Art I'm aware of the FUBAR speaker demo effect, a properly set up stereo pair of syntripps might give me a whole lot different perspective than the single danley cabs I listened to.
Can a pair of syntripps with a pair of keystones properly set-up create that wall of sound with exceptional depth where you feel like you are inside the song, rather than listening to it through a speaker system? I can do it with t9+keystones.
To me it feels a bit counter productive designing speakers intend to sound smaller than they are, if they don't make up for it in the end with a good stereo set up.
Can a pair of syntripps with a pair of keystones properly set-up create that wall of sound with exceptional depth where you feel like you are inside the song, rather than listening to it through a speaker system? I can do it with t9+keystones.
To me it feels a bit counter productive designing speakers intend to sound smaller than they are, if they don't make up for it in the end with a good stereo set up.
Cool, but.
It was hard for me to enjoy that effect when all I wanted to do was crawl into the speaker and try to find the source of the sound.
Osse,
A pair of SynTripP certainly can exhibit exceptional depth, but I find that to "feel like you are inside the song" requires the proper combination of drugs, rather than specific speakers
Art
Beer and good techno is enough 
Like this for example: Gabriel D'Or, Bordoy - Magic Shroom (Original Mix) [Alleanza] - YouTube
have a great weekend everyone!
Like this for example: Gabriel D'Or, Bordoy - Magic Shroom (Original Mix) [Alleanza] - YouTube
have a great weekend everyone!
Thanks for the response. Sounds like that's roughly in line with what I was expecting. I think I'm starting to like the idea of going with the Peter Morris Mid High design with a smaller synergy in the center covering 600hz up. I think the space available is just barely enough to keep pattern control until crossover horizontally.
I've no doubt your B&C 4NDF34 suggestion would work great, but what is your thoughts on perhaps using a pair of Eminence LA6-CBMR instead? The benefits I'm seeing are
1. Sealed back, so no special chamber needed
2. 2 units instead of 4, simplifying design and manufacture
3. More than equal total cone area
4. Less than half the price
5. Not OEM only
and drawbacks being
1. Not neodymium
2. Not nearly as much excursion potential
3. Not as much power handling
I haven't done any sims for the mids yet, but my gut feeling based on what I've read about what kind of drivers make for good synergy performers gives me the impression the LA6 should be a strong candidate.
Anyways, I'm very interested in seeing how the SSM design comes along, as is nearly everyone else I'm sure.
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Hi All ,
Have been following all Syntripp posts for long .
And would love to bring it - into the living room . Hoping someone scales it down a bit to be used with a 8 inch . Similar design principle
And a Lo , May be an open baffle los to match ..
Then it could be actually enjoyed with ..... to "feel like you are inside the song" free of having to drive back home .
Best Regards
Suranjan
Have been following all Syntripp posts for long .
And would love to bring it - into the living room . Hoping someone scales it down a bit to be used with a 8 inch . Similar design principle
And a Lo , May be an open baffle los to match ..
Then it could be actually enjoyed with ..... to "feel like you are inside the song" free of having to drive back home .
Best Regards
Suranjan
.2 MM Xmax means little output, sim them and see if they would do what you want for output.
Naturally it wouldn't be much. My assumption was that the crazy small x-max figure was due to how they specify xmax. Presumably they're using
Xmax = (Voice Coil Length - Magnetic Gap Height) / 2
I'm not very versed on the subject, but afaik depending on the motor design, I think that can yield values that don't accurately characterize the linear travel possible.
Personal opinion - if you want to be "in" the music then you need some of it coming from around you not just from the front. If so, choices would be
* wide not narrow directivity
* side channels fed with delayed (or true multichannel if the recording has it)
* narrow or medium directivity with reflectors or diffusors to catch the wave after it passes you and send it back toward you delayed
I use the third method and get convincing immersive presentation. A narrow pattern aimed at you without a back or side reflection wont be immersive.
* wide not narrow directivity
* side channels fed with delayed (or true multichannel if the recording has it)
* narrow or medium directivity with reflectors or diffusors to catch the wave after it passes you and send it back toward you delayed
I use the third method and get convincing immersive presentation. A narrow pattern aimed at you without a back or side reflection wont be immersive.
@zettairyouiki
I had seen Peters DIY and thought along the same lines as you. This might be for another thread, but I'll post with no intention of hijacking.
I started to think I could build a similar horn but with a synergy in the center taking the place of the BMS coaxial. The horn would have to be somewhat large tho to get into the lower frequencies. I'm no horn expert and don't know Hornsrep that well. The driver lineup is all Eminence (N314T 1.4 compression driver, LA6-CBMR 6-inch closed-back mid and a 10-inch LA10850). I chose the LA10850 for it's strong motor. The EBP on that driver is around 212 which makes it good for horn loading. Not quite a 12 like Peters but I kinda liked where this was going. One bad thing is that all the drivers in the box come to weigh about 51lbs. The good thing is cost. I have not studied some of the other eminence drivers like the high output kappalite's. Those drivers could cut about 15lbs. Here is very rough drawing. This still needs tons of work and measurements! I can hornresp the LA6 driver but it would be better to do the compression driver and LA6 together which i still don't know how to do in hornresp.
I had seen Peters DIY and thought along the same lines as you. This might be for another thread, but I'll post with no intention of hijacking.
I started to think I could build a similar horn but with a synergy in the center taking the place of the BMS coaxial. The horn would have to be somewhat large tho to get into the lower frequencies. I'm no horn expert and don't know Hornsrep that well. The driver lineup is all Eminence (N314T 1.4 compression driver, LA6-CBMR 6-inch closed-back mid and a 10-inch LA10850). I chose the LA10850 for it's strong motor. The EBP on that driver is around 212 which makes it good for horn loading. Not quite a 12 like Peters but I kinda liked where this was going. One bad thing is that all the drivers in the box come to weigh about 51lbs. The good thing is cost. I have not studied some of the other eminence drivers like the high output kappalite's. Those drivers could cut about 15lbs. Here is very rough drawing. This still needs tons of work and measurements! I can hornresp the LA6 driver but it would be better to do the compression driver and LA6 together which i still don't know how to do in hornresp.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Yep.
I work in software and one of the ingenious things about Danley's engineering is that he turns "defects" into features. For instance, it would be ideal if there was a single full range driver at the apex of the horn. But this is physically impossible; there isn't a driver in the world that can reproduce a full range signal on a front loaded horn. So Danley has taken something that might be perceived as a defect (the fact that the drivers are in seven different locations) and turned it into a feature (the fact that the midranges load the horn better when they're offset from the apex.)
"Patrick",
Drivers don't "load the horn better when they're offset from the apex", but the offset is useful from a time/phase alignment and fitting multiple drivers on a single horn, which both simplifies construction and creates a virtual single point source.
Art
According to Danley, having the mid drivers further from the apex puts them where the flare rate is lower (more appropriate to frequency) and loads better. Can't say I follow horn theory (particularly with offset) well enough to verify or dispute that.
The problem with phase in a speaker, even in many Synergy horns, is that the further physical distance of the tweeter is still not enough to entirely make up for the delay that happens to the midrange or bass from their lowpass crossover filters (and in a Synergy, the rolloff from the front volume of compression chambers). Also, phase isn't the same as delay. A filter applies a group delay curve that varies with frequency, it doesn't just store a waveform for a period of time. If you look at the phase curves on the Danley site, there are actually few models that really approach minimum or linear phase. (To reproduce waveforms so they are visually recognizeable, the phase has to be able to be made flat by adding/subtracting delay, and then must be near a multiple of 360 degrees -- getting flat at -45 or -90 degrees won't do it). I had to put in messy all-pass filters and inverted drivers to do it with the Cosyne, couldn't get it to fly with the SmallSyns (didn't try too hard, though, its so much easier to do with FIR and I'm still not sure that getting linear phase really matters all that much). Doing it with digital filters is another thing (arbitrary control of relative delays comes free with the concept - a stereo FIR filter board can nowadays cost you less than the inductors and capacitors in a set of linear phase passive crossovers).
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-4-x-out-hd
If the goal is just to get smooth response through the crossover points, you can play with number of poles and inversion for that (though the 90 degree figure is for the stopbands, not the passbands -- still, 45 degrees per in passbands is realistic). The usual other requirement for phase tracking through the crossover point doesn't really apply for a Synergy horn, because the drivers are all within a quarter wave distance and coaxially arranged. Just get the on-axis response flat and the off-axis should follow.
The problem with phase in a speaker, even in many Synergy horns, is that the further physical distance of the tweeter is still not enough to entirely make up for the delay that happens to the midrange or bass from their lowpass crossover filters (and in a Synergy, the rolloff from the front volume of compression chambers). Also, phase isn't the same as delay. A filter applies a group delay curve that varies with frequency, it doesn't just store a waveform for a period of time. If you look at the phase curves on the Danley site, there are actually few models that really approach minimum or linear phase. (To reproduce waveforms so they are visually recognizeable, the phase has to be able to be made flat by adding/subtracting delay, and then must be near a multiple of 360 degrees -- getting flat at -45 or -90 degrees won't do it). I had to put in messy all-pass filters and inverted drivers to do it with the Cosyne, couldn't get it to fly with the SmallSyns (didn't try too hard, though, its so much easier to do with FIR and I'm still not sure that getting linear phase really matters all that much). Doing it with digital filters is another thing (arbitrary control of relative delays comes free with the concept - a stereo FIR filter board can nowadays cost you less than the inductors and capacitors in a set of linear phase passive crossovers).
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-4-x-out-hd
If the goal is just to get smooth response through the crossover points, you can play with number of poles and inversion for that (though the 90 degree figure is for the stopbands, not the passbands -- still, 45 degrees per in passbands is realistic). The usual other requirement for phase tracking through the crossover point doesn't really apply for a Synergy horn, because the drivers are all within a quarter wave distance and coaxially arranged. Just get the on-axis response flat and the off-axis should follow.
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Wow, that's amazing. It sounds like you've actually put more thought into it than I have.
I definitely want to stick with 12" drivers. The 10s you've specified look great parameter-wise, but my only concern is that the combined Vd is only 1/3 of that of a pair of 12NDL76, which will greatly limit output at the bottom end.
If you decided to start a new thread to discuss the idea further, I would certainly participate.
That wasn't the impression that I got from the "midranges for synergies" thread. I'll echo Bill in that I am not particularly knowledgeable about theory, but I thought the idea was that a horn like an exponential horn has a constant flare rate frequency, but conical horns have a flare rate frequency that changes down the length of the horn, and having the mids tapped in where the flare rate frequency is appropriate provides the best loading.
I remember there being discussion that this is part of what makes synergies challenging because if you put the mids too far down the horn, you will get reflections from the waves bouncing of the CD end of the horn inside your passband. But if you put the mids too close to the throat, you may not have the mids at the place where the flare rate is low enough for optimal loading.
Just going off what I remember.
My understanding of synergy is
Maximum spl ( not home levels)
Running a tweeter at high xover point where horn loading is maximized with minimal distortation crossover point less than 1/4 wave length
Crossing over to midrange high cross over again at the point in the horn of maximum loading that point been less than a 1/4 wavelength
And again to mid/bass as above
The horn design dictates where any cross over can be made and easily calculated.
Now consider this
Same horn design using a small full range (wide range driver) horn size dictates how low it can go
The horn will load but the spl required at home will minimises distortion.
Crank it up to silly spl then faults will unfold.
Originally Posted by weltersys
Drivers don't "load the horn better when they're offset from the apex", but the offset is useful from a time/phase alignment and fitting multiple drivers on a single horn, which both simplifies construction and creates a virtual single point source.
It is always of interest to read what impressions are taken and given, and what the actual proven facts are .
You probably missed the screenshot of the SynTripP combined response, no filters whatsoever, the 10" drivers placed as close as possible to the HF compression driver, with near flat phase over the entire pass-band, so I'll post it again:
Art
Drivers don't "load the horn better when they're offset from the apex", but the offset is useful from a time/phase alignment and fitting multiple drivers on a single horn, which both simplifies construction and creates a virtual single point source.
Zettairyouiki.
It is always of interest to read what impressions are taken and given, and what the actual proven facts are
.You probably missed the screenshot of the SynTripP combined response, no filters whatsoever, the 10" drivers placed as close as possible to the HF compression driver, with near flat phase over the entire pass-band, so I'll post it again:
Art
