frequency is over 50-70 Hz.
My BIBs reach down to 30 Hz and I won't say I can be extremely directional with the LF material, but testing with 50 Hz frequencies (actually one channel hum 😉 ) I can feel some difference, so I would say that is the limit for which position of the driver relative to the ear starts to mean less.
But again, it is just my opinion. I have plans to make front horns for my FE108ESigmas in the future and use my BIBs for the low end.
Cheers!
Gaston
Bingo! dbx 120x. Just noticed they're still selling it after all these decades as the 120A, though with more features and I imagine more sophisticated programming/better output. It sure was a lot of fun for adding to Halloween, racing, etc., recordings as well as BW challenged action/war movies on OTA and early cable TV.
GM