Fair enough, cheers. I haven't kept up too well, just dipping in and out, so wasn't sure what OP was running for drivers. 🙂
Chris
Yeah, I don't know what this means, but if you are suggesting you can adjust frequency response by ear and end up with a flat response, that is the right picture to describe what I think of that. It's not going to happen. If it were even remotely possible people wouldn't buy measurement mics.
You've gone well out of your way to NOT discuss the harmonics issue in any capacity.
The measurement OP provided didn't have any harmonics.
The 16 hz note (and all other notes) should be loaded with harmonics, usually at least as strong, if not stronger, than the fundamental.
If you think you can adjust the spl level of the fundamental properly by ear while it's being swamped by harmonics that are louder than the fundamental and higher in frequency where the ear is more sensitive (relatively louder and literally louder) you are sadly mistaken.
This is just common sense, if you want a flat frequency response you have to measure. Adjusting by ear might give you something that subjectively sounds pleasant but it's not going to be flat response.
Going by the sim alone (IIRC), this is likely going to need a good bit of eq with a healthy boost at 16 hz.
Anthony I'm pulling your leg, successfully.
You are correct. In some ranks of pipes there are very pronounced harmonics.
But not all.
The flue pipes have stronger fundamentals than the harmonics. Although the harmonics are there.
The reed pipes are mostly harmonics .
There are great papers available on line that show spectral content of different organ ranks.
But this is a side show for the matter at hand.
Power to the subs and if it can be balanced.
Enough electrical power run to the amp rack that it can run properly.
What is the actual tuning frequency of the sub? Important so that Ron does not ask it to blow itself up when he finally gets enough signal to power it as desired.
You are correct. In some ranks of pipes there are very pronounced harmonics.
But not all.
The flue pipes have stronger fundamentals than the harmonics. Although the harmonics are there.
The reed pipes are mostly harmonics .
There are great papers available on line that show spectral content of different organ ranks.
But this is a side show for the matter at hand.
Power to the subs and if it can be balanced.
Enough electrical power run to the amp rack that it can run properly.
What is the actual tuning frequency of the sub? Important so that Ron does not ask it to blow itself up when he finally gets enough signal to power it as desired.
15 or 16 hz I think. I've been waiting for someone to post a link to tb46's design that OP built. I'm not going to search for it myself, this thread and the one that proceeded it are about 5000 pages long.
With the original design I can find the Inuke settings to protect the driver (assuming the actual tuning came out the same as the simulated tuning, which OP has not confirmed even though it's just a matter of looking at the cone while sweeping frequencies). Ideally the actual tuning frequency should be noted for both the subs, but starting with the SI 18 box would be a start.
🙂.
A peaking EQ filter, a low shelving filter, a high shelving filter, a low pass filter or a high pass filter can be specified for each of the six available bands.
I did some tests last night. Got the Samson bump box inline with the iNuke. TruART shows a measurement of 0.280 mV from the Artisan sound engine. I have no idea how accurate that reading might be. I made some measurements using REW.
Measurements of the pedal output is showing those same spikes below 16 hz.. I measured at 16 Hz, 32 Hz and 64 Hz.. I used different organ sounds. The spike was there for all of them. This was for tones coming out of the Artisan system going directly into the Line Input of my laptop computer. The computer is at the church, so posting those measurements will have to wait until I go back.
Used the Kilowatt box to determine electrical power use for the iNuke. A very Loud passage with no bump box was consuming 42.1 watts for the iNuke only. With bump box, same passage - the power consumption was 136 watts. That is what the amp is drawing from the electrical outlet.
I adjusted the volume on the iNuke so I was getting the second LED to blink - occasionally for louder passages. I spent considerable time tweaking the Artisan configuration to get a good balance. I spent several hours on this task.
I did not experiment with changes in the iNuke software. That will happen when I next go back.
I'd say the quality of the sound I'm hearing is better with the Samson box in the mix. But I have NO miked measurements yet that will support that. It is simply what my ears are telling me. And that is hardly something that anyone would take seriously.
I finally left the church at 4 AM this morning.
BO
Measurements of the pedal output is showing those same spikes below 16 hz.. I measured at 16 Hz, 32 Hz and 64 Hz.. I used different organ sounds. The spike was there for all of them. This was for tones coming out of the Artisan system going directly into the Line Input of my laptop computer. The computer is at the church, so posting those measurements will have to wait until I go back.
Used the Kilowatt box to determine electrical power use for the iNuke. A very Loud passage with no bump box was consuming 42.1 watts for the iNuke only. With bump box, same passage - the power consumption was 136 watts. That is what the amp is drawing from the electrical outlet.
I adjusted the volume on the iNuke so I was getting the second LED to blink - occasionally for louder passages. I spent considerable time tweaking the Artisan configuration to get a good balance. I spent several hours on this task.
I did not experiment with changes in the iNuke software. That will happen when I next go back.
I'd say the quality of the sound I'm hearing is better with the Samson box in the mix. But I have NO miked measurements yet that will support that. It is simply what my ears are telling me. And that is hardly something that anyone would take seriously.
I finally left the church at 4 AM this morning.
BO
BO, a simple test you might want to run: Turn the amp on everything BUT the sub off, and play some pedal. Comment on what you hear....
This will eliminate much of the overtones that can fool you about volume level.
j
This will eliminate much of the overtones that can fool you about volume level.
j
jplesset - thanks for the suggestion. Though, I'm not quite following what you're suggesting here:
"Turn the amp on everything BUT the sub off...." ???
I just bought two used Rolls bump boxes this morning on eBay. These use RCA connectors, instead of XLRs. I already have enough patch cables for these. They will allow me to do a little experimenting with the Crown XLS1000s.
As I tinkered around using the Samson bump box last night, I also turned UP the gain control for the manuals to balance the mix. Since I've learned that the Artisan signals to the pedals are low, it seems logical to assume the same is true for the signals for the manuals. I'm going to try adding preamps to at least two of the amps for the manuals to determine the following:
1. Does it significantly improve the sound quality for the speakers? (I've already said I think it did for the pedals.)
2. How much more power (watts) would these amps consume with the signal strength higher? (I'm trying to find out how many watts all the combined amps will draw when the organ is played at full volume. This will help me better determine if one electrical outlet has any chance of supplying the needed current.)
I'd have to buy new patch cables if I bought more of the same Samson bump boxes. I'm hoping that doing this will allow me to experiment for fewer bucks - at least in the short term. If the sound is improved, perhaps I can replace these used boxes with something better for the long-term. Such purchases (boxes and required cables) can be spread out over time to accommodate my limited personal cash flow. The Samson box and the two required patch cables, for example, cost over a $100. I got these two used boxes for $28 each - AND I already have enough of the right cables for getting the signals to the box and into the amps.
BO
"Turn the amp on everything BUT the sub off...." ???
I just bought two used Rolls bump boxes this morning on eBay. These use RCA connectors, instead of XLRs. I already have enough patch cables for these. They will allow me to do a little experimenting with the Crown XLS1000s.
As I tinkered around using the Samson bump box last night, I also turned UP the gain control for the manuals to balance the mix. Since I've learned that the Artisan signals to the pedals are low, it seems logical to assume the same is true for the signals for the manuals. I'm going to try adding preamps to at least two of the amps for the manuals to determine the following:
1. Does it significantly improve the sound quality for the speakers? (I've already said I think it did for the pedals.)
2. How much more power (watts) would these amps consume with the signal strength higher? (I'm trying to find out how many watts all the combined amps will draw when the organ is played at full volume. This will help me better determine if one electrical outlet has any chance of supplying the needed current.)
I'd have to buy new patch cables if I bought more of the same Samson bump boxes. I'm hoping that doing this will allow me to experiment for fewer bucks - at least in the short term. If the sound is improved, perhaps I can replace these used boxes with something better for the long-term. Such purchases (boxes and required cables) can be spread out over time to accommodate my limited personal cash flow. The Samson box and the two required patch cables, for example, cost over a $100. I got these two used boxes for $28 each - AND I already have enough of the right cables for getting the signals to the box and into the amps.
BO
Sounds like you are making headway.
Kind of confused how TruRTA can make electrical measurements.
Kind of confused how TruRTA can make electrical measurements.
I am too. I said I have no idea how it could do so. Therefore, I do not take the indicated measurement too seriously.
JAG - I'm willing to research this. But the discussion was all over the map for several weeks. And the design evolved over time.
Do you just need to see the final dimensions, or do you need to see other items as well?
BO
Anthony gave a simple test to see where the tuning point is.
Use the software frequency generator posted on this thread. Set of a sine wave and slowwwllly sweep towards the low end. start at say 25 hertz and drop down in frequency by 1 hertz increments. ( yes it hertz but somebodies gotta do it).
The point where the cone movement is least is your tuning frequency.
For this to work there must be noticeable cone movement. About an 1/8th to a 1/4 inch.
And you need two bodies or lots of patience.
The amp setting must be the same for all the testing.
This information will aid greatly in getting you a setup for the DSP that will not shred your woofer.
I was hoping for Hornresp inputs for the final design. But if there is none for the final design then I would need exact dimensions of everything including the port.
Or you could do as Mark just said and find the actual tuning and we could figure something out from that.
I'd still prefer to sim the box too though AND have you find the actual tuning by doing the test Mark just described.
The reason i want both is this - I want to use Hornresp to find the proper hpf settings for the Inuke. I can't use Hornresp for that if I don't have something to sim. And I want to make sure the sim is accurate so ideally you should measure the actual tuning so I can adjust the sim to account for reality if necessary.
At this point, with 136 watts it isn't a big deal. But when you get some real power flowing you might damage the driver.
Ideally I'd like to sim the other sub too, and have you measure the actual tuning to make sure both boxes will be protected with the hpf.
Or you could do as Mark just said and find the actual tuning and we could figure something out from that.
I'd still prefer to sim the box too though AND have you find the actual tuning by doing the test Mark just described.
The reason i want both is this - I want to use Hornresp to find the proper hpf settings for the Inuke. I can't use Hornresp for that if I don't have something to sim. And I want to make sure the sim is accurate so ideally you should measure the actual tuning so I can adjust the sim to account for reality if necessary.
At this point, with 136 watts it isn't a big deal. But when you get some real power flowing you might damage the driver.
Ideally I'd like to sim the other sub too, and have you measure the actual tuning to make sure both boxes will be protected with the hpf.
Dimensions and port size would allow a quick simulation.
I'm pretty sure Ron could supply those bits of info.
Although he might be a bit of a zombie today.
We better pick on him while he is slower!
😀
Do you have the gain turned all the way up on the DI box? And the Inuke volume control knobs all the way up too? And still only getting 136 watts and the second light to light up?
What is a TruART? Does it know the differences among RMS and peak and music? And so on? Do you have a strategy to roughly crosscheck that number (which seems to be propelling you head first into fresh new purchases)?
Ben
I save all my simulations. And I think this is what was specified.
Should at least give us a starting point.
I get impedance minimum at 15.8 hertz and zero crossing at about 12 hertz.
Sims are useful but this is spit balling until we get something a little more concrete.
Yup, that's a start. I would like actual dimensions so I could sim it as offset mltl (as the height is probably enough to affect the 1/4 waves within the passband) but this is fine for now and at least gives me a chance to practice with Hornresp filter settings.
I prefer to use the data-bass measured t/s for simulating the SI 18 in lieu of t/s directly measured by OP.
I did not include any inductance effects in this sim, I would do so in a more final version when recommending exact filter settings, this as I said is just for practice.
All I wanted to do here is get some filter settings so the driver wouldn't go past xmax below tuning with this sim, and keep the frequency response pretty much the same as unfiltered.
Left column shows Hornresp inputs, frequency response and excursion of this design with no filters.
Right column shows I applied a 20 hz 2nd order LR as a first step. Then in the filter wizard I added a 21 hz low shelf with q = .68 and gain = 5.9. I also threw in a 20 hz parametric eq boost with q = 1.6 and gain = 2.5.
The result is frequency response almost identical to the unfiltered response and the filtered design never exceeds xmax below tuning.
Easy as pie. And all done without using any settings below 20 hz, so Inuke friendly.
Maybe later I'll do up one with inductance effects added, maybe not. It doesn't really matter until I get more exact dimensions and ideally verified actual tuning by OP.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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