Thanks a bunch Jack,
Yes, fully agree the 4NDF34's make a 1" CD easily viable. And also agree they could span all the way down to 18"s if desired. ncbluetj's BASH (linked in my thread opener) is using them to span between CD and 15's.
A big goal i have for this 5-way is to continue explore various strategies for how many ways to employ, and crossed where..
Hi Ron, yep, much to try in terms of sub involvement.
Did you notice the stand? The syn11 is at standing ear height, just like the L & R syn10's sitting on PPSL subs.
This syn11 is my center speaker in a LCR setup, simply replacing the syn10 that was in the center sitting on two 18" reflex.
here's a pict of the setup...please don't mind the mess...my GF doesn't 🙂
I've listen to syn11 alone, compared to L & R each alone, and the bass is definitely cleaner to either the L or R stack. It takes more boost to compensate for the lack of floor gain, but once than is leveled out, it's cleaner. Problem is, modes, nulls, and floor bounce of course make it song specific on how it fills in or cancels notes.
I've also listened to this syn11 by itself, and with the L & R PPSL subs blended in. Definitely makes more songs sound filled in.
Personally, I view multi-sub as something of an in-room necessary evil. There is no doubt in my mind it muddies up sound, but there isn't really a solution around it, other than spending a fortune on designing a room from the ground up.
Or go out side and hear just how good bass can sound, and how much clarity is gained 😉
Hi Steffen, my bad....I said a one-axis tuning in the opening posts. It was at about 10 deg off. ONE is too easily mistaken for ON, huh?
But hell no on secondary flares haha...i hope i'm done with them forever.
You know, it does look massive....I think in part due to the white, and in part due to a big box around it. (and it weighs almost 200 lbs.....the blue syn 10's weigh only 49 lbs...a lot of size and bulk just to add the 18"s.
I'm kinda convinced one of the main reasons big synergies (like Danley's) have secondary flares is to help increase box volume needed for the bass/reflex ports. (And maybe that's more of a reason than pattern control.)
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Hi Chris, yep i hope most realize the 5-way build is mainly for experimentation, particularly trying to figure out what if any role modulation distortion plays in clarity.
I found a 60x60 a bit too narrow too. I imagine the SH-50 sounds quite narrow.
My syn10's (the blue ones) are all 90x60, and work very well in a matrixed LCR setup. I can already tell this new 75 deg white syn11 will need some matrix adjustments, as sound is pulled a little too much to center using the matrix settings of the three 90 degree boxes.
Very nice setup I'm sure. Congrats. Didn't know it was quite so extensive.
Fully agree on how lower frequency directivity control helps.
For prosound, PA apps, I'm not. 😉 For typical in room HIFI/HT apps I never noticed it with my conical horns nor even knew about it, so at first glance of the original Unity thought it was a variation of the CD horns already used in prosound.
You might want to take a good look at the BASH thread linked in first post, for more ideas too.
I have how much it would change things to let the woofer cone hang out of the horn. But i do know that acoustic low-pass feature of it playing through a port is real indeed.
Yea, I have studied the BASH-thread. I need triangular boxes to fit in a corner, but 4 woofers in one SYN/MEH I like.
Are you saying there is a difference in sound whether the port is a round hole or a segment of a circle (provided equal port-area)? 🤔
My idea in the drawing i attached was actually inspired by the woofer-ports seen in the BASH. So I think it still would have that acoustic low-pass feature. But you will maybe have to cross a bit lower with respect to the 1/4wl-rule?
The idea being a subwoofer-design that wraps around your existing SYN10´s, without changing the SYN10´s in any way. The SYN10´s mounted/fitted in the "Synergy-sub". Removable, like two in one that can easily be separated. The "wrap-around-synergy-sub" would replace the PPSL´s
Well, just a crazy idea 🤔 to "easily" upgrade your existing LCR system.😀
Steffen
Are you saying there is a difference in sound whether the port is a round hole or a segment of a circle (provided equal port-area)? 🤔
My idea in the drawing i attached was actually inspired by the woofer-ports seen in the BASH. So I think it still would have that acoustic low-pass feature. But you will maybe have to cross a bit lower with respect to the 1/4wl-rule?
The idea being a subwoofer-design that wraps around your existing SYN10´s, without changing the SYN10´s in any way. The SYN10´s mounted/fitted in the "Synergy-sub". Removable, like two in one that can easily be separated. The "wrap-around-synergy-sub" would replace the PPSL´s
Well, just a crazy idea 🤔 to "easily" upgrade your existing LCR system.😀
Steffen
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One horn to rule them all!
So far I think that sentence really sums up everything I've seen in regards to audio reproduction. Or rather the only thing that matters at the end of the day is the signal to noise ratio. Intermodulation distortion seems to be a big factor in that equation, as well as obviously power/frequency response and low decay times.
I can't see how adding extra drivers in a constrained device like that will ever decrease sq, assuming the XO's are correctly implemented.
Anyway, really cool to see this project! Looks like it would sound amazing 😁.
Hi Steffen, sorry i couldn't give more time yesterday to the drawing you posted. I've thought about a triangular box a lot, one that would use room walls as the horn. Short of putting the dang speaker guts outside the room, or making a room within a room, I haven't gotten anywhere.
Waiting on you to figure this one out !
I don't know here. I try for port area to be about 1/8th Sd. I prefer to keep the ports length and width dimensions to a minimum, which of course leads to circles or ovals. And I kinda think potential chuffing needs to be considered .
The 1/4 WL rule gets real easy, when just using it from one section to another with all these sections.
For instance CD to 4" ports is about 3.5" for 970Hz ,,, (if I rebuilt I'd go to 2.5 -3" for use with any CD, and a further reason described below)
4" to 12" ports is 6" for 565hz.
12" to 18" is 7" for 485Hz.
Now those were all just closest distances going down horn wall(s).
What i'm intrigued with is the idea of keeping all contributing posts with 1/4 of each other.
For instance, the diagonal distance of the 18" ports from each other is a great big 22", for 155 Hz.
12"s are 12 inches diagonal, for 280 Hz.
And 4"s are 6 inches diagonal, for 565 Hz.
I'm thinking that set, 155Hz, 280Hz, and 565hz, maybe represents the maximum ideal xover frequencies.
Staying under 155Hz 18" to 12" is easy, so is 12" to 4" @ 280Hz, and CD to 4"s can be done too at 565Hz because of the coaxial CDs.
But at 5-600Hz xover has not sounded quite as good as a little higher (700Hz and up) on syn10's which have the same geometry there. (this is why I'd tighten the 4"s to 2.5-3" from CD on a rebuild.
The only modification to syn10 itself was adding the 18" ports. I guess you're wanting to avoid that. Seems to me, syn10 would have to start with a smaller horn, that gets extended by a syn11 enclosure. Maybe I'm not seeing the secondary flare design you haver in mind. But like i said earlier, i hope to be done with secondary's 😆
Hi Mark
Thanks for answering
😀 It´s almost finished in my head!
I still have some "excuses" for not starting the build, but I hope to get started soon. I have the 8x 4NDF34 midranges and got my hands on a pair of Faital Pro HF1440 compression-drivers. I have four 15" woofers for a start. But am tempted to replace them later with either four 10PR320 or 12PR320 per MEH (16 Ohm versions). I need to learn to use Hornresp to figure out what driver makes most sense. I plan to let the MEH go fullrange, to be part of the multisub array, so what driver will give the lowest output/deepest bass?
I have a design in mind that is modular. The midranges and the woofers will be on the top and bottom walls, that will be replaceable. I have been obsessing about the throat for some time, round to square, but think I have found a simple solution.
I hate to build things twice, so my MEH is pretty much build a hundred times in my mind!! But that is a personality-trait I have to handle. Back when I build spreaders for masts for super-yacht´s I was not the fastest, but never dit I produce for the scrapyard. I had everything planed and solved ahead! And yes I have contemplated to make a composite-horn out of glasfiber and epoxy, but I think to make a mold first and then some horns, I´ll never get finished.😱
"I'm thinking that set, 155Hz, 280Hz, and 565hz, maybe represents the maximum ideal xover frequencies." 👍
I have been thinking about that also, that makes very much sense. You just made it very clear by calculating all the "diagonal-1/4WL-frequencies"!
I guess that was the rationale behind moving your woofers 2 inches closer to the throat in your SYN10?
It really isn´t about the secondary flares, it´s more about weight-saving and handling . I do think in modules.
You just wrote that the SYN11 weighs almost 200 lbs!
So the idea was to kind of split the SYN11 up in smaller/lighter units. I just figured out that the "wrap-around-synergy-sub" could be split up in two halfs with an 18" woofer in each section (Two mirrored sections), and the SYN10 be "clamped" in-between! Well if you are interested I can make some sketches to visualize the idea.
That is interesting! Is that due to closed-box (all in one MEH) versus MEH plus bass-reflex-box (PPSL) sounding cleaner? Or is it because of a much better integration of the subs, i.e. fundamentals and their harmonics are better time-aligned? Or is it both? Hmm🤔.
Have a nice weekend 🙂
Steffen
Thanks for answering
😀 It´s almost finished in my head!
I still have some "excuses" for not starting the build, but I hope to get started soon. I have the 8x 4NDF34 midranges and got my hands on a pair of Faital Pro HF1440 compression-drivers. I have four 15" woofers for a start. But am tempted to replace them later with either four 10PR320 or 12PR320 per MEH (16 Ohm versions). I need to learn to use Hornresp to figure out what driver makes most sense. I plan to let the MEH go fullrange, to be part of the multisub array, so what driver will give the lowest output/deepest bass?
I have a design in mind that is modular. The midranges and the woofers will be on the top and bottom walls, that will be replaceable. I have been obsessing about the throat for some time, round to square, but think I have found a simple solution.
I hate to build things twice, so my MEH is pretty much build a hundred times in my mind!! But that is a personality-trait I have to handle. Back when I build spreaders for masts for super-yacht´s I was not the fastest, but never dit I produce for the scrapyard. I had everything planed and solved ahead! And yes I have contemplated to make a composite-horn out of glasfiber and epoxy, but I think to make a mold first and then some horns, I´ll never get finished.😱
"I'm thinking that set, 155Hz, 280Hz, and 565hz, maybe represents the maximum ideal xover frequencies." 👍
I have been thinking about that also, that makes very much sense. You just made it very clear by calculating all the "diagonal-1/4WL-frequencies"!
I guess that was the rationale behind moving your woofers 2 inches closer to the throat in your SYN10?
It really isn´t about the secondary flares, it´s more about weight-saving and handling . I do think in modules.
You just wrote that the SYN11 weighs almost 200 lbs!
So the idea was to kind of split the SYN11 up in smaller/lighter units. I just figured out that the "wrap-around-synergy-sub" could be split up in two halfs with an 18" woofer in each section (Two mirrored sections), and the SYN10 be "clamped" in-between! Well if you are interested I can make some sketches to visualize the idea.
That is interesting! Is that due to closed-box (all in one MEH) versus MEH plus bass-reflex-box (PPSL) sounding cleaner? Or is it because of a much better integration of the subs, i.e. fundamentals and their harmonics are better time-aligned? Or is it both? Hmm🤔.
Have a nice weekend 🙂
Steffen
Wait a minute...
You're 70 and building stand mounted dual 18" speakers for your living room?
I'm 52 and think 18 inch woofers are too heavy for almost any purpose.
I feel so old... Lol
Hi Again
That also brings up an other thing that I have been contemplating about for years.
How high up (in frequency) is it necessary to have 1/4WL spacing in respect to the crossover-region to maintain good summation?
If you cross the midranges at the normal 1/4WL-frequency, then the crossover-point is 6dB down (i.e. LR-filters). Above that the slope of the filter determines how fast the magnitude is attenuated. An octave higher we have 1/2WL summation! So how steep do we need the slope to be? 🤔. I very well know I am in obsession-speculation-territory 😱 here! I am just curios, to research the issue.
On the other hand, if the ports for the midranges (or woofers) are moved too close to the throat, the polar-response is starting to suffer, as the ports move up in the region where the next higher driver still gets loading of the horn-walls. That is how I have understood the issue of disturbance of the compression-driver by the midrange-ports!? It also seems that one looses some horn-loading of the midrange-driver or woofer if the ports are moved nearer to the throat.
So it is a balancing act. But it seems to make sense to take the diagonal distance between the ports into consideration.
Writing all this out of my head, and trying to make it understandable for others, I maybe gained some insight in Chriss´s (@Cask05) crossing approach!? Somewhere I read, that Chriss uses the steep slope of the upper-notch (1/4WL-distance to the throat) for his "zeroth-order-filters" for his lowpass on the woofers and then he uses PEQ´s to tame/attenuate what comes above the notch-frequency. In that way he seems to prevent unnecessary phase-rotation induced by higher-order-filters and still creates some "steep" filtering/attenuation above the notch-frequency!? I still need to figure out how he performs his "high-pass-filters" for the compression-driver!? 🤔
Well, maybe it´s all bable and bla bla bla for some. For me it just served as a vehicle for a thought-experiment that made some things clearer to me. 🙄
Have a nice weekend🙂
Steffen
That also brings up an other thing that I have been contemplating about for years.
How high up (in frequency) is it necessary to have 1/4WL spacing in respect to the crossover-region to maintain good summation?
If you cross the midranges at the normal 1/4WL-frequency, then the crossover-point is 6dB down (i.e. LR-filters). Above that the slope of the filter determines how fast the magnitude is attenuated. An octave higher we have 1/2WL summation! So how steep do we need the slope to be? 🤔. I very well know I am in obsession-speculation-territory 😱 here! I am just curios, to research the issue.
On the other hand, if the ports for the midranges (or woofers) are moved too close to the throat, the polar-response is starting to suffer, as the ports move up in the region where the next higher driver still gets loading of the horn-walls. That is how I have understood the issue of disturbance of the compression-driver by the midrange-ports!? It also seems that one looses some horn-loading of the midrange-driver or woofer if the ports are moved nearer to the throat.
So it is a balancing act. But it seems to make sense to take the diagonal distance between the ports into consideration.
Writing all this out of my head, and trying to make it understandable for others, I maybe gained some insight in Chriss´s (@Cask05) crossing approach!? Somewhere I read, that Chriss uses the steep slope of the upper-notch (1/4WL-distance to the throat) for his "zeroth-order-filters" for his lowpass on the woofers and then he uses PEQ´s to tame/attenuate what comes above the notch-frequency. In that way he seems to prevent unnecessary phase-rotation induced by higher-order-filters and still creates some "steep" filtering/attenuation above the notch-frequency!? I still need to figure out how he performs his "high-pass-filters" for the compression-driver!? 🤔
Well, maybe it´s all bable and bla bla bla for some. For me it just served as a vehicle for a thought-experiment that made some things clearer to me. 🙄
Have a nice weekend🙂
Steffen
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How to make a high pass without "named filters" not to load the HF driver with low frequencies is also something I do not understand fully. If using sealed boxes for mids and lows, you get a "free" 2nd order high pass, if I understand things properly, so that should make things easier there.