As is expecting much sub output when it's amplifier is only being driven to a tiny fraction of it's output potential 😉 ...
I take your severe public criticism of me very personally - of course - and feel I need to reply. I didn't mention ANYBODY in my suggestion.
I call to your attention that at no point in this thread of for months past on any thread have I ever replied to "him" even though - for reasons I can not understand - "he" posts a rebuttal to every single post of mine with page after page of wordy posts (that I don't read). Go figure. I have complained to the moderators (and off-list to friends at DIYaudio) repeatedly about this hostile behaviour and their suggestion is that I ignore him. Which is exactly what I do and will continue to do.
If you have a peek at my earlier call for people to help you, there was talk about folks in your region - certainly not from other countries, like Canada.
When somebody honks their horn in traffic, weirdly enough, some sad drivers all around are certain the honk must have been an implicit criticism of THEM. Is that a sign of mental disorder?
Ben
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Valid point made. And I believe you know I'm working on solutions for this situation. I'm not making fun of others for not being willing to drive hundreds of miles to do it for me.
BO
There's 4 people that are very active in this discussion. You, Ben, me and Mark. There are a few other people posting but not many and their posts are few and far between.
When Ben posts Endless posting. and All talk and no ..., there's only a few people he can be talking about.
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I reply to a lot of your posts because I believe a lot of them contain bad information, suggestions and recommendations. I usually post a ton of information in my "wordy" posts and I would love to have an actual technical discussion with you about numerous issues, although I've already posted tons of technical info on these issue in rebuttal to your posts that you apparently haven't read.
And while you don't address me directly you've taken several shots yourself with the "armchair quarterback" and "sim lover" comments.
@ Bach On
Re Post #695
I'm not Art 😀
The 16Hz wave is in the Att @ the bottom of Post # 688. See my IMAGE Only of it in this post. You have to click on it to download it ! Then follow my instructions about renaming it. Also note what i said about Looping it in for eg Audacity, as it's only a short sample.
As just a guy rightly keeps saying, you REALLY do need to have a Dedicated supply to the amps etc. Directly fed from the main power input fuse etc box, with a suitable high current fuse/breaker. Ideally going to ALL the audio equipment, otherwise you could get nasty hum etc due to earth loops. This should be done with thick cable that is @ least 2 x overated in current terms compared to the max you will Ever draw. Forget about rewiring the whole church.
I was hoping that Bach On could do that 😉 But he, or anyone else, would have to rename the file/s before uploading to .txt as i did, plus Ensure the file size/s don't exceed the maximum allowable on here. Otherwise the forum will NOT upload it/them 😉
Re Post #695
I'm not Art 😀
The 16Hz wave is in the Att @ the bottom of Post # 688. See my IMAGE Only of it in this post. You have to click on it to download it ! Then follow my instructions about renaming it. Also note what i said about Looping it in for eg Audacity, as it's only a short sample.
As just a guy rightly keeps saying, you REALLY do need to have a Dedicated supply to the amps etc. Directly fed from the main power input fuse etc box, with a suitable high current fuse/breaker. Ideally going to ALL the audio equipment, otherwise you could get nasty hum etc due to earth loops. This should be done with thick cable that is @ least 2 x overated in current terms compared to the max you will Ever draw. Forget about rewiring the whole church.
I was hoping that Bach On could do that 😉 But he, or anyone else, would have to rename the file/s before uploading to .txt as i did, plus Ensure the file size/s don't exceed the maximum allowable on here. Otherwise the forum will NOT upload it/them 😉
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I found this NU 6000 bench test yesterday by accident. The results are comparable to your findings but notably different in some aspects. This is a really nice thread, well written with a lot of pics inside and outside the amp case.
Behringer inuke NU6000 vs KAM KXD7200 bench tested - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 1
He found the amp performed significantly better at 1 khz compared to 31 hz. The logical extension of this being that it would perform even worse an octave lower at 16 hz.
He tested both a continuous signal and a 33 percent duty cycle signal and I'll just cut and paste the relevant parts of his results (with a little bolding added by me).
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The limits of human hearing is 20HZ to 20KHZ so what advantage is there trying to produce sound outside this range?
I seem to remember reading that Whales use Infrasound to disorientate their prey. Could infrasound cause humans to swear a lot? 😱
Just found this too. LTD02 shows how to do the 16 hz hpf thing with the Inuke software but he's using a shelf filter instead of the parametric eq boost that I showed in my example.
This shelf filter can also boost the entire passband, as he shows, if your signal is low. Depending on how low the signal is and how much you can boost in the Inuke software it could conceivably eliminate the need for the DI box. So two birds with one stone (signal boost and high pass filter).
Unfortunately I don't think we can sim shelfs in Hornresp so finding the appropriate filter to protect your driver would have to be done in other software.
This method would definitely boost the signal but I'm not sure if the amp lights are connected before or after the dsp section, so not sure if the boost would be included in the signal strength lights or if the boost would be downstream of the signal lights. It would be very easy to test and find out (if you had an Inuke).
Another LTD02 Designed Sub Build - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
This shelf filter can also boost the entire passband, as he shows, if your signal is low. Depending on how low the signal is and how much you can boost in the Inuke software it could conceivably eliminate the need for the DI box. So two birds with one stone (signal boost and high pass filter).
Unfortunately I don't think we can sim shelfs in Hornresp so finding the appropriate filter to protect your driver would have to be done in other software.
This method would definitely boost the signal but I'm not sure if the amp lights are connected before or after the dsp section, so not sure if the boost would be included in the signal strength lights or if the boost would be downstream of the signal lights. It would be very easy to test and find out (if you had an Inuke).
Another LTD02 Designed Sub Build - Page 5 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
The lower limit of human hearing is not 20 hz, it's variable based on spl level. And even if you can't hear low frequencies you can feel them. You can't hear an earthquake but you can sure feel it, and it provides an immediate and substantial emotional response.
I mentioned earlier that I wouldn't discuss the point of church organs and specifically their ability to play down to 16 hz. And I won't in this discussion as the OP might not know this and might be very offended by the implications. But if you want to know more click the link, it's from BBC so it's a reputable source, and it's just the tip of the iceburg if you decide to research this on your own. A quick search on "church organ infrasound" and similar keywords will give huge amounts of information. This isn't news, this has been known for centuries and has been used to very good effect by even primitive civilizations. Another interesting and related search keyphrase is "infrasound paranormal". Lots of infrasound info if you search for it.
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Organ music 'instils religious feelings'
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Infrasound (low-frequency sound)[edit]
Main article: Infrasound
Infrasound, sometimes referred to as low-frequency sound, is sound that is lower in frequency than 20 Hz (hertz) or cycles per second, the "normal" limit of human hearing. Hearing becomes gradually less sensitive as frequency decreases, so for humans to perceive infrasound, the sound pressure must be sufficiently high.
20 Hz is considered the normal low-frequency limit of human hearing. When pure sine waves are reproduced under ideal conditions and at very high volume, a human listener will be able to identify tones as low as 12 Hz.[38]
One study has suggested that infrasound may cause feelings of awe or fear in humans. It also was suggested that since it is not consciously perceived, it may make people feel vaguely that odd or supernatural events are taking place.[39]
Perhaps the Church knew about the above, thus the development of those huge pipes?
Main article: Infrasound
Infrasound, sometimes referred to as low-frequency sound, is sound that is lower in frequency than 20 Hz (hertz) or cycles per second, the "normal" limit of human hearing. Hearing becomes gradually less sensitive as frequency decreases, so for humans to perceive infrasound, the sound pressure must be sufficiently high.
20 Hz is considered the normal low-frequency limit of human hearing. When pure sine waves are reproduced under ideal conditions and at very high volume, a human listener will be able to identify tones as low as 12 Hz.[38]
One study has suggested that infrasound may cause feelings of awe or fear in humans. It also was suggested that since it is not consciously perceived, it may make people feel vaguely that odd or supernatural events are taking place.[39]
Perhaps the Church knew about the above, thus the development of those huge pipes?
I'm not discussing this in this thread unless OP invites this line of discussion. If you want to know my thoughts on this matter I posted about it recently here and in the next few posts after this one - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...obaric-6th-order-band-pass-9.html#post4657358
JAG,
I am fine with you posting your comments and research about infrasound. My goal was to try to include it because many organs have stops that go that low. Frankly, I don't use it much.
Thanks for your concern.
BO
I am fine with you posting your comments and research about infrasound. My goal was to try to include it because many organs have stops that go that low. Frankly, I don't use it much.
Thanks for your concern.
BO
The lights on the NU-3000DSP are not "signal strength lights", they are output level meters.
Although some of the early MIDI instruments (the Yamaha DX7 comes to mind) had line level (+4 or more dBM) out, most now are "instrument level", about the same as a passive electric guitar/bass or Fender Rhodes piano (about -30 dBM), compatible with instrument amplifiers that have a sensitive input stage coupled to their power amp stage.
Bach On's level discrepancy is on the order of at least 24 dB (as evidenced by only getting the lowest meter light to illuminate), a direct box at most would gain 6dB, unless the DI also has a gain stage. DI boxes are typically used simply to convert high impedance (10kOhm nominal) unbalanced signal to low impedance (600 ohm) balanced line signal which can travel long distance with little loss. DI's also have a pin 1 lift (disconnect) to prevent ground loops between the audio shield and AC earth ground.
A mixer or pre-amp is required to amplify the instrument level output of the Artisian up to the line level voltage that the Crown or Behringer power amps require for full output.
You may very well be right, especially since you own an Inuke and have experience.
My info comes straight from the manual which clearly states:
SIGNAL and LIMIT LEDs display the signal level for each channel.
I have no doubt that the manual could be wrong.
As far as personal experience, all the amps I've ever owned with signal lights, it didn't matter if you hooked up an 8 ohm speaker, a 4 ohm speaker, a 2 ohm speaker, or no speaker at all, the level of the lights did not change so clearly they were addressing the input signal right after the volume knob, not the output.
Bach On only had the volume knob at 60 percent to get the -24 db light to flash, so he had a bit more gain in the tank.
This quote from the DI box wiki:
I know you know that but it's unclear which Samson model Bach On purchased and how much gain it might provide.
Anyway, in all my years on the forums I've never heard of anyone adding an active DI box and still not having enough signal strength to clip the inputs. And the reason for getting the DI box is almost universally to boost the signal, at least in the forums I visit. 100 percent success, I've never seen a signal strength problem after a DI box was inserted.
We'll see shortly though when OP gets his cables and gets the DI box in the mix.
Anyway, the Inuke shelf boost (Parametric Eq - Filter 1) looks like it can boost the signal across the passband up to 15 db by itself, so I'm not sure how much extra is going to be needed with the DI box, the Inuke boost and the volume knob turned all the way up to 100 percent (instead of 60 percent). The combination of those 3 things can probably boost the signal well over 24 db.
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Possibly, and easy enough to try. I personally would want enough gain to be able to hit the amp limiters with relatively low MIDI velocity settings to allow easy adjustment between notes and different samples while at the keyboard console, and allow for the added gain of multiple notes, and allow the PEQ to be used for selective EQ rather than broadband gain.
IIRC, the log gain on the Inukes is roughly the same as on the unit posted below, -6dB at 50% (noon), 60% would be roughly -3dB. Not much but "fine tuning" above that. I had planned to label the inputs on my amps, but the pots are not very consistent, so rather than cobbling different hash marks on each amp, I run them wide open (0dB).
Increasing the level from .707v (common "home stereo" pre-amp level) to 1.4v (or so) "pro level" only requires 6 dB gain, so a "bump box" DI with 6 dB of gain would do the trick for most AV situations, but going from mic/instrument level to line level needs a lot more gain.
Fortunately, clean gain is cheap and easily available.
Art
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The Samson box I bought is called the "S-convert" It's listed as a -10dBV to +4dBu Convertor. I see no model number anywhere
Samson's website is listed as:
Samson Technologies | Professional Audio Equipment
The patch cables were shipped. Haven't received them yet.
Bach On
Samson's website is listed as:
Samson Technologies | Professional Audio Equipment
The patch cables were shipped. Haven't received them yet.
Bach On
Many good points, weltersys. I'd want a bit of wiggle room in there too.
With an extra 3 db from the volume knob, 15 db from the dsp shelf boost and 6 db from the DI box that's 24 db total, maybe just barely enough with no room for comfort.
You'd still be able to use the other parametric eq bands in this case, just not for boost. You'd only be able to use them to notch or cut.
Another preamp may be required, but that's another component in the chain, another potential for noise, component failure, low frequency roll off, etc.
I'd try to get the most out of what's already there before adding another component, although it may end up being an absolute necessity.
With an extra 3 db from the volume knob, 15 db from the dsp shelf boost and 6 db from the DI box that's 24 db total, maybe just barely enough with no room for comfort.
You'd still be able to use the other parametric eq bands in this case, just not for boost. You'd only be able to use them to notch or cut.
Another preamp may be required, but that's another component in the chain, another potential for noise, component failure, low frequency roll off, etc.
I'd try to get the most out of what's already there before adding another component, although it may end up being an absolute necessity.
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