Hi TNT,
I'll be happy to give drawings and even processing files,
But i doubt anyone will care.
The speaker is 220lbs, and uses 5 channels of FIR processed amplification.
So I kinda feel wrong for even posting about it, due to how unprobable it is within everyday reachability.
It's just ...damn.... needs to be heard.
I would not take any pair of speakers I've ever heard, over the single syn11......
A big part no doubt, is the multi-channel processing/amplification.
If you still want drawings, will oblige.
I'll be happy to give drawings and even processing files,
But i doubt anyone will care.
The speaker is 220lbs, and uses 5 channels of FIR processed amplification.
So I kinda feel wrong for even posting about it, due to how unprobable it is within everyday reachability.
It's just ...damn.... needs to be heard.
I would not take any pair of speakers I've ever heard, over the single syn11......
A big part no doubt, is the multi-channel processing/amplification.
If you still want drawings, will oblige.
Hi Mark, I would also be interested in a sketch showing basic dimensions, port placements and dimensions and ideally, raw responses, if you have any (will look back through the thread of there are some). It would be great if I could compare the results of my humble efforts with your results.
Raw measurements are here https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/syn-11-a-one-horn-5-way.393087/post-7196713 - so that is ticked off
Some info on port placements here: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/syn-11-a-one-horn-5-way.393087/post-7198253
Not sure if that is edge to edge and I think it is measured along the horn wall, not along the center line.
Not sure if that is edge to edge and I think it is measured along the horn wall, not along the center line.
Hi Mark
Congrats with the sound! Nice to hear about some progress.
I am not sure what "low powered test bed platform" means? Too little amplification power? Could you please explain.
Do you still need a double 18 PPSL sub underneith the SYN11?
So now you have to rebuild your SYN10's like the SYN11?
Steffen
Congrats with the sound! Nice to hear about some progress.
I am not sure what "low powered test bed platform" means? Too little amplification power? Could you please explain.
Do you still need a double 18 PPSL sub underneith the SYN11?
So now you have to rebuild your SYN10's like the SYN11
?Steffen
Hi guys, thanks for the kind words and interest,
Ok, drawing and port details...
here's the SynCalc sheet for the starting 75x60 horn shown in the thread opening post.
I only built the primary part of the horn, no secondary flares.
So in the blue Panel dimensions box, ignore the 2 secondary flare pieces.
Also note dimension C= 32.76" = the horn's mouth width, and G = 24.91" = mouth height.
It's backwards from the pieces picts because I input the horn as a 60x75.
I have to input H&V backwards because of the way I use the sides to form the horn without needing a box. And to allow sealing low drivers into the top and bottom.
The 4 small mid ports have centers 3.5" from CD flange, and are 7/8" diameter.
The 4 larger round low ports have centers 9.5" from CD, and are 2.5" diameter.
The long sub ports have centers 15" from CD, and are 10" long by 2.25" high.
All port distances are along the horn wall.
Hopefully, the picts at the beginning of the thread show that after the horn was built, the rest of the speaker is just a box built around the horn.
Box is 46"W x 27"H x 26" deep.
Only two things keep it from being nothing but a box with an open front.
First are the 6" wide flanges on the front, needed to fill in between the horn mouth and the box sides.
The 6" flanges have 4" bass reflex holes in them that I no longer use. 18"s are sealed now. I'll probably fill the 4" holes and repaint whenever i take the box apart again.
Second is I found it was essential to seal off the 18" cavities from each other. I used 2" thick rigid foam board because i could wedge it in tightly, and keep from having to make some kind of wood dividers. There were really nasty internal waves without sealing the two sides off from each other.
All the drivers are the same as previously posted other than the 18"s, which are now Dayton Apollo 18N. That let me put my bms 18"s back into their sub box.
The Daytons seem like a good sub drivers. I think it might like them a little better than the Faital 18FH500's i have.
The issue I mentioned about powering the 18"s, and finally realizing i was hearing a difference between low signal and cranking signal, came from trying to use a relatively lower powered amp in bridge mode inside the q-sys network.
The amp, a CX254, supposedly makes 900W @ 4ohms in bridge mode, which i would think would be fine for indoor use. (18's are 8 ohm in parallel)
However, luckily a few weeks ago, one of my sons was visiting and i was showing him there is slider for each driver section. I boosted the 18"s about 6dB when already playing pretty loudly. No change in sound.... HUH? I opened up the amp's monitor panel in q-sys and saw any transients were taking available headroom to zero.
I don't know yet if the amp is truly running out of headroom, or if q-sys is setup wrong for the amp. The amp is an older design that's called a data-port amp, and there are conflicting QSC instructions on how to set its DIP switches (which control bridging etc) vs its q-sys settings. Gotta get in touch with tech support.
Anyway, when I swapped to a regular amp with a couple of thousand watts into 4 ohms...wow, what a change.
Embarrassing really....I knew something didn't make sense, needing the auxiliary sub as much as i did to support syn11's 18"s....but lazily just thought i was trying to use 18"s where they didn't have enough box volume.
(That nagging sense that something wasn't right despite the great sound, has had a lot to do with why I haven't posted more about syn11.)
I currently have the Daytons high-passed at 40Hz, and often don't need the extra sub.
But when there's 30Hz music, or outdoors, I still need one of my bms subs.
Heck, outdoors the dang speaker is so powerful it can keep up with a couple of extra double 18"s .
here' the 10 deg tuning in place right now. Ungated indoors, 2-3ft from mouth.
The 75 deg H pattern is too bright on about every song, so I embedded some house curve tilt into each of the drivers sections.
Forgot to save the 18"s section, but it's easy to see it in the entire speakers blue trace,(other than missing its low-pass at 100Hz.)
Xovers btw, are all lin phase 96dB/oct, at 100, 375, 750, and 3000Hz.
Hope this info helps....lemme know the holes i need to fill in...
Ok, drawing and port details...
here's the SynCalc sheet for the starting 75x60 horn shown in the thread opening post.
I only built the primary part of the horn, no secondary flares.
So in the blue Panel dimensions box, ignore the 2 secondary flare pieces.
Also note dimension C= 32.76" = the horn's mouth width, and G = 24.91" = mouth height.
It's backwards from the pieces picts because I input the horn as a 60x75.
I have to input H&V backwards because of the way I use the sides to form the horn without needing a box. And to allow sealing low drivers into the top and bottom.
The 4 small mid ports have centers 3.5" from CD flange, and are 7/8" diameter.
The 4 larger round low ports have centers 9.5" from CD, and are 2.5" diameter.
The long sub ports have centers 15" from CD, and are 10" long by 2.25" high.
All port distances are along the horn wall.
Hopefully, the picts at the beginning of the thread show that after the horn was built, the rest of the speaker is just a box built around the horn.
Box is 46"W x 27"H x 26" deep.
Only two things keep it from being nothing but a box with an open front.
First are the 6" wide flanges on the front, needed to fill in between the horn mouth and the box sides.
The 6" flanges have 4" bass reflex holes in them that I no longer use. 18"s are sealed now. I'll probably fill the 4" holes and repaint whenever i take the box apart again.
Second is I found it was essential to seal off the 18" cavities from each other. I used 2" thick rigid foam board because i could wedge it in tightly, and keep from having to make some kind of wood dividers. There were really nasty internal waves without sealing the two sides off from each other.
All the drivers are the same as previously posted other than the 18"s, which are now Dayton Apollo 18N. That let me put my bms 18"s back into their sub box.
The Daytons seem like a good sub drivers. I think it might like them a little better than the Faital 18FH500's i have.
The issue I mentioned about powering the 18"s, and finally realizing i was hearing a difference between low signal and cranking signal, came from trying to use a relatively lower powered amp in bridge mode inside the q-sys network.
The amp, a CX254, supposedly makes 900W @ 4ohms in bridge mode, which i would think would be fine for indoor use. (18's are 8 ohm in parallel)
However, luckily a few weeks ago, one of my sons was visiting and i was showing him there is slider for each driver section. I boosted the 18"s about 6dB when already playing pretty loudly. No change in sound.... HUH? I opened up the amp's monitor panel in q-sys and saw any transients were taking available headroom to zero.
I don't know yet if the amp is truly running out of headroom, or if q-sys is setup wrong for the amp. The amp is an older design that's called a data-port amp, and there are conflicting QSC instructions on how to set its DIP switches (which control bridging etc) vs its q-sys settings. Gotta get in touch with tech support.
Anyway, when I swapped to a regular amp with a couple of thousand watts into 4 ohms...wow, what a change.
Embarrassing really....I knew something didn't make sense, needing the auxiliary sub as much as i did to support syn11's 18"s....but lazily just thought i was trying to use 18"s where they didn't have enough box volume.
(That nagging sense that something wasn't right despite the great sound, has had a lot to do with why I haven't posted more about syn11.)
I currently have the Daytons high-passed at 40Hz, and often don't need the extra sub.
But when there's 30Hz music, or outdoors, I still need one of my bms subs.
Heck, outdoors the dang speaker is so powerful it can keep up with a couple of extra double 18"s .
here' the 10 deg tuning in place right now. Ungated indoors, 2-3ft from mouth.
The 75 deg H pattern is too bright on about every song, so I embedded some house curve tilt into each of the drivers sections.
Forgot to save the 18"s section, but it's easy to see it in the entire speakers blue trace,(other than missing its low-pass at 100Hz.)
Xovers btw, are all lin phase 96dB/oct, at 100, 375, 750, and 3000Hz.
Hope this info helps....lemme know the holes i need to fill in...
Great info.
There's no substitute for cubic inches and big damping factor amps on bass drivers like that!
Need to be able to turn that cone around on a dime..
I don't expect I'll ever make one or two of these 🙂, but I guess a set up that could reach down to 50, 60 or 70Hz wouldn't need to be that big? Have the tapped horn pair to take over deep duty.. hmm,
There's no substitute for cubic inches and big damping factor amps on bass drivers like that!
Need to be able to turn that cone around on a dime..
I don't expect I'll ever make one or two of these 🙂, but I guess a set up that could reach down to 50, 60 or 70Hz wouldn't need to be that big? Have the tapped horn pair to take over deep duty.. hmm,
This is the first syn/unity I've built that was designed to go below 100Hz. mainly because I think all speakers need a sub (s) anyway.
I guess with a sub, the only real reason to make them big is for how low in frequency do we want pattern control to go down to, huh?
The tactile feel is really awesome. Since sub and upper bass drivers are in such close proximity, both bass notes with steadier-type hair tingling body vibrations, and gut punch from kick drums etc ....all seem to time together.
I'm pretty convinced our body feels low frequency timing/phase.
Hi @mark100. I’ve been following along with your builds, and I’m keen on building some syn’s this fall when I return home to VA after my summer travels. I plan on gathering as much info as I can for the next couple of months, designing and modeling, before building in a couple months.
A couple of high level questions:
1. I understand that the using 4” mid woofers sounds better to you than relying on the coax compression driver to cover the mid frequencies. I’ve read a bunch of your posts and your measurements and listening impressions are compelling. Your are skilled with both building, eq, FIR, etc and generally know what you’re talking about.
On the other hand, we have @SpeakerScott, who is also an experienced speaker & syn designer go the opposite way. He had a popular 3 way syn here with mids, but recently moved to using the dcx464 coaxial and has a good write up on it. He calls it the best sounding speaker he‘s ever designed. I also trust the expertise of Scott Hinson, and I believe both of you.
Would you mind summarizing why you think the build with midwoofers sounds better? And would you care to speculate why both of you might have opposite impressions (I would think because of design differences on your respective versions, but what those differences might be is the question).
I have a couple of theories on why one could sound better than the other, arguing both ways. But I’d love to hear your thoughts first.
2. Adding the 18” bass drivers to make a powerful, full range syn sounds amazing. I believe you when you say it sounds better, and I’d love to hear it myself. On the other hand, even a large, perfectly implemented synergy will have SBIR dips (depending on placement), and room mode issues (depending on room dimensions) than are not solvable by even a large synergy horn such as yours. For this reason, I tend to like speakers than can easily cross over at 80hz or so, and have multiple subwoofers take over from there. I can then place them to eliminate sbir, and jointly optimize the array to give even bass over the entire listening area covering multiple seats. (For example, I want a pair of syns in my living room. These will be placed a few feet in from the wall, resulting on an sbir dip at ~90hz. The subwoofers will be against the wall/corner so will be able to cover that.)
So I’m wondering how you think about handling those issues with full range syns. I’ve personally never heard good, accurate bass with any speaker (in a small room less than concert hall size), until I addressed the room modes below schroeder with mutiple optimized subwoofers.
Thanks!
A couple of high level questions:
1. I understand that the using 4” mid woofers sounds better to you than relying on the coax compression driver to cover the mid frequencies. I’ve read a bunch of your posts and your measurements and listening impressions are compelling. Your are skilled with both building, eq, FIR, etc and generally know what you’re talking about.
On the other hand, we have @SpeakerScott, who is also an experienced speaker & syn designer go the opposite way. He had a popular 3 way syn here with mids, but recently moved to using the dcx464 coaxial and has a good write up on it. He calls it the best sounding speaker he‘s ever designed. I also trust the expertise of Scott Hinson, and I believe both of you.
Would you mind summarizing why you think the build with midwoofers sounds better? And would you care to speculate why both of you might have opposite impressions (I would think because of design differences on your respective versions, but what those differences might be is the question).
I have a couple of theories on why one could sound better than the other, arguing both ways. But I’d love to hear your thoughts first.
2. Adding the 18” bass drivers to make a powerful, full range syn sounds amazing. I believe you when you say it sounds better, and I’d love to hear it myself. On the other hand, even a large, perfectly implemented synergy will have SBIR dips (depending on placement), and room mode issues (depending on room dimensions) than are not solvable by even a large synergy horn such as yours. For this reason, I tend to like speakers than can easily cross over at 80hz or so, and have multiple subwoofers take over from there. I can then place them to eliminate sbir, and jointly optimize the array to give even bass over the entire listening area covering multiple seats. (For example, I want a pair of syns in my living room. These will be placed a few feet in from the wall, resulting on an sbir dip at ~90hz. The subwoofers will be against the wall/corner so will be able to cover that.)
So I’m wondering how you think about handling those issues with full range syns. I’ve personally never heard good, accurate bass with any speaker (in a small room less than concert hall size), until I addressed the room modes below schroeder with mutiple optimized subwoofers.
Thanks!
@mark100
Yeah, as I keep 'preaching' "the lower the frequency, the wider its bandwidth (BW)", ergo the more information in our acute hearing BW to discern it plus the brain will somehow fill in lows and/or highs to some extent what we don't hear well enough, though presumably what we can only feel for whatever reason.
Of course there's also Cerwin-Vega's "Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean" requirement to truly get the Memorex "Is it live or is it Memorex" level of performance.
For sure I can't hear all of these two pipe organ's output, but can sure feel it at least the rest of the day!
https://www.prumc.org/worship/music/organs/
https://www.agoatlanta.org/organ/first-presbyterian-church-of-atlanta/
Yeah, as I keep 'preaching' "the lower the frequency, the wider its bandwidth (BW)", ergo the more information in our acute hearing BW to discern it plus the brain will somehow fill in lows and/or highs to some extent what we don't hear well enough, though presumably what we can only feel for whatever reason.
Of course there's also Cerwin-Vega's "Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean" requirement to truly get the Memorex "Is it live or is it Memorex" level of performance.
For sure I can't hear all of these two pipe organ's output, but can sure feel it at least the rest of the day!
https://www.prumc.org/worship/music/organs/
https://www.agoatlanta.org/organ/first-presbyterian-church-of-atlanta/
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Hi Mark
So now you are back at 10 deg tuning. Is it just plain easier/faster? Or are you still using the sheet metal method and two step tuning?
By the way, I did finish my first "testhorn" with removable driver-boards (upper and lover part of the initial horn-flare). Far too complicated! But I did learn this and that from making sawdust. Have som ideas for a more simple way to do things!?
Steffen
So now you are back at 10 deg tuning. Is it just plain easier/faster? Or are you still using the sheet metal method and two step tuning?
By the way, I did finish my first "testhorn" with removable driver-boards (upper and lover part of the initial horn-flare). Far too complicated! But I did learn this and that from making sawdust. Have som ideas for a more simple way to do things!?
Steffen
Hi Yourmando,
I can only try to speak from my own experiences.
I built a half dozen versions going straight from a CD to a larger low-mid. Tried 12", 10" and 8" mid lows, and various port placement.
All of them sounded absolutely great !!! You can read my past trails i see i thought so.
Adding small mids in between the CD and low-mids quite simply increased clarity, particularly with helping me hear/understand lyrics.
Maybe the phenom is particular to just my ears...how can i tell?
I'd love if Scott Hinson, whom I too respect, has the opportunity to try adding small mids...be great to get his take.
My simple theory is some form of modulation distortion...that goes down when a driver doesn't have to span so many octaves.
Pure speculation though....
Yeah, that makes sense to me. If all we are asking subs to do is play below 80Hz, I think life is good however we go about it.
I should also say, i really don't like the idea of optimizing to a sweet spot or even a defined seated listening area ,too much anymore.
A large dance area, hell yeah, that's what I call optimization
!!!haha...personally i say screw multiple subs.....they give smooth and even response for sure, but they get blurry sounding without tactile definition .
I like to get one or two really good ones done right !!! (and still best to hear them outdoors, to know what it means to be right indoors )
Hi Steffen, that was a quick indoor measurement set with the new Dayton 18"s...haven't made any outdoors with it yet. Just wanted to show something.
I know this is gonna sound like heresy...but the more measurements and processing files I try....well, I think the whole on and off axis current CEA2034 type perfectionist trend...is just that......and is not as important as I've been thinking.
I think 10-15 degrees just splits the differences between on-ax and off-ax variations, on horns like these.
Anyway, the best way I've found to keep a syn horn an active prototype is to assemble it using nothing but drywall screws.
With a decent tracksaw, and close attention to angles and dimensions, I've found after a bit of practice, they can go together tightly with just the screws.
And then be undone to lay flat to change port sizes/locations. Putting round port plugs back in is pretty easy, even when needing to re-route thru the plugs for different ports, etc.
Hi GM, I'd love to hear those organs.@mark100
Yeah, as I keep 'preaching' "the lower the frequency, the wider its bandwidth (BW)", ergo the more information in our acute hearing BW to discern it plus the brain will somehow fill in lows and/or highs to some extent what we don't hear well enough, though presumably what we can only feel for whatever reason.
Of course there's also Cerwin-Vega's "Loud is Beautiful if it's Clean" requirement to truly get the Memorex "Is it live or is it Memorex" level of performance.
For sure I can't hear all of these two pipe organ's output, but can sure feel it at least the rest of the day!
https://www.prumc.org/worship/music/organs/
https://www.agoatlanta.org/organ/first-presbyterian-church-of-atlanta/
Used to live in Druid Hills/ N Decatur...many years ago it seems