Hoping for a fast recovery for both Ron and Art. I've gotten to know both of you guys. And it's sad to hear about such serious health problems.
Ron,
The doctors were quite impressed with the speed of my recovery, and I have no issues now that I have been released from the hospital, other than pain meds don't seem to work on the eye pain- if I take enough for the eye to not bother me, it's "lights out" for my brain, need to find an opthamologist to get me the kind of eye drops with a local pain killer- the hospital gave me only one course of those, enough for about 5 hours of the 110 hours they kept me, 26 hours longer than they had said the were going to release me originally, it was like being a prisoner, was not even allowed to step outside for some sun and fresh air.
That said, by the time I find an "on plan" ophthalmologist, the scratched cornea will probably be pain free 🙄...
North American Health "Careless" system, perhaps the worst in the free world, but I can't complain about the quality of the surgeons, their cutting, stiching and stapling "got 'er done".
Art
Ouch. Maybe call your insurance company. See if they can point you to an eye doc. Living with pain is, IMHO, an overrated builder of character.
BO
BO
It has been a long time since I was trying to build speakers for our church organ. Some might like to hear the organ.
https://soundcloud.com/stream
Bach On
https://soundcloud.com/stream
Bach On
The link just sends me to soundcloud. Not to a specific song.
But looking forward to hearing your work!
But looking forward to hearing your work!
Ditto.
But in truth, a sound clip is like a snapshot of a painting in a museum illuminated by a kerosene lamp, removed a dozen steps from encountering the thing itself. I'd say about the same thing for professional recordings and to the folks who think they can get transported to Carnegie Hall.
The measurements are better at revealing the reality to audio builders, or at least that's about as meaningful a presentation of how the system is working as is feasible without an air flight.
B.
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Does this one work?
https://soundcloud.com/bach-on
BO
P.S. No. That is not me playing. It is a MIDI file being played on our church organ. The 8 foot flute is waiting on a visit from our pipe tuner. And the 4 flute pipes are even worse.
https://soundcloud.com/bach-on
BO
P.S. No. That is not me playing. It is a MIDI file being played on our church organ. The 8 foot flute is waiting on a visit from our pipe tuner. And the 4 flute pipes are even worse.
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Yes sir it works indeed!
Listening to this wonderful transcription of the Motet Sinet dem Herrn in neues Lied.
first time I have heard an organ transcription of the Motets. They are originally vocal works with a possible instrumental accompaniment. Nicely following the vocal lines with your registration.
Just started the fuge from the BWV542. One of my favorites.
Not so easy to play either. Quite a bit of hopping around on the pedal board to pull this off properly.
Nice sounds. And very pleased to have had a tiny part in helping you make this possible.
Just started the Trio Sonata. Like the gedeckt or Bourdon in the low end.
P.S. Who is that distinguished looking gentleman in the picture?
Cornell Sanders 😀
Listening to this wonderful transcription of the Motet Sinet dem Herrn in neues Lied.
first time I have heard an organ transcription of the Motets. They are originally vocal works with a possible instrumental accompaniment. Nicely following the vocal lines with your registration.
Just started the fuge from the BWV542. One of my favorites.
Not so easy to play either. Quite a bit of hopping around on the pedal board to pull this off properly.
Nice sounds. And very pleased to have had a tiny part in helping you make this possible.
Just started the Trio Sonata. Like the gedeckt or Bourdon in the low end.
P.S. Who is that distinguished looking gentleman in the picture?
Cornell Sanders 😀
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Great music. Thanks.
Still looking for a smart way to connect the music to the REW real time analyzer without DAC or ADC or mics in the way. Post if you can educate me how to do it.
Ben
Still looking for a smart way to connect the music to the REW real time analyzer without DAC or ADC or mics in the way. Post if you can educate me how to do it.
Ben
If you're running Windows, you might be able to set the Input Device as "Stereo Mix", which is the feed from what's going to the headphone socket of your device.
Works in Audacity (which can do spectrum analysis after recording). Haven't tried it in REW, but it's worth a look.
Chris
OK, just wired-up my MacBook using the headphone output and the $22 Behringer DAC for input. On REW, the result is both absolutely flat and better than -60dB THD (as always). And likewise near perfect for noise RTA.
With that set-up, I ran the nice Fugue in g minor end to end (other pieces and other recording methods likely have more pedal bass). Below is the RTA peak for the entire 5 minute piece, first complete FR and second enlarging the bass. The recording may have included trucks driving by, a door slamming, wind, A/C compressors, etc that show up on a peak trace like here.
There are modest outputs visible at 22.8, 29.9, 49.4, and 58.2. And there is some very small pick-up of something at 17.3. (Pipe organs have better defined and musically coherent peaks on an RTA.) To be solidly audible, the organ pedal notes have look pretty strong on an RTA.
I urge everybody to have a look at their music collection to see what really is playing when you think you are hearing great notes from a double bass.
Ben
With that set-up, I ran the nice Fugue in g minor end to end (other pieces and other recording methods likely have more pedal bass). Below is the RTA peak for the entire 5 minute piece, first complete FR and second enlarging the bass. The recording may have included trucks driving by, a door slamming, wind, A/C compressors, etc that show up on a peak trace like here.
There are modest outputs visible at 22.8, 29.9, 49.4, and 58.2. And there is some very small pick-up of something at 17.3. (Pipe organs have better defined and musically coherent peaks on an RTA.) To be solidly audible, the organ pedal notes have look pretty strong on an RTA.
I urge everybody to have a look at their music collection to see what really is playing when you think you are hearing great notes from a double bass.
Ben
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I posted the original message about the recordings rather quickly. Thus, I didn't provide much background, Our weather turned around here big-time about two weeks ago. Suddenly the pipes went out of tune. The digitals did not. So the organ is out of tune. It is far worse in the 4 foot voices. So the registration I used on those recordings had no 4 foot voices except for a light 4 foot Flute in the Pedals. We should get a tuning in a couple of weeks. Maybe then I can provide some updated recordings.
One thing I will point out. In the recording, sometimes the 2 2/3 Nazard sounds rather nasal. The odd thing is that I don't hear that nasal quality live. These mikes don't usually color sounds. But they - like me - are getting long in the tooth.
I'd be interested in hearing opinions and constructive criticism. Men often experience some hearing loss - especially in the higher frequencies. I'd be interested in hearing if YOU felt the 2 foot and the 2 2/3 voices were too loud in comparison with the 8 foot voices.
Let me say that the 16 foot pedal stop I used is a quiet one. I do have louder ones from which I can use.
Those REW graphs are interesting.
The recording was made in this fashion. I placed two vintage Sure KSM27 mikes on mike booms about 20 feet away from the pipe/speaker chamber opening. I used a Behringer preamp to provide 48 volts of Phantom Power for the mikes. It was then plugged into a Tascam CD Player/Recorder. I then converted the digital tracks to MP3 format using the highest sampling rate I could find. But I can hear that there is some decline in the quality of the recording after conversion.
One thing I will note is that the air conditioner was running. I ran it to cool the building from about 80 degrees to 74. So it ran right much. That low rumble might be the source of any signals way down low. Too, there was some outside traffic.
As for registration. The Swell manual had an 8 foot Flute, an 8 Flute Celeste and a 2 2/3 Nazard. The Great manual had only an 8 foot Flute and a 2 foot Spitzflute. The Pedals had a 16 foot Liebleck Gedact, an 8 foot Flute and a 4 foot Flute. So there was no organ stop providing anything lower than 32 Hertz.
I've worked pretty hard for the past several months to get the voicing right. That consists of trying to get all the notes of one stop to match the others in Sound Pressure Loudness. I cannot change the loudness of the pipes. So I let them set the standard. The Artisan digital system allows the digital voices AND each note of the voices to be adjusted.
It isn't flawless, but it is much closer to sounding like a real pipe organ. Remember - there are no pipes other than 8 foot and 4 foot. Everything else is digital.
I have experimented trying to program a 32 foot stop in the pedals. The speaker system can do it. But it is not loud. And it causes lots of sympathetic vibration of the pipes in the chamber and in the Sanctuary. So - I've put off trying to use 32 foot stops for the time being.
Anyway, I wanted to share with you by way of saying thanks.
Bach On
One thing I will point out. In the recording, sometimes the 2 2/3 Nazard sounds rather nasal. The odd thing is that I don't hear that nasal quality live. These mikes don't usually color sounds. But they - like me - are getting long in the tooth.
I'd be interested in hearing opinions and constructive criticism. Men often experience some hearing loss - especially in the higher frequencies. I'd be interested in hearing if YOU felt the 2 foot and the 2 2/3 voices were too loud in comparison with the 8 foot voices.
Let me say that the 16 foot pedal stop I used is a quiet one. I do have louder ones from which I can use.
Those REW graphs are interesting.
The recording was made in this fashion. I placed two vintage Sure KSM27 mikes on mike booms about 20 feet away from the pipe/speaker chamber opening. I used a Behringer preamp to provide 48 volts of Phantom Power for the mikes. It was then plugged into a Tascam CD Player/Recorder. I then converted the digital tracks to MP3 format using the highest sampling rate I could find. But I can hear that there is some decline in the quality of the recording after conversion.
One thing I will note is that the air conditioner was running. I ran it to cool the building from about 80 degrees to 74. So it ran right much. That low rumble might be the source of any signals way down low. Too, there was some outside traffic.
As for registration. The Swell manual had an 8 foot Flute, an 8 Flute Celeste and a 2 2/3 Nazard. The Great manual had only an 8 foot Flute and a 2 foot Spitzflute. The Pedals had a 16 foot Liebleck Gedact, an 8 foot Flute and a 4 foot Flute. So there was no organ stop providing anything lower than 32 Hertz.
I've worked pretty hard for the past several months to get the voicing right. That consists of trying to get all the notes of one stop to match the others in Sound Pressure Loudness. I cannot change the loudness of the pipes. So I let them set the standard. The Artisan digital system allows the digital voices AND each note of the voices to be adjusted.
It isn't flawless, but it is much closer to sounding like a real pipe organ. Remember - there are no pipes other than 8 foot and 4 foot. Everything else is digital.
I have experimented trying to program a 32 foot stop in the pedals. The speaker system can do it. But it is not loud. And it causes lots of sympathetic vibration of the pipes in the chamber and in the Sanctuary. So - I've put off trying to use 32 foot stops for the time being.
Anyway, I wanted to share with you by way of saying thanks.
Bach On
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Dunno if my REW RTA was useful, but you can do the very same runs any time and can do it live. Sure tells you immediately and unambiguously what a key/stop is doing when you press it.
And you can benefit the forum here by posting your results.
I believe that many who helped you (or even frowned from the sidelines like me*) would very much like to see notes (or pink noise) RTA that indicated the how the very lowest end of the sound compass is doing. Couldn't be easier to do. Yes, turn off the A/C during runs.
Anybody had a look at their double-bass recordings yet? Post in a new thread? I seem to recall posting some RTA's of organ recordings long ago in a "....my favourite recordings...." thread.
B.
*gosh, the forum isn't the same without "just a guy". What name is he using now?
And you can benefit the forum here by posting your results.
I believe that many who helped you (or even frowned from the sidelines like me*) would very much like to see notes (or pink noise) RTA that indicated the how the very lowest end of the sound compass is doing. Couldn't be easier to do. Yes, turn off the A/C during runs.
Anybody had a look at their double-bass recordings yet? Post in a new thread? I seem to recall posting some RTA's of organ recordings long ago in a "....my favourite recordings...." thread.
B.
*gosh, the forum isn't the same without "just a guy". What name is he using now?
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Mark,
With a login identity like Bach On, perhaps nobody is surprised at the composer of my first recordings.
I love this motet. It is seldom sung in churches because it requires two four part choirs. These works were normally performed for funerals. It was probably common to use a harpsichord and some low string bass as the accompaniment. I love the 8 part counterpoint at the end of the first movement. When our four foot flutes are in tune, I feel you can follow every voice. The last movement also has lots of 8 part counterpoint.
I also love that Fugue. That low pedaltone about half-way in was a place where I did right much putzing around with the pedal voicing. I can raise the volume and that low pedal note can be much louder. But I felt a smaller organ in a smaller church would not be so loud. Again, I did not feel a 16 foot Lieblich Gedackt would be way loud. So it is understated. Opinions and tastes vary.
As for the picture, I was in a stage play of "To Kill a Mockingbird". That was my Judge Taylor costume. SoundCloud grabbed it from my computer. Colonel Sanders wore WHITE suits. The suit in the picture is a light brown seersucker. You boys up North wouldn't know about such things. 🙂
Ron
@ Bach On, again 😉
Good to hear that you've made a Lot of progress, after all the time/money etc you've invested in it 🙂
I'm glad i was able to contribute in some ways.
Good to hear that you've made a Lot of progress, after all the time/money etc you've invested in it 🙂
I'm glad i was able to contribute in some ways.
I'm plenty old enough to remember Colonel Sanders!
I'm just and evil tease!
Your voicing is pretty even. A good old American/British sound from the turn of the last century. Nice and polite.
The Gedackt in the Trio sonata was spot on for a small organ. Wished for a little reed in the Fugue. A nice registration transition from the softer divisions onto something with a little teeth would have been neet to hear. But that from a guy that really likes the German and French big ol organs. But I have to say that my favorite BWV 565 is on a small organ in a small church with a great 8 foot trumpet on the great division and a nice raspy Posaune in the pedal division.
I think that organ has 28 stops if I remember correctly.
I had a little difficulty at times figuring out which stops were digital and which were real. I think that means you have done an awesome job in blending them in.
What I heard quite quickly in the Trio sonata was the distortion in the lowest notes of the the pedal part. They are well presented. Just that I can hear the difference between a real pipe and a reproduced one due to the difference in the harmonics presented. I literally mean the higher frequencies that were added in due to woofer adding in a little distortion.
High frequency. Nothing to harsh sounding to me. My hearing is good o 15 300 hertz. Nuttin after that.
I listened to all of the selections and thoroughly enjoyed them.
He's right here, same name as always.
My interests have shifted a little so avs forum is holding my attention a bit better than diyaudio lately. And I'm sick and tired of the endless bickering here. Also I got an infraction notice (my first) during the concrete horn thread that I really did not deserve. It could be argued that I've deserved a few over the years, but not the one I actually got. I know who was responsible for that incident too, Ben.
There's no way in hell I'm posting further in this thread, especially without some type of objective data to discuss. It's all yours, have fun, Ben.
I certainly see the benefit in obtaining objective data - particularly in modeling and planning speaker systems. And there are people here who really enjoy debating the relative benefits of one design over another. And they use measurements to support their views.
But - for good or for ill - the current sound system at my church is fixed for the time being. We bought it and/or built it. I installed it. And I have been adjusting it to get what my ears (and those of other organists) believe sounds good. Some will hear my recordings and feel our tastes are wrong. And I'm perfectly fine with that.
There are some things about which many (even most) people can agree. There are others where opinions are all over the place. For good or for ill, I have presented recordings of the organ in this thread. Many will continue to believe my approach has been hit-or-miss throughout this project. I concede that that was sometimes the case. But I did try to learn and absorb the advice I received from experienced and learned people on this site. And for all the advice I received from everyone here - I am appreciative.
Bach On
But - for good or for ill - the current sound system at my church is fixed for the time being. We bought it and/or built it. I installed it. And I have been adjusting it to get what my ears (and those of other organists) believe sounds good. Some will hear my recordings and feel our tastes are wrong. And I'm perfectly fine with that.
There are some things about which many (even most) people can agree. There are others where opinions are all over the place. For good or for ill, I have presented recordings of the organ in this thread. Many will continue to believe my approach has been hit-or-miss throughout this project. I concede that that was sometimes the case. But I did try to learn and absorb the advice I received from experienced and learned people on this site. And for all the advice I received from everyone here - I am appreciative.
Bach On
Thanks for the detailed input. You may or may not recall that we had to remove our 16 foot Bourdon pipes to allow sound from our speaker chamber to enter the pipe chamber.
Only the 8 foot and 4 foot flutes in the pedal division includes pipes. The current speaker system for the Pedals consists of the following:
12 cu. ft. cabinet with 2 15 inch Dayton Speakers. I had a port on this cabinet. But I have closed that port for now.
10 cu. ft. triangular ported cabinet with 18 inch Stereo Integrity driver.
An Allen B40 bass speaker. It is a ported cabinet about 10 cu. ft. with a 15 inch driver.
And finally, I connected two of our Allen HC12 speakers in parallel. These have 15 inch woofers. They also have 2 midrange drivers and a tweeter with an Allen crossover system. These play pretty well down to 32 Hertz and provide the overtones and partials.
The amp system is setup as follows. A Crown XLS1500 watt amp powers the larger homemade boxes. Each of the volume controls is set for one of the two large cabinets. So I can adjust the volume independently with the knobs.
A Crown XLS1000 is used to power the Allen Cabinets. The B40 has a volume control. And the two Allen HC12s have the other volume control.
The Artisan digital system was providing lower power levels for output similar to the output of home tape and CD players. That meant that the XLS amps could not produce anything like their rated output signal. So I have inserted small pre-amps to increase the volume. I used high quality XLS patch cables with those pre-amps.
I didn't want to use the pre-amps, but experimenting demonstrated that the resulting sound was - to my ears - better. I've done the same with the Great and Swell amps. That just creates a more complex signal system. And the failure of a $100 pre-amp could put some division out of commission.
I have tried nearly all the Artisan digital samples for the 16 foot pedals. I'm afraid we will always have some of the distortion in the lowest pedals. I don't know if it is the speakers and amps or the samples themselves. But I really don't think it is terrible.
The three recordings I made used three sets of pipes and four digital voices.
Anyhow, thanks for the feedback. Most of the digital samples I received were made obtained from Aeolean Skinner organs. They seem to match pretty well with the Estey pipes we have. I suspect American/British style is pretty accurate. I also like German organs. But I spit on French organs. ;-)
Bach On
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