If you do the simple test I mentioned I guarantee you will know more about the wiring in the building than the chairman of trustees.
The more you can figure out on your own the less expensive it's going to be and the less likely the electrician will be able to rip you off.
If I were in your shoes I'd have the entire church wiring mapped out, every single light and outlet identified in terms of which breaker they go back to. I'd have stuff rerouted when possible to make for a lower load in the amp room (for example plugging the heaters in somewhere else). And if a new circuit was necessary I'd have the wire laid out waiting to be connected and the new outlet roughed in so the only thing the electrician had to do is connect the ends of the wires.
Being proactive on stuff like this can save you a ton of money. The fact that you are talking about hiring an electrician before doing ANY of this stuff first is troubling when your budget is so small and could be much better spent on other things.
The HS24 was always $1000 for those in the know (on avs forum).
Neither of these drivers are that special. A couple of top tier high excursion 18's will do the same job as a single 21.
Mach 5 Audio is releasing a 32 inch driver soon if large cones are what get you excited. It's not going to be cheap. It's very likely going to end up similar to the model in the video below, at least in looks, as they will probably need to use some of the same parts. VC and motor will probably be different but a lot of the other parts will probably be the same as this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZuU9KP_Ado
EDIT - probably should mention there are bad words in that video since this is a church themed discussion. Turn the volume down if you don't like bad words.
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Here's another one. But it's and in Russian and also has bad words that are transcribed so you can't avoid them by turning the volume down. There's a bunch of videos of this 32. This video has a lot more detail and video of the driver itself. It's something to see, it comically large, and something very similar is coming to the North American market very soon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEhr8uBO_gQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEhr8uBO_gQ
Some will recall that we originally had five amps in our rack. The Crown XLS1000s are supplying power to the six Allen HC12 speakers. It is likely that these amps are producing far below their rated output due to the low input signal they are getting. Currently, I have the gain control on each of them set at about 75-80%. The sound is - IMHO - very good. I've had some organist friends listen to it and play. And they seem to agree with my analysis.
I do find myself wondering if it could possibly be improved by adding preamps to the input signal, but I'm not leaning towards doing that - at least not right now. It would probably increase the electrical power consumption for these amps. And that is already appearing to be a problem I'll need to solve PDQ.
I plan to go to the church today to do some research on the electrical supply. If the heaters in the pipe chamber are on the same circuit, I'll have to change this. One temporary fix is simply to turn off the heaters. The weather is warmer, and they aren't needed. But this is only a short-term fix since they would again be needed for next Winter.
I want to find out about that extra surface mounted outlet in the nursery. Running Romex through conduit to the amp closet would be one possible solution. But I have to know what other items are using this circuit.
All the amps we've been using have been turned on and off by a switching device we bought from Peterson. It has four outlets that turn on and off the power when the organ is turned on and off. There are four other outlets that stay on all the time. We paid $350 for that box. I need to find out it's rated capacity (how many watts).
Too, if we need one or more of the amps to get power from another electrical source, the Peterson box would not turn those amps on and off remotely.
I see two potential solutions:
1. Buy another Peterson box.
2. Or use a 120 watt controlled double pole relay. The coils could get their power from the Peterson box. The relay could be used to turn on and off the extra amps running from the additional outlet.
Adding the Peterson box is simpler - and probably a more reliable approach. But a relay with enough contact capacity would probably be a lot less expensive.
But it is abundantly clear to me that more power will be needed when I put either the iNuke 3000DSP OR use the Crown XL1500 with a higher input signal strength provided by the Samson bump box.
The Crown XLS1500 would probably produce sufficient power for the two homemeade speakers with a higher input. But that means it would increase the amount of electrical current it would need. And it was already producing some of the 16 Hz frequencies. Maybe the iNuke 3000DSP is overkill.
Anyway, we need MORE electrical "power for the shields, Mr. Scott".
Bach On
.
I do find myself wondering if it could possibly be improved by adding preamps to the input signal, but I'm not leaning towards doing that - at least not right now. It would probably increase the electrical power consumption for these amps. And that is already appearing to be a problem I'll need to solve PDQ.
I plan to go to the church today to do some research on the electrical supply. If the heaters in the pipe chamber are on the same circuit, I'll have to change this. One temporary fix is simply to turn off the heaters. The weather is warmer, and they aren't needed. But this is only a short-term fix since they would again be needed for next Winter.
I want to find out about that extra surface mounted outlet in the nursery. Running Romex through conduit to the amp closet would be one possible solution. But I have to know what other items are using this circuit.
All the amps we've been using have been turned on and off by a switching device we bought from Peterson. It has four outlets that turn on and off the power when the organ is turned on and off. There are four other outlets that stay on all the time. We paid $350 for that box. I need to find out it's rated capacity (how many watts).
Too, if we need one or more of the amps to get power from another electrical source, the Peterson box would not turn those amps on and off remotely.
I see two potential solutions:
1. Buy another Peterson box.
2. Or use a 120 watt controlled double pole relay. The coils could get their power from the Peterson box. The relay could be used to turn on and off the extra amps running from the additional outlet.
Adding the Peterson box is simpler - and probably a more reliable approach. But a relay with enough contact capacity would probably be a lot less expensive.
But it is abundantly clear to me that more power will be needed when I put either the iNuke 3000DSP OR use the Crown XL1500 with a higher input signal strength provided by the Samson bump box.
The Crown XLS1500 would probably produce sufficient power for the two homemeade speakers with a higher input. But that means it would increase the amount of electrical current it would need. And it was already producing some of the 16 Hz frequencies. Maybe the iNuke 3000DSP is overkill.
Anyway, we need MORE electrical "power for the shields, Mr. Scott".
Bach On
.
It all starts with this.
And from there Magnets.
Lots of magnets.
Seeing as they are worth a small fortune each even at my cost.
But yes this size of driver is indeed manufacturable.
All it takes is money.
I see a third potential solution.
3. Walk over and turn the amps on manually.
You are spending a huge amount of money, some of it on stuff you don't need. You've spent something like $35000 and you still are not done. Only a very small portion of that was spent on the subwoofers and sub amps. This is incredibly disproportionate. The parts that need the most money in this system are getting the least.
Ideally you should have many many more subwoofers and many more much higher power amps. i don't think the Inuke is overkill, I think it's massively underpowered for the job it has to do, which is a very strong 16 hz at the audience position.
Mark,
Pretty good! However, many United Methodists think God can do anything - including changing the laws of physics. But I don't want to count on that for our installation.
BO
Pretty good! However, many United Methodists think God can do anything - including changing the laws of physics. But I don't want to count on that for our installation.
BO
Yes, most of the parts are right off the shelf from China. If they weren't this product wouldn't be available at a reasonable price. I assume Mark is going to make his own voice coils and motor but most of the other parts will be right off the shelf. I think he's going to do both a neo and a ferrite version.
Well the pic I posted is indeed the 32 inch basket.
I keep tabs on stuff like this.
As for off the shelf.
There are few motor parts available that support a decent coil size for a cone this large.
I would use an 8 inch coil.
Access to the high temp wire and adhesive is prohibitive as is the proper formers.
I get my coils wound by Precision Econowind or PoYun. ( Which owns Precision Econowind anyway)
As for off the shelf metal parts.
Not a chance. That is a custom turning if there ever was one. Happily for me I know how to do that.
Magnets. I have a few companies that I deal with and they will make what I ask for. Have a few large NEO hockey pucks going right now in fact for another run of drivers.
I save that one. It was posted by a kind gent a while back.
I also have a flying pig. But I reserve that one for when it is needed. I keep pigs. And I have to date never seen wings on em.
Chickens on the other hand I see wings on every day.
As far as I know Mark machines his own motor parts, magnetizes his own magnets and winds his own coils (not really sure on the coils but I think he does it himself). He's shown pics of the process but I never really paid attention.
I'm pretty sure he has access to high temp wire and adhesives that he uses on his current product line, I don't think the new 32 is going to be thermally rated a lot higher than his current products.
That leaves the soft parts, coil former, spider, cone, surround. Those and the basket are all off the shelf parts I believe, as Mark can't make any of them himself.
JAG,
Yes. I recall that you've made this recommendation very early in the original thread when I first came to this site and began getting input from our project. I recall you felt I was sacrificing lots of valuable cubic feet in our speaker chamber by using the HC12s for the manual sounds. I think you understood that had already bought those speakers for this purpose. You correctly pointed out that the large 15 inch woofers in those 6 boxes were not needed for the higher sounds of the 'manuals. And by yielding so much speaker chamber real estate to them, it was making it nearly impossible to include enough bass cabinets to adequately supply the low pedal sounds. Am I correct?
I have studied those HC12 cabinets. I even considered removing the 15 inch woofers and cutting the wooden cabinet down to a smaller size. That could be done at almost no cost. This would shrink the size of the cabinets to roughly 14"x16"x10". It is even possible that the resulting surplus 15" woofers could be utilized for some bass cabinets. I don't have the specs on those woofers, so I don't have any idea whether of not they would work well in large ported cabinets. I suspect not.
After replacing the surrounds on the woofers and the twin midrange drivers, The church has roughly $60 investment in each of them. I recall you felt that the money should be spent on newer and better speakers. Again, is that correct?
My recollection is that you saw no need for using so many speakers for the upper frequencies. I believe what I heard you say is that we could buy just two modern high quality speakers that would be more than capable of producing all the higher frequencies. We did not discuss cost. But the math is simple - fewer speakers would be needed; fewer amps would be needed; and far less real estate would be required for the speakers. Corrections, are again invited..
Now - please hear me say this - at least some of your predictions were undoubtedly accurate.
But I did not heed them. I chose to do it my way. I did bring the project in within the budget I had. But I might have also been able to do so had I followed your advice.
But all of that is hindsight. I can't change it now. I can cut down those HC12 boxes at no cost other than some carpentry effort on my part. But I will not have the budget for more appropriate high quality bass speakers to put in more large cabinets - especially not as many as you are suggesting are needed.
The church is looking at having to replace the air conditioner. Some of the bids are looking to be between $10 and $12,000. I cannot go back and ask for more money.
So, my mea culpa doesn't change the fact that where I am is with equipment that has already bought. I'm spending my own money to try to rectify things. But I don't have the kind of big bucks that could purchase all that is needed.
Bach On
Endless posting.
Time to measure where you are. Part of that is getting an assistant to play while you listen from the pews for a whole variety of parameters (alas, some of which are not easy to address).
Reverb issue is interesting, settling both amount of reverb and matching pipes and sample-sound speakers. Piece of cake to add reverb to music. - not that the 12 second samples could possibly be absent of reverb. But this is second-order issue. Not for today.
Long ago, I asked if anybody from this forum would have the goodness of heart to visit with you. Zilch. All talk and no.....
Why don't you put a request in your local media for somebody who has an oscilloscope to come and help you free. (Give them a charitable donation receipt.) That will immediately reveal signal peaks along the chain and put to rest a lot of questions about power that are not easily answered any other way. A meter or red LED will not tell you much about music signals but a 'scope will do so immediately and tell you much more too.
Ben
Time to measure where you are. Part of that is getting an assistant to play while you listen from the pews for a whole variety of parameters (alas, some of which are not easy to address).
Reverb issue is interesting, settling both amount of reverb and matching pipes and sample-sound speakers. Piece of cake to add reverb to music. - not that the 12 second samples could possibly be absent of reverb. But this is second-order issue. Not for today.
Long ago, I asked if anybody from this forum would have the goodness of heart to visit with you. Zilch. All talk and no.....
Why don't you put a request in your local media for somebody who has an oscilloscope to come and help you free. (Give them a charitable donation receipt.) That will immediately reveal signal peaks along the chain and put to rest a lot of questions about power that are not easily answered any other way. A meter or red LED will not tell you much about music signals but a 'scope will do so immediately and tell you much more too.
Ben
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Yes.
I don't remember exactly. I think I did suggest that you could put the drivers from the HC12s in smaller cabs but I don't think you can just omit the woofers if you plan to get down to 100 hz with them.
I might have suggested that you could get modern pro speakers that would do the same job in a lot less space.
The third, and probably best recommendation was moving those boxes out of the subwoofer room and placing them at staggered positions in the main room.
I think you are completely missing my point.
What did the 2 Dayton drivers cost? $100 each or so? And the 18? Maybe $200? And the Inuke? Less than $300? We don't usually count the cost of wood or cab accessories, so the grand total for the subwoofers and sub amps looks to be about $700.
That's $700 out of a $35000 budget.
Now you just said you paid $350 for a switch that would automatically turn the amps on when the organ turns on. And you said you are considering buying another one. That's $700, THE SAME AMOUNT AS THE ENTIRE BUDGET FOR THE SUBS AND SUB AMPS. For a switch. A switch that you don't even need when you can manually turn the amps on and off. A switch that costs more than the amp it's turning on.
This seems bizarre to me that so little was budgeted for the sub and sub amps and so much is being spent on stuff like switches.
The reconditioning of the HC12s alone was $720 (if you spent $60 x 12 units) again, more then the entire budget for the subs and sub amps. And that's just the reconditioning, it doesn't include the purchase price for those speakers. And the higher frequency speakers have a bunch of amps of unknown cost. You spent several times more on the higher frequency speakers and amps than on the subs and sub amps. This is backwards.
The point is not that I think you absolutely need to spend $30000 on multiple high excursion sub drivers and huge power amps. The point is that I think the sub budget is rather low and the budget for stuff like switches that you don't even need seems unlimited.
This is your project and your business so you can completely ignore my opinion, but my opinion is that the subs and sub amps should have gotten several times more budget and more space than the higher frequency speakers. That's physics at work demanding the low frequencies need resources. And luxuries like switches that you don't need wouldn't come into play at all until the necessary components were purchased and measured to be doing their job.
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What about you, Ben? You live 3 hours down the road from me, se are almost exactly the same distance to OP's church. Mark lives maybe 8 hours in the other direction, also almost exactly the same distance to OP's church. You want to accuse people of no action when it would require the exact same amount of time and resources to complete the action yourself, which you have no intention at all of doing?
Local help would help a lot. But you don't need a scope. Just a simple recording of the 16 hz note would tell us everything we need to know about the sample. A simple frequency response measurement at the end of the signal chain would tell us everything we need to know about the signal. The LED lights on the amp tell us everything we need to know about the signal level. And some simple frequency response measurements around the church would tell us everything we need to know about spl and frequency response.
No love for de niro?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
JAG,
Asking someone on this board to drive hundreds of miles to my church is silly.
I get your point that he's the person who keeps urging that measurements are needed for that output from the Artisan system. But you also suggested that different measurements be taken at various locations in the Sanctuary.
I'm sorry. But in your zeal to take a swing at him, you've crossed the line IMHO into the just plain ridiculous.
BO
Asking someone on this board to drive hundreds of miles to my church is silly.
I get your point that he's the person who keeps urging that measurements are needed for that output from the Artisan system. But you also suggested that different measurements be taken at various locations in the Sanctuary.
I'm sorry. But in your zeal to take a swing at him, you've crossed the line IMHO into the just plain ridiculous.
BO
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