Mark has proposed your measurement is accurate.
There's no way to tell if it is or not. It's not just REW settings, it's all the settings on the whole laptop, all the Artisan settings and the physical connection between the Artisan and the laptop that need to be correct to get an accurate measurement.
I don't want to be rude but I don't think you are technically proficient enough with all these various things to guarantee your measurement was done properly.
If you want to eliminate all (or at least most) of the variables, plug the Artisan into the laptop and make a recording of the 16 hz note. Then share that recording with us.
Make sure all the Artisan eq (notelevel and any other settings) are flat and that the laptop has no audio processing either, which could include any number of things.
One thing we can be certain of, this low level signal is not going to cause the laptop or REW or anything else to have a meltdown. It's well within the power level and frequency range that the laptop should be able to accept.
Again with the completely unfounded assumptions.
Artisan knows very well that organ equipment manufacturers make and sell subwoofers fully capable of playing back 16 hz so your assumption that they high pass (cut everything) below 24 hz and boost 24 - 44 hz is not only purely speculation but more likely a very bad guess.
BTW, where are these numbers coming from? You've mentioned 24 and 44 hz several times now. You are getting pretty specific considering you are just guessing, and considering that your guesses are probably completely wrong in concept, much less fine detail.
Artisan Digital Classical Ranks
Is that Artisan company the same company that makes OP's Artisan unit?
Is there a good sample there of the 16 hz note?
Is there a way to play it back without quicktime?
Is there a way to record the sample as mp3 or WAV?
Has anyone even bothered to research the Artisan unit OP has?
If we can grab a sample from that page in mp3 or WAV format we can get a lot of questions answered in really quick fashion. I don't really want to install quicktime just to get the samples to play.
Is that Artisan company the same company that makes OP's Artisan unit?
Is there a good sample there of the 16 hz note?
Is there a way to play it back without quicktime?
Is there a way to record the sample as mp3 or WAV?
Has anyone even bothered to research the Artisan unit OP has?
If we can grab a sample from that page in mp3 or WAV format we can get a lot of questions answered in really quick fashion. I don't really want to install quicktime just to get the samples to play.
Yes sir!
And it appears to do what it is intended to do.
Deliver samples of organ pipes when called upon to do so.
Really getting to the nitty gritty on some of these questions is next to impossible.
Mic placement when making the samples is a good example.
But it really does not pertain to the questions at hand.
Power output to the subwoofers.
And tuning point of said subwoofers.
Although for me I would just make up a failsafe type of high pass filter and damn the torpedoes.
It's how I make all the subwoofer applications that I work on.
Driver longevity comes first.
One point that is a bit erroneous by Anthony.
He posted Hearing perception thresholds for sound.
It is true that these are the minimum just perceptible levels that must be generated to hear the tones in the graph.
What is missing is the follow up when you read the studies on this very low frequency perception.
Below a knee point in the ultra low frequencies even 1db louder is very noticeable.
I have posted the entire article a few times on diyaudio.
It's dry reading to be sure. But very enlightening.
I also am quite sure that Anthony was referencing at the audience levels and at the subwoofer box levels when he was stating that 120 db was needed to hear the instrument out in the audience.
Again we have a wonderful thing in ultra low frequency reproduction in a very large acoustical space.
Room gain. Real true to life room gain. The type that only comes when your room is actually larger than a half wavelength of the lowest frequencies.
Anyone who has heard a large organ in a large church knows what I'm talking about.
Not something you soon forget.
JAG,
I own four NU4-6000, each is basically two of the NU-3000 in one chassis.
I was quite surprised by their continuous output capability and electrical efficiency.
The NU4-6000 performed as well on low frequencies as on mid/high frequencies, and is capable of near full power sine wave output with all four channels driven to rated output at two ohms, or two bridged mono pairs driving four ohm loads each. The $350 NU4-6000 appears to be within 3 dB of the $5500 Powersoft K10 rating on sustained (more than 1 second) output.
The NU4-6000 with two bridged mono pairs each driving four ohm loads just below the illumination of the clip/limit light each put out 85.5 volts at 60 Hz (1828 watts), 84.6 volts at 30 Hz (1789 watts), dropping the mains voltage on a 100' 10AWG 120V line from 118.1 volts down to 107.2 volts, drawing 31 amperes.
I'd expect the NU-3000 to do half the above, as much as 15.5 amperes if the organ notes have only 3 dB crest factor, but more likely the samples have closer to 6 dB crest factor, so hitting the clip/limit should draw under 8 amperes.
Using just one bridged mono pair, the amp ran for 40+ seconds before I terminated the test, as the amp was drawing 19.8 amperes, and the "tired" 20 amp mains breaker had popped several times in various tests already. The amp would have put out more power given a full 120 volts, but the test represents "real world" situation, we don't generally plug our amplifiers in to an outlet two feet from the mains transformer.
I also tested my old "heavy iron" bass favorite, a Crest CA9, bridged into a 4 ohm load it dropped the mains to 99.6 volts, drew 37.8 amps but only put out 80 volts (1600 watts). The NU4-6000 put out more power, and drew only 50% of the power from the mains compared to the CA9.
At any rate, once Bach On starts using more than the small fraction of power he tested at, he will definitely need the power amp on a separate circuit from the heaters.
Art
I am perfectly willing to do all you have suggested (above), though it may take me some time to do it all. And I am not offended in the least about your pointing out that there are huge proficiency questions about my audio knowledge. I don't consider pointing it out rude, in the least. It is like sayinng I have grey hair. It's accurate.You know far more than I do about such matters. A recognition of my lack of knowledge is big part of what brought me here. And many have helped me learn a great deal. And I believe I have repeatedly expressed my gratitude for the assistance I've received. That's the away I am - warts and all. I know more about some other things that many here. Nobody knows it all.
You seem to value telling it exactly the way you see it IMHO. I see value in that too. But I believe I value the human element in the situations a bit more than many people do. Call it a flaw in my character, if you will. It is indicative of what I value most. You've been helpful to me on many occasions. So has Mark. So has Ben. So have many others. I value all these people - even more than the advice they offer. And I chose to do what I will (for good or for ill) with all advice I read here. You can probably recall several times when I have not taken advice offered by some of the people here - including you.
As I said, do with my posts and their content what you will. I value your knowledge and your willingness to share it with us. And I will continue to do the same with all posts I read from all others within this (or any other) thread. We all live and act on our personal values. And that IMHO is as it should be.
Warmly,
BO
BO,
Measurements would be interesting, but are unwarranted until you actually start using your amplifier's potential. Since you only were seeing the -24dB indicator light illuminate, it is obvious you need a pre-amp to bring up the low level signal to line level, assuming the amplifier's gain control was wide open (turned fully clockwise).
At four ohms, the NU 3000 is putting out the following peak watts when the meter lights illuminate:
0dB(top red light) 880 watts
-6dB 220 watts
-12dB 55 watts
-24dB 13.75 watts
The amp's default limiter circuit will prevent it from putting out more than 880 watts per side (no matter how much input level), though that much continuous power is enough to fry voice coils, you should set the adjustable limiter to about half the AES power rating of your speakers.
Art
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Art is right that trying to assess the power output, headroom, clipping, and so on are pre-mature, for now. I suspect you have more power than you could ever use: if used wisely and not trying to futily pump loud subsonic bass. The issue of max clean amp output is far more complex than a single number or even a red lamp which illuminates from a circuit none of us can properly reckon.
But getting some idea of your signal (from the Artisan) instead of wildly speculating about it, still is needed.... just to get the most basic sense of what you are trying to output.
Mark - very funny reading your post about sampling. I picture some inept person on a creaky step-ladder holding a mic up to a pipe.
Artisan likely spent some time finding a few good recording spots in a large pipe organ church. Then they processed this bit of reality within an inch of its life in order to produce a file which - however cooked and re-cooked - the good folks who form organ committees would all say, "Gosh, just wonderful".
Don't be naive. Artisan aren't purist about their sampling. It's cooked till is sounds yummy. And that's is the right way (no doubt how you or I would do it).... as compared to heeding the arm-chair theorists at DIYaudio. (Hope they ask their customers to assess the echo time of their building and providing samples cooked for that time.)
Ben
But getting some idea of your signal (from the Artisan) instead of wildly speculating about it, still is needed.... just to get the most basic sense of what you are trying to output.
Mark - very funny reading your post about sampling. I picture some inept person on a creaky step-ladder holding a mic up to a pipe.
Artisan likely spent some time finding a few good recording spots in a large pipe organ church. Then they processed this bit of reality within an inch of its life in order to produce a file which - however cooked and re-cooked - the good folks who form organ committees would all say, "Gosh, just wonderful".
Don't be naive. Artisan aren't purist about their sampling. It's cooked till is sounds yummy. And that's is the right way (no doubt how you or I would do it).... as compared to heeding the arm-chair theorists at DIYaudio. (Hope they ask their customers to assess the echo time of their building and providing samples cooked for that time.)
Ben
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Audacy has been referenced a few times in this thread already. It is very capable of cooking a sample to make it more aurally appealing.
True.
But I suspect the Artisan engineers set up in a typical/good church and did it empirically. I suspect that means they ensured a reduction of the unreproducible stuff below 24 Hz but boosted the partials, 24-44 Hz.*
If Bach On does a good RTA, we will see how much content there is way down. Might be more than I suppose but then Artisan might be marching to a different drummer than I suppose. From that point of knowledge, Bach On can gain-manage and EQ downstream.
Enough whizzing in the dark. What's the signal?
Ben
*Maybe they do give some customers 16 Hz samples. What do I know?
What I actually said was this:
As I've probably mentioned before, it's hard to perceive very low frequency sounds, they have to be really loud. The bottom line on the old Fletcher Munson graphs is the threshold of audibility. At 20 hz it's 74 db and if you extend the line down to 16 hz it's about 80 db.
That is the absolute limit of perception. The absolute lower limit of perception is not what you want, you want the audience to hear and feel this low note with authority. This is going to require a level of 120+ db at the listener position. This 120 db will be ~ equal loudness if the midrange notes are 80 db, which isn't really loud at all.
At this point, with only a few watts going to the subs (-24 db on the amp) you probably are not even near 80 db at 16 hz at the audience position.
Does it need to be 120 db in the audience? Not really, but it would be nice to have that capability.
I wouldn't count on any room gain at all. If the room is large (longest dimension 50 ft) and not well sealed the room gain will start at a very low frequency and it won't amount to much. And if the building construction is drywall on stud with vinyl siding (as opposed to brick) the room might not actually hold any low bass at all, as in zero db room gain.
This spreadsheet is a very crude estimate of room gain but at least it's an educated guess. With 50 ft longest room dimension and 50 percent leakage you are looking at about 1 db of room gain at 16 hz. That's not going to do much of anything, and certainly won't counteract the distance factor (distance between sub and audience causing less spl at the audience than in the sub room).
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
As it stands, with the subs getting something like 14 watts as per weltersys' post, I doubt 16 hz is anywhere near the perception threshold at the audience position.
How many times can you say "I suspect ..." without any kind of evidence or proof?
Even if Artisan dropped the ball and their samples have no low bass that can be fixed with a bit of processing as Mark was hinting.
But any serious organ company would know full well what the point of church organs are. Organs are very large and very expensive and they are not there for decoration. There's a VERY good reason they are there and a VERY good reason so much time, cost and effort goes into producing the 16 hz note.
I'm not going to talk about the reason, as in a thread like this it could be perceived as extremely offensive. But any organ company that is selling products that can't achieve 16 hz is completely dropping the ball. I could understand if they had a product specifically for customers that don't want to even try to produce 16 hz at audible level, but for the serious customers it would be a travesty to not have samples that contained this low frequency information.
Producing 16 hz is not futile, it is absolutely necessary for the pipe organ experience, which goes a LOT further than just sound.
This organ sampler is not a product like a pipe organ recording that is meant for mass consumption by a populace who do not have systems that can recreate the sound. This product is for professionals who are full capable of recreating the sound and NEED the full pipe organ experience. If the Artisan isn't outputting unfiltered low bass samples then OP got royally ripped off.
The fact that you admit that you don't know what a red signal limit light is for says a lot. Don't assume no one else knows what it means. You also thought the 20 hz lower limit on the Behringer DSP functions were a product of manufacturer imagination when the Inuke DSP is actually a pretty advanced product for such an inexpensive unit. You even own a Behringer unit with very similar DSP capability and limitations and you still don't seem to understand how it works or that it is very accurate.
.... so I picked up the phone and called Artisan tech help. Here is what he told me.
First, this is how they sample. They go to big church, find a good spot, and let 'er rip. No processing except some blower filtering if needed.* Clean. Full spectrum. (I suppose there may be a fan blade speed they can clean up because otherwise there is no way to erase white noise sounds from a fan.)
I asked if there are any churches that can play the 32-foot stuff. Yes there are. They use a "House Wrecker" speaker (Hagerstown, Maryland, has one). As big as the pipes it replaces, he joked, and run pneumatically not by coils and magnets, not Rice-Kellogg, but has a very large diaphragm, like 26 inches. (That's what he said. Got to Google it.)
How about 18- or 15-inch drivers for 16 Hz in a church? [He laughed.] No way. Forgedabouddit was his apparent thought.
He emphasized the need for heavy speaker wires, like 10- and 12-gauge, along with the usual power issues.
Ben
*Mea culpa. I apologize for suggesting that lots of processing was necessary. But.... if nobody except House Wreckers is playing 16 Hz, sure would make sense to keep it out of the power amps, gating it at some point upstream??? But I guess Artisan prefer to give their customers a purist tone and leave the rest to their good judgment.
First, this is how they sample. They go to big church, find a good spot, and let 'er rip. No processing except some blower filtering if needed.* Clean. Full spectrum. (I suppose there may be a fan blade speed they can clean up because otherwise there is no way to erase white noise sounds from a fan.)
I asked if there are any churches that can play the 32-foot stuff. Yes there are. They use a "House Wrecker" speaker (Hagerstown, Maryland, has one). As big as the pipes it replaces, he joked, and run pneumatically not by coils and magnets, not Rice-Kellogg, but has a very large diaphragm, like 26 inches. (That's what he said. Got to Google it.)
How about 18- or 15-inch drivers for 16 Hz in a church? [He laughed.] No way. Forgedabouddit was his apparent thought.
He emphasized the need for heavy speaker wires, like 10- and 12-gauge, along with the usual power issues.
Ben
*Mea culpa. I apologize for suggesting that lots of processing was necessary. But.... if nobody except House Wreckers is playing 16 Hz, sure would make sense to keep it out of the power amps, gating it at some point upstream??? But I guess Artisan prefer to give their customers a purist tone and leave the rest to their good judgment.
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Googled House Wrecker and got the link below. Doesn't seem to be the same beast as was described to me. Anybody do better?
DECWARE's House Wrecker Car or Home Audio Subwoofer Cabinet
Ben
DECWARE's House Wrecker Car or Home Audio Subwoofer Cabinet
Ben
Ben.
I have designed complete electronic rank replacement loudspeakers.
For very large spaces. It can be done and with great finesse and fidelity.
I prefer horn loading as the space is there and the dynamics are the points of issue from the listeners perspective.
Amplifier power has limited ability to increase the volume after a certain point. But an efficient loudspeaker system has the ability to keep up with and really shine if engineered correctly.
A properly optimized horn is an almost 7 to 1 efficiency gain compared to the same driver in an optimised sealed or vented enclosure.
And that sir is the secret sauce.
Not telling you the herbs and spices.
I have designed complete electronic rank replacement loudspeakers.
For very large spaces. It can be done and with great finesse and fidelity.
I prefer horn loading as the space is there and the dynamics are the points of issue from the listeners perspective.
Amplifier power has limited ability to increase the volume after a certain point. But an efficient loudspeaker system has the ability to keep up with and really shine if engineered correctly.
A properly optimized horn is an almost 7 to 1 efficiency gain compared to the same driver in an optimised sealed or vented enclosure.
And that sir is the secret sauce.
Not telling you the herbs and spices.
Well, thanks for admitting this.
Almost certainly this person doesn't know about high excursion 18 inch drivers and is referring to 1 or 2 pro woofers not being able to reproduce the signal properly. In that case he would be right.
But consider the fact that drivers and enclosure design have nothing at all to do with his job and that he probably knows nothing at all about pro sound and you could see how as an average person that knows nothing at all about the topic that he could think this is not something ordinary drivers could do.
But seriously Ben, if you have enough high excursion 18 inch drivers in resonant cabs with enough power behind them what do you think the spl limit is? If you have enough drivers, enough resonant cabs and enough power you can reproduce the output of ANY pipe organ that has actual pipes. SPL is just physics and physics says it's possible, and even relatively inexpensive with modern drivers and amplification.
Now, having said all that, I wouldn't exactly trust the Artisan rep implicitly. He probably has no training in how the samples are recorded or processed aside from a quick explanation from his trainer. And probably no idea at all what's possible from multiple modern high excursion drivers in well designed cabs.
His answer concerning the samples is what I expected to hear, and it means I was right all along, but I still don't completely trust him without measurements.
Decware Housewrecker is almost certainly not what he was talking about. it's a mediocre bandpass sub that's supposed to work with a variety of different drivers. Basically it's junk. If you simulate it with the drivers you intend to use you will probably see that it doesn't work that well. If you try several different drivers in the sim you might find one that works ok in one of the listed configurations.
It's much easier to design a good sub in the first place instead of messing around with plans that aren't specific to a certain driver or configuration. There's many designs on this forum that would beat it easily.
There's also at least a few different designs named "Housewrecker". In fact "housewrecker" can be a description too, not necessarily a name.
What he described isn't a speaker anyway, it's a pneumatic air pump, those are your own words, so looking for a typical subwoofer isn't going to find you the right one.
Anyway, As big as the pipes it replaces, he joked, ...
I fail to see any humor here. The 16 hz pipe is not that big. Compare it in volume to the volume of OP's two subwoofer cabs. You might find that subwoofer cabs with moving coil drivers have to be quite a bit bigger than the organ pipe they replace. But they absolutely can replace the actual pipe if you have enough drivers in resonant cabs with enough power behind them.
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The beast described to you probably has something to do with this, rather than conventional speakers:
M. P. Möller (M. P. Möller, Inc.) was a prolific American organ builder (over 11,000 instruments) located in Hagerstown, Maryland from 1875 to 1992.
Early Möller instruments utilized mechanical (tracker) action in the pipe chests, whereas the console is linked to the pipes by mechanical means. Later, tubular-pneumatic action was used for a brief time until the company adopted its own version of electro-pneumatic action (or pitman action).
As far as conventional speakers reproducing 16 Hz at convincing pipe organ sound pressure level, it is simply not a problem using multiple high displacement, high power drivers.
It will be interesting to hear what Bach On's subs can do when getting a level greater than 55 watts...
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You do understand the size of a 32 foot bourdon. And what it is made of?
Google it.
Then look into Aeolian Skinner organs to get an idea of the size of a single 32 C
It is quite a bit of work.
A pair of 18"s have the same cone area as the 26" driver mentioned. Seems to me the guy you talked to might know a lot about organs, but maybe not so much about sound reinforcement.
I'm not sure what the current system looks like, but I'd be willing to bet there's more cone area than a single 26" driver.
Chris
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