Agree. I have assumed the classics as "instrumental only" while pop/rock has "vocal"... so those with vocal is more critical (so of course techno music is considered less important).
And I mentioned that "it is okay if you don't know what you are missing". As an extreme example, many people don't know how "bass" should sound like (accuracy at extreme LF) but it doesn't hurt (them) at all...
Accuracy at midrange is much more critical of course but isn't it so rare (because both the electronics and the speakers should be accurate) that most people will not be able to tell which one is more accurate between 2 recordings/systems? 🙂
hmm, most people?
I don't think anyone would tell which is accurate, because there is not such a thing "accurate". Everything is colored in "different" way at recording process already. 🙂
I don't think anyone would tell which is accurate, because there is not such a thing "accurate". Everything is colored in "different" way at recording process already. 🙂
For example, Millennia Media HV-3, which is by far the most popular mic pre in the classical recording sessions more than 20 years, but it definitely has a coloration, unmistakable Millennia sound. Also Neumann M50 is probably the most prestigious mic for large classical recording for more than 50 years, but it has M50 sound, so that Hollywood engineers pay 30 grand for a mic. There are much cheaper transparent mics on the market...
By the way, Millennia Media is an op amp based preamp... Gosh!
By the way, Millennia Media is an op amp based preamp... Gosh!
Thank you for the precious info around here. i'm learning a lot.
- i don't have the fostex 206. I have the Vulcan plans for the cabinet
- i have two amps im my project table. The Tubelab SSE and the F5. they don't have to be the amps for my every day listening. Maybe the F5 will be a good choice for my listening tastes. If the 25w/channel doesn't do it, i'll build the F5 Turbo.
-I want to prioritize the music choice, then the elements to do justice for it.
so, to stay on topic, let me know if my deductions are right:
Classical music - Transient and phase is very important (JA8008; Visaton(what model, B200?) other speakers - Tang Band; Full range speakers? Coaxial?
My room size - No OB. maybe MLTL, TL, DTQWL? Didn't find any coaxial project. FAST is still on the table but reading about the full range speakers for classical, made me stop thinking about FAST. But now i am very confused about FAST or no FAST.
Relatively to my ear "habilities" - i don't know if can detect phase problems. Or identify them without someone to tell me if it is a phase problem. I think i will notice a diference, and like it or not. My instrument is the piano for almost 20 years.
Maybe this is an inglorious search for a system that will deliver an accurate orchestra/symphonic/piano concerto/violin concerto performance. For that i'll go to a concert hall. But if i'm spending money i just want to stay close. That's why i am bodering me and you with questions. thank you for your patience.
- i don't have the fostex 206. I have the Vulcan plans for the cabinet
- i have two amps im my project table. The Tubelab SSE and the F5. they don't have to be the amps for my every day listening. Maybe the F5 will be a good choice for my listening tastes. If the 25w/channel doesn't do it, i'll build the F5 Turbo.
-I want to prioritize the music choice, then the elements to do justice for it.
so, to stay on topic, let me know if my deductions are right:
Classical music - Transient and phase is very important (JA8008; Visaton(what model, B200?) other speakers - Tang Band; Full range speakers? Coaxial?
My room size - No OB. maybe MLTL, TL, DTQWL? Didn't find any coaxial project. FAST is still on the table but reading about the full range speakers for classical, made me stop thinking about FAST. But now i am very confused about FAST or no FAST.
Relatively to my ear "habilities" - i don't know if can detect phase problems. Or identify them without someone to tell me if it is a phase problem. I think i will notice a diference, and like it or not. My instrument is the piano for almost 20 years.
Maybe this is an inglorious search for a system that will deliver an accurate orchestra/symphonic/piano concerto/violin concerto performance. For that i'll go to a concert hall. But if i'm spending money i just want to stay close. That's why i am bodering me and you with questions. thank you for your patience.
If you put too large a speaker in a room, the room can become pressurized to the point where you will feel physically unpleasant. You will be forced to turn down the volume or bass or both. I know the temptation though. Bob Brines speaker in post #4 looks like a good fit to me. The build should be fairly simple. You could always add subwoofers later if needed. That speaker is not on his website (at least I can't find it) so I don't know if plans are available.
Your approach is a good one.
The advantage of visiting live concerts regularly is that the "real" sound will settle in your brains.
Realizing that reproducing music in a domestic environment is at best an approach towards that "real" sound it is easier to accept the shortcomings of the loudspeaker, and believe me all loudspeakers have shortcomings.
For your application I would stick to my advice of one of TG's 3-way classics: a dedicated midrange for the important vocal range, and ample bass and treble capability with quality woofers and tweeters, and they are well within your budget.
Moreover these loudspeakers are not that large and it will be easier to find a sweet spot for them in your room. TG's DTQW speakers are attractive, but they will be more difficult to place for best sound because they depend more on floor/wall coupling.
The advantage of visiting live concerts regularly is that the "real" sound will settle in your brains.
Realizing that reproducing music in a domestic environment is at best an approach towards that "real" sound it is easier to accept the shortcomings of the loudspeaker, and believe me all loudspeakers have shortcomings.
For your application I would stick to my advice of one of TG's 3-way classics: a dedicated midrange for the important vocal range, and ample bass and treble capability with quality woofers and tweeters, and they are well within your budget.
Moreover these loudspeakers are not that large and it will be easier to find a sweet spot for them in your room. TG's DTQW speakers are attractive, but they will be more difficult to place for best sound because they depend more on floor/wall coupling.
Thak you.
the floor/wall coupling might be a problem for me because my room is not completly symmetrical.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/tube...n-vs-room-size-suggestions-needed-please.html
i can't use the full width of the wall to place the speakers. Door passage in the way. it is already a problem with my tannoy sensys speakers to achieve equal response (i feel differences in both channels). Just see the picture in the post above linked. I have a little open chamber at the door. I just want to put down the wall and build a new one at door level 🙂 🙂 but i can't
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Full range is great for small classical music groups, and the Harpsichord or other solo instruments but they are not suitable for massive orchestras or choral pieces. If you want better detail and sound handling, adding a well matched tweeter and even a simple first order crossover usually works well.
Maybe consider a high quality, efficient two-way like the Audio Note design here.
AN-E Speaker Kits | Hifi Collective
Something using high efficient drivers like the Seas or Scan Speak drivers here partnered with a nice tweeter.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/scanspeak-classic-p21wo20-8-woofer-poly-cone/
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...22rex/p-sl-h1659-08-8-woven-poly-cone-woofer/
AN-E Speaker Kits | Hifi Collective
Something using high efficient drivers like the Seas or Scan Speak drivers here partnered with a nice tweeter.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-8-woofers/scanspeak-classic-p21wo20-8-woofer-poly-cone/
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...22rex/p-sl-h1659-08-8-woven-poly-cone-woofer/
following inductor and Adason's opinion i've just read the entire post/thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/276803-umpteenth-large-format-coaxial-driver-thread.html
The problem here is that i don't know how to design the enclosure and de XO. Is this really dificult? with this choice, is easy to make a huge mistake? at ~340€/speaker (B&C 15") it would be terrible for a newbie like me.
It's my last question. sorry. if the coaxial solution is to much for me, i will stick to TG's options.
Thank you
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/276803-umpteenth-large-format-coaxial-driver-thread.html
The problem here is that i don't know how to design the enclosure and de XO. Is this really dificult? with this choice, is easy to make a huge mistake? at ~340€/speaker (B&C 15") it would be terrible for a newbie like me.
It's my last question. sorry. if the coaxial solution is to much for me, i will stick to TG's options.
Thank you
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Yes, from what I remember the coax was an active 2x amp crossover and there isn't a definitive xover layout for passive setup tested. The enclosure is not a problem since we can simulate adequate and efective best options for it. I agree with you in playing on the safe side. Others projects and coaxs might come with crossover tested for sale or included in the pack e.g. as the Beymas.
I believe that the 3-way classics from TG will be a good choice if you are okay with the bass. Here is one compromise that you will face in choosing/designing speakers:
How low do you need the frequency can go? Lower means either more $ or less sound quality...
IMO, classical is a music that requires quite low FR reproduction to sound good. The question is how low? I would prefer: (a) Three-way (b) 10-inch woofer... The shape will be similar to the traditional Thiel slanted baffle.
It is not possible for small expensive woofers to subjectively surpass the bass quality of bigger woofer, but there is quality that is inherent (means: easy to achieve naturally) to woofers with wide cone area...
A cheap but is high performance woofer is available from old Peerless. Well, the best classical music I have heard from my speakers were from 3-way using Peerless drivers with similar appearance with older Thiel CS speakers...
Today, I prefer and focus more on sound quality than bandwidth (I even refuse to use the normal vented system), because classical music is not my things...
I honestly have no clue what you try to mean "accuracy", but since it is practically impossible to reproduce the sound of acoustic instruments (including reflections) electronically, the producers have been trying to find the way to make the recorded music sound just "more convincing", "subjectively better" or whatever. No producer uses measurement mics for their recordings just because they are more accurate, low distortion and flat response, since they do sound subjectively undesirable for music recording.
Professional engineers sometimes use a word, "translate", which probably would mean closer to "accuracy" you call, I guess. When someone says, "This recording translate well", that means, the music sounds as intended in many different kind of end users' audio system, from car radio to high end audio. This is actually one of the main purpose of the mastering process: raise the translation factor.
If you mean my 15-inch setup, nope, it's passive. I just haven't published a crossover yet, since it's still work in a slow progress. And somehow I've yet again managed to pile up parallel projects besides that to keep me busy. But it's coming, worry not.
That being said, there are other possible coaxial options. A fellow finnish DIY'er has published a 55 liter bass reflex version of the slightly smaller B&C 12FCX76, which sound pretty darn good in my opinion, and leaves only little to be desired in the bottommost octave compared to it's larger brother. But I have to admit it's the more sensible choice of the two, given it's almost diminutive size relative to it's capabilities. Punch, dynamics, clarity all there. Just the lowest rumbles are slightly lacking.
Coaxials IMHO bring the best of both worlds; they have almost the amount of coherence as fullranges, combined with the ability of multiways to withstand heavily instrumented passages without sounding confused. Combine that with the dynamic capabilities of PA-drivers, and some people get easily addicted. Plus the nearly constant directivity pattern of large coaxes gives a comfortably wide sweet spot, wider than dome tweeters usually give, let alone a large fullrange.
I agree with all Adolf said about coaxials...12" is a good start, sub can be added later. Crossover can be as simple as one cap and L-pad on the tweeter, and one coil for the woofer, to start with. Some eq can be done in line level too.
Result can be stunning, for not too much investment.
Great dynamic, with high efficiency and low power required, can provide uncolored life like sound. Not just for classical music, but any...
Result can be stunning, for not too much investment.
Great dynamic, with high efficiency and low power required, can provide uncolored life like sound. Not just for classical music, but any...
Crossover for coax could be much more complicated to design if the phase alignment and transient are considered. Urei 813 is an example.
I've heard some excellent coaxial systems, but that being said, coaxial is a format and not any guarantee of quality. Many are rather mediocre at best. Still, it's not a bad way to go for a first project. But get a good one. 🙂
If a crossover is used, to my ears the only ones that result in a sound like real instruments are the transient perfect type. My experience is limited to true first order, both parallel and series, but there are other TP approaches. Speakers with higher order crossovers can absolutely sound great, but IME they'll never achieve the kind of realism than can fool your cat. However, with a FAST system and its low crossover, there's not going to be any obvious damage unless you are really picky. A 4th LR or whatever is probably going to be fine for 99.9% of people. Coaxials aren't really amenable to FAST though, so it's a moot point.
If a crossover is used, to my ears the only ones that result in a sound like real instruments are the transient perfect type. My experience is limited to true first order, both parallel and series, but there are other TP approaches. Speakers with higher order crossovers can absolutely sound great, but IME they'll never achieve the kind of realism than can fool your cat. However, with a FAST system and its low crossover, there's not going to be any obvious damage unless you are really picky. A 4th LR or whatever is probably going to be fine for 99.9% of people. Coaxials aren't really amenable to FAST though, so it's a moot point.
Coaxials have the added advantage of sometimes having an ideal acoustic offset of the tweeter (CD) perfectly situated behind the woofer for correct time alignment. So in some cases, a first order cap HPF on tweeter and coil LPF on woofer will result in a fortuitous transient perfect setup. For a XO at typical 1200Hz, the acoustic offset works out about right and can be moved to suit the time alignment. Of course, modeling in PCD or Xsim first will ensure best results.
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