Konnichiwa,
I am not sure if it would be correct to term the PM-66 as "incompetently" designed.
Apart from that, to talk about "Cables" in solation may seem in tune with the generally reductionist approach in modern "science", but I must submit that divorcing the cable from the context within which it is used is not particulary usefull and will not yield any relevant results.
Investigate the cable as a thing in itself and nothing makes sense, investigate it as an interconnection solution between speaker and amplifer (both REAL devices and not idealised ones) in a high EMI/RFI condition and some things may start makeing sense.
Any insistence on "lets just talk cables here" results merely in a complete waste of time and effort, so I'm outta here.
Sayonara
janneman said:
I am not sure if it would be correct to term the PM-66 as "incompetently" designed.
Apart from that, to talk about "Cables" in solation may seem in tune with the generally reductionist approach in modern "science", but I must submit that divorcing the cable from the context within which it is used is not particulary usefull and will not yield any relevant results.
Investigate the cable as a thing in itself and nothing makes sense, investigate it as an interconnection solution between speaker and amplifer (both REAL devices and not idealised ones) in a high EMI/RFI condition and some things may start makeing sense.
Any insistence on "lets just talk cables here" results merely in a complete waste of time and effort, so I'm outta here.
Sayonara
janneman said:
Please re-calculate, I believe you got the units messed up..
The head in a vice argument has little to do with differential localization, but it is extremely important and confounding for absolute localization...to the point where absolute is not possible to measure..
janneman said:
We agree on this..while using tones is just dandy for lab research, it don't float my boat w/r to soundstage imaging...
But I have a sneaking suspicion that we localize at the same general level..maybe better, maybe worse...but not hugely different from the researchers....calculate (watch those units!!
) what it takes to distinguish the direction of a source ten feet away, 12 inches to the side. Now, setup an opaque screen that is acoustically transparent...have a cowbell struck repetitively behind it, and point to the location of the source..you should be able to get within a foot or so...regardless of where the source is..Cheers, John
Konnichiwa,
Solid Core cables are generally sold quite expensively by many cable makers for high quality speaker connection. UK Twin & Mains Ring is also a solid core cable.
The usual way. Read my articles in TNT-Audio on the subject if you want to know.
Sayonara
janneman said:
Solid Core cables are generally sold quite expensively by many cable makers for high quality speaker connection. UK Twin & Mains Ring is also a solid core cable.
janneman said:
The usual way. Read my articles in TNT-Audio on the subject if you want to know.
Sayonara
fcserei said:
the heck with ITD...hmmmm...interesting..
fcserei said:and somebody think that cables still matter
Hmmm...who would that be??
In point of fact, I have never heard a difference, nor have I ever tried..when discussing how they possibly could, I came across the incongruity of 20Khz bandwidth with 1.5 to 5 uSec localization capabilities...something between those two specs doesn't make sense..the end of my endeavor will either prove conclusively that the RLC parameters do affect stereo reproduction at levels previously unknown, by actual measurements both electrical and through audibility studies by real researchers....or, will be inconclusive by showing no relationship..nulls aren't necessarily strong..either conclusion is perfectly acceptible, I have a day job (so far)..and am still content with my #12 extension cord PA speaker runs, and the #24 zips I use with the HT..they meet my criteria...the #12's are robust, the #24's make the speakers work..and are out of sight..
fcserei said:
You must be able to yell very loud...I'm probably about 100 miles from NJ...
tomorrow is another day..
Cheers guys, it has been nice..
John
jneutron said:
Of course, but only in stereo. The added extra comb filtering of a stereo speaker pair combined with the ear's comb filtering produce a set of confusing directional clues ( how about 15-25 dB dips and peaks at the smallest head movement contradictionary to the normal headmovement related learned clues - that is one big reason that you have to learn to listen to stereo to be a "golden ear") which exaggregates the smallest differences and imbalances in the stereo reproduction chain. Just see how they mention "soudstage depth and width changes" in the cable tests, besides the compulsory "better defined bass and smoother highs"
fcserei said:
Of course, but only in stereo. The added extra comb filtering of a stereo speaker pair combined with the ear's comb filtering produce a set of confusing directional clues ( how about 15-25 dB dips and peaks at the smallest head movement contradictionary to the normal headmovement related learned clues - that is one big reason that you have to learn to listen to stereo to be a "golden ear") which exaggregates the smallest differences and imbalances in the stereo reproduction chain. Just see how they mention "soudstage depth and width changes" in the cable tests, besides the compulsory "better defined bass and smoother highs"
Yah, the descriptors are rather interesting, to say the least..it's kinda hard to take those and apply them to the RLC's..
Quite honestly, that is why I am attacking it from the geometric/theoretical end first..
As a side, I have made, and will continue to do so, some cable variations for audio guys to listen to...I am concentrating on defining the RLC, and seeing what listeners "hear".
That is how I came across the relationship L * C = 1034 * DC. L in nH per foot, C in pf per foot, I can make any guage wire I want..
I can design and build a cable with any L, any C, any R, as long as they follow that equational restriction..one cannot exceed the speed of light, now can we??
Cheers, John
This thread really grew in a hurry! 
Since back EMF issues are subjective to speaker design, and there does not seem to be any manufacturer that designs cables specifically to eliminate this effect, it is logical to not address this issue at this time.
If human sensitivity to IID and ITD were determined using signals of a transient nature, it seems logical to look at whether reflection of signals due to changes in conductor cross section throughout the current driven path might cause audible effects. Has anyone done testing in this respect? I suspect different cable design would effect this. I am tempted to do this using MLS type signals to see if there differences can be measured.
It's becomming rather difficult to find a speck of diamond in all this. I think the thread starter wanted a more constructive discussion.
Since back EMF issues are subjective to speaker design, and there does not seem to be any manufacturer that designs cables specifically to eliminate this effect, it is logical to not address this issue at this time.
If human sensitivity to IID and ITD were determined using signals of a transient nature, it seems logical to look at whether reflection of signals due to changes in conductor cross section throughout the current driven path might cause audible effects. Has anyone done testing in this respect? I suspect different cable design would effect this. I am tempted to do this using MLS type signals to see if there differences can be measured.
It's becomming rather difficult to find a speck of diamond in all this. I think the thread starter wanted a more constructive discussion.
jneutron said:
the heck with ITD...hmmmm...interesting..
Hmmm...who would that be??
In point of fact, I have never heard a difference, nor have I ever tried..when discussing how they possibly could, I came across the incongruity of 20Khz bandwidth with 1.5 to 5 uSec localization capabilities...something between those two specs doesn't make sense..the end of my endeavor will either prove conclusively that the RLC parameters do affect stereo reproduction at levels previously unknown, by actual measurements both electrical and through audibility studies by real researchers....or, will be inconclusive by showing no relationship..nulls aren't necessarily strong..either conclusion is perfectly acceptible, I have a day job (so far)..and am still content with my #12 extension cord PA speaker runs, and the #24 zips I use with the HT..they meet my criteria...the #12's are robust, the #24's make the speakers work..and are out of sight..
You must be able to yell very loud...I'm probably about 100 miles from NJ...
tomorrow is another day..
Cheers guys, it has been nice..
John
With the ITD IID HRTF thing, sometimes we filter out what we can't understand at the time, but it might get considered later.
The AlphaCores are the most expensive cables I have ever paid for, and I made a decision based on engineering judgement before taking it into consideration, then looked at reviews to see if they support my expectations or not. Before this I used self braided cables, also done based on engineering judgement. Each time there is a noticeable improvment that allowed me to stick with it untill I found somthing better.
It seems now how do we test the cables to coorelate the difference in what we hear with what test results can show.
soongsc said:
1. Why is this an engineering desiridatum? Aren't the strands in electrical contact (unless horribly corroded)?
2. I do not understand what you're saying here. If you move the wires closer together, doesn't the magnetic field interaction increase? And why is that interaction a bad thing in engineering terms?
3. Constant to what level? Skin effect isn't something that's "on" or "off." And as jneutron is fond of pointing out, it's a fairly meaningless concept with round conductors that are close-spaced. So what engineering critereon are you using? How do you determine skin effect in this situation? What's the inductance versus frequency and how does that interact with the impedance of your speakers?
Thanks!
SY said:
Have you referred to the site I posted earlier? Also have you looked at the contruct of the mentioned cable? When you mention round conductors it seems like you are talking about somthing different.
After you have looked at the site and the cable construct (you don't have to agree) the when I explain a little more, it's easier to explain.
How do you select your cables? We don't have to agree with each other, but I think a good discussion might spurr some new ideas.
I would be interested in knowing where jneutron mentions the meaningless of round conductors placed close together to know more about what the theory is.
Hi!
I've not yet read everything, so maybe someone else has already brought up the following
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/cableInteractions.pdf
(don't tell the AES tho)
keyser
I've not yet read everything, so maybe someone else has already brought up the following
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/cableInteractions.pdf
(don't tell the AES tho)
keyser
SY said:
As you know, RCL forms the impedance characteristic throughout the frequency range of interest. R alone is characterized at DC resistance. Since the cross section area size effects the DC resistance, the effective cross section area for a given frequency effects the resistance at that frequency. So if you use the skin depth of the highest frequency of interest to calculate the effective cross section area, and use that area as your cable thickness or radius for cable design, then the effective cross section is constant from that frequency down to DC, thus resulting in constant resistance through that frequency range.
CL are things that I normally don't think about because I think all manufacturers have brought them down to a level that is insigificant. And these relate with issues on the macrolevel.
keyser said:Hi!
I've not yet read everything, so maybe someone else has already brought up the following
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/cableInteractions.pdf
(don't tell the AES tho)
keyser
Looks like interesting material. I'll read it and see if there is anything new.
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