Madmike2 said:
🙁 The more this goes on the more confused and disheartened i become. Second guessing what i should buy. WHAT SHOULD I BUY ?! This is going absolutely no where! Its again becoming obvious that its all about PERSONAL PREFERENCE regardless of absolutes - specs, wire, DF, wattage, input gain vs S/N ratios BAHHHHHHHH
Its no wonder companys have to hire professionals liars. Without superfluous far reaching BS statements consumers would buy Akai and Pyramid audio everytime since its 50 price points cheaper then anything else. 😡 I give up. I am going to finish building the damned sub boxes and sit and stare at how much money i have spent and gotten nothing. I have become the emporer in new clothes.
don't be disheartened by babblings here... many of these people speak from theory not from practice
few if any of the things discussed in this thread will be more than slightly audible... and even less so unless AB testing is done
many people like to overexaggerate the SQ differences to feel "superior" or like those time consuming and expensive upgrades really led to a night and day difference
when in fact the only thing from my somewhat diverse experience that makes night and day differences are speakers and rooms
Audiophilenoob said:
That's BS.
That tells me anything, you can mess things up.
Audiophilenoob said:
What do you know about preamps, or phono preamps?
What kind of proofs do you need if you and your 'partner' don't give any proofs?
Are you saying a good phono preamp (for those who listen to vinyl) is not a good upgrade?
I make my own, and I compared with $$$$ ones.
Audiophilenoob said:
Go and compare a Sony SCD-1 to a Linn CD12, both playing CDs.
It's a world of a difference. The Sony has such an untight bass as a mad cow. And the untight bass kills everything else.
And they are both very expensive machines.
Audiophilenoob said:
What?!
You have a LOT to learn, young man.
You don't seem to mind having several cascaded active stages with lots of op-amps, and that says it all.
Audiophilenoob said:
No, I don't. AT ALL.
Audiophilenoob said:
That's not my business.
And that, again, tells me nothing.
You can spend those $7999 very badly.
Audiophilenoob said:
Ok then, you're an Audiophile NOOB.
carlosfm said:
That's BS.
That tells me anything, you can mess things up.
What do you know about preamps, or phono preamps?
What kind of proofs do you need if you and your 'partner' don't give any proofs?
Are you saying a good phono preamp (for those who listen to vinyl) is not a good upgrade?
I make my own, and I compared with $$$$ ones.
Go and compare a Sony SCD-1 to a Linn CD12, both playing CDs.
It's a world of a difference. The Sony has such an untight bass as a mad cow. And the untight bass kills everything else.
And they are both very expensive machines.
What?!
You have a LOT to learn, young man.
You don't seem to mind having several cascaded active stages with lots of op-amps, and that says it all.
No, I don't. AT ALL.
That's not my business.
And that, again, tells me nothing.
You can spend those $7999 very badly.
Ok then, you're an Audiophile NOOB.
I didn't spend $7999 on that Class A... didn't even spend $500 on it...
secondly... You comparing a Sony CD player to Linn is stupid... I SAID WELL BUILT components didn't I??? I think I did
you wanna compare a CD/Vinyl (phonopreamp... blahblahblah) to my integrated HD... go ahead... bring it on... I've tried many many CD player and returned them all... I don't want CDs.... they are inconvient, CD players can add noise... and it's so much better to just do a Direct output from the HD drive I built...
I can provide proof that power is power no matter orgin as long as there isn't excessive (read: audible) oscillation or distortion added from the amplifier... the proof is all the proof that electricity isn't magic
if an op-amp is well designed it shouldn't induce noise... and even if you can POSSIBLY hear it with your "golden ears" the difference would be absurdly minor...
come back aroudn when you've come up with a better Xover solution than "well let your midbass beam like crazy"... or put several thousand feet of inductor wire and caps in line with the high voltage signal
BTW my name was solely based that people like Tom Danly and others will always be superior in knowledge to me... not because of store bought lovers like you
Audiophilenoob said:
That goes for everything, including speakers.
The fact is: speakers are the last component in the chain.
They can't make miracles if what feeds them is bad.
Source components, preamps, amplifiers are ALL important, in this order of importance.
Audiophilenoob said:
That is BS theory.
You can have a 'bit-perfect' copy of a CD on your HDD.
But NO JITTER is something that doesn't exist, you can't put it out of the computer in that pure form as it is on the file, no matter what interface you use. Including USB.
Who thinks this way doesn't know anything about digital, digital interfaces, never built a dac, never reclocked.
Audiophilenoob said:
Hah!😀 😀 😀
Of course it is audible, and even more so if you cascade them.
Claims like this tell it all, you don't need to say anything else.
Audiophilenoob said:
Do you know my midbass? Have you heard my speakers?
I though so.
So, who thinks just in theories and doesn't have any practice?
You just never had DECENT drivers to implement what I say. You really need TOP quality drivers, and the tweeter is very critical.
And with those in your hand, you would be unable to make a crossover.
Bye, NOOB.
It has been lots of fun.
Whatever you say, it has no credit, I knew you would make your own hole.
Yeh you are right thanks for pointing it out that I am wasting my time on here... damping factor is only part of what determines an amps qulity I never elluded to anything different thaN that...Variac said:
Yeh the k2 is my fav no doubt... But hey dont confuse what I am saying here... there are a lot of people like my grandpa and they do not like razor sharp, crisp, highly dynamc, and transparent music...Variac said:
as far as the sample is concerned I have 16 freaking amps off all types including 3 tube amps sitting on the shelves in the basement LOL... well not including the 2 I designed... I think that is enough for my purposes and in audio you can hit someone over the head with a brick and bruise and bleeding they will say prove it that my head was hit with a brick...
well speakers are the most important part of the stereo as that is what is going to actually change electrical energy into acoustic energy... then the second most important thing is how well you control that action. then picking a good room will do wonders in giving you good sound...Variac said:
That is the starting point and the most important...
So my focus and the boundaries I tried to limit my part of this discussion to is the controlling of the driver... but others bring all sorts of other nonessential issues into it because many have little experience and only throw sales writeups at me rather than proving my math wrong...
I am saying that High damping by that I mean maintaining a damping of >200 at the speaker terminals is th eholy grail of good damping practices... So a df of 250 or better is the holy grail of amps as far as damping is concerned... and I really do not care what name plate is on the front... I also from my experience will go with fet over bipolr too... and I persoanlly use amps nw days with df's over 1000 to give me some wiggle room on wire...Variac said:
No I also have a 30+ year old phase linear that I also like and for the very same reason, high damping...
Sure and if you pay close attention to what they are "really" saying its most often speculation, their hot theory for the day, their dream gear, best guess or even their uneducated ears...Variac said:
Rather than keeping the dicussion on the area of discussion I put forth in my post such as wire resistance they bring in wire capacitance and inductance... which I again showed by the use of very much simplified math that the poles are so hi in frequency it dont freakin matter! But nope they read in uncle joes stereo a go go that 200 pf is really going to mess the sound up!!!
Yeh at 2 million hz... Now the max a human can hear is 20,000... So what is the point of brining this into the conversation? It just confuses the whole issue... and this last round of low damping amps makes want to scream...
I have been in this for years, I have a nicely stocked electronic lab as well as machine shop... with lots of nice equipment in both areas...
I would think that my personal experience in this in actually testing all this garbage and the fact that I am willing to illustrate it mathematically as compared to all these people just spouting their stereo a go go opinions with nothing to back them up would hold some amount of credibility...
Hey if yo uwant to get your advice from what I call fancifull listeners dont let me slow you down but if yo uwant bottom line common sense building that cuts through all the jabber and starts with the most important issues then I am a good person to talk with...
Look back thru all the posts and see how many people have supported what they say with their own work... Johan was the only one... all the rest are just talking!!!
The moral of the story is to ask these guys to prove what they say... Math, pics and design specs and NONE have done it...
Most have commercially designed speakers... take their advice and you will be buying commercial speakers too...
Variac said:
Simple... Expounding ideal mathematical models as being reality is totally misleading
Look at his latest post!!
Carlos said: You seem to ignore the most important: the source component.
Anyone with extensive real life experience will tell you the most important single item is the speakers.
I have this 50 dollar ultx kmart special tape player and I love to get a so called audiophile over here listen to em rave and then drop the bomb that he is listening to a 50 buck tape player... I have great fun with that 🙂
That is the difference between someone with experience and some who fancies something and spews theory misleading and confusing those trying to get a grip on what really are the most important considerations when building...
rnrss said:
The opposite.
Otherwise just use a cheap portable cdp on your system.
You will assist a miracle performed by your speakers and Virgin Mary: they will make it sound good.
and with that gentlemen you all have a wonderfull banterfest, because I am sticking to the business of a few other issues I need squared away elsewhere...
good luck Mike!
bye all
good luck Mike!
bye all
No worries, there's a couple of things you could try.
If you're up to some DIY, make yourself some Cat5 or heavy wire cables and see if you hear a difference. If you'd rather buy than make, buy them and be sure your vendor has a reasonable return policy with no restocking fee.
Let's help Madmike2 decide. If you've auditioned different speaker cables, what did you think about what you heard?
I'll go first. I built 2 pairs of braided Cat5 cables and like how they sound. They're a real improvement over the 18 gauge zip cord I used to use. They're now a permanent fixture in my system.
Thanks BillH i know this post is long and drawn out and i really dont expect that you would read from the start but i already did all that and i personally did not hear a difference once i got to heavier gauge wire. I am snapping because it started to go towards amps and thats my next step and 5 different people say 5 different things. Its spinning my brain gerbil into dizzyness.
And Carlos i am in no way saying i know more then anyone on this forum BUT when it comes to computers i will head to head ANYONE here. The comment from Noob about Harddrive is Valid. Let me repeat something from a magazine interview with a top engineer in California from one of my many DAW magazines. I cant say it word for word but ill look it up eventually. he said something like
"... with my mackies. Playback qualities and her incredible voice. It all sounds fantastic here. I just hate handing it off finished mix downs to the UFO scientists who send it back on those little flying saucers. Its never the same sound. " he was talking about what a pleasure it was to work with Natasha Beddingfield. There was more.
Someone find that article where the head of sony music USA says that he likes to listen to his records to relax and the reporter corrects him and he says , "No, records, they sound far superior to me."
Its times like this where i wish i had the disposable income to take home and audition many amps🙁
And Carlos i am in no way saying i know more then anyone on this forum BUT when it comes to computers i will head to head ANYONE here. The comment from Noob about Harddrive is Valid. Let me repeat something from a magazine interview with a top engineer in California from one of my many DAW magazines. I cant say it word for word but ill look it up eventually. he said something like
"... with my mackies. Playback qualities and her incredible voice. It all sounds fantastic here. I just hate handing it off finished mix downs to the UFO scientists who send it back on those little flying saucers. Its never the same sound. " he was talking about what a pleasure it was to work with Natasha Beddingfield. There was more.
Someone find that article where the head of sony music USA says that he likes to listen to his records to relax and the reporter corrects him and he says , "No, records, they sound far superior to me."
Its times like this where i wish i had the disposable income to take home and audition many amps🙁
carlosfm said:
your 4/6" midbass can't have good off axis extension past 2.5-4khz... sry to say bud...
you've never had practice sir... you yourself have never applied these ideas... only let others (speaker company's) tell you how to apply them and do it for you
you have no notion of audibility in a AB comparison... nor do you have a notion of what is audibile vs. what is only minoring audible given the right ears, music, etc
so lemme get this straight about your lovely CD player nonsense... you're saying that because I can't purely take it from a file out my USB line into the inputs that it's worse than CDs??? 😱
my point was that NO CD player I've encountered can do what my HDD can do... nor can it boot up as quickly (Cheetah HD)... none of them have the perfection of the sonics either...
there is no coloration that I can hear... there is nothing added to my ears.... if you think a lazer/vinyl player (with whatever magic phonopreamp you think you can make) can touch it... go ahead... digital owns you... get with the times
Oh and I guess calling me a noob makes your points not as retarded correct??? at least I've done testing and only talk about what I've experienced... not what I've read from a review about my speakers or what WinISD states
🙄
Madmike2 said:
thank you sir... of course it's valid.... it's easily the most noise free way to introduce music into low voltage signals 🙂 well that any common person can afford
That's strictly correct only for idealized flat, rigid diaphragms. It is quite common to extend dispersion by controlled break-up modes and by shaping.
I did read it from the beginning. It's taken a few detours from your cable question.
I won't try to draw a conclusion from our small sample of cable experiences except to suggest that the cable is only a part of a larger system and the differences are unpredictable. Large cables work for rnss, but not for you. Cat5 works for me.
After my experience I find myself less skeptical of and more open minded about other audio improvements. CD transports, amplifier topology, SET, etc. Thank you, all. 🙂
rnrss said:
thank you sir.... when experience talks it makes others look like fools
stamp a Krell logo on any amp and people RAVE.... psychology is a funny thing... that's why it's one of my majors 🙂
Audiophilenoob said:
digital on CD has far more problems than analog on vinyl. Far too much information is tossed away to squeeze analog intp 44/16
When i was your age that is what i thot too... 30 years of real world experience has taught me different.
dave
SY said:
😉 Good one Mr. Y.
The rest of you should consider going outside and doing some deep breathing excercises.
Cal
planet10 said:
Any links telling of "lost information" in CD's?
I'm fairly certain that the laser reading function simply allows for tighter data burning vs. a vinyl album which is read via needle...
I still have yet to hear any differences between amps/preamps/CD players that could even approach the difference between speakers
~snip~
but does this mean that the CD is bad??? in fact no... it means those you converted from vinyl to CD were morons...
reading some more 🙂
but does this mean that the CD is bad??? in fact no... it means those you converted from vinyl to CD were morons...
reading some more 🙂
Audiophilenoob said:
That is a whole nother thread's worth... the information is gone long before it ever gets to the CD. And there is clear mathematics to back that up. It is actually amazing that modern CD playing systems can sound as good as they do. A really 1st class CD rig is so much more expensive than a decent analog rig
more listening, more training required....
speakers produce a much more varied presentation & may be the most colored component, but even dramatically different speakers (that are up to a certain level of quality) can let you listen to the music if they are fed enuff information.
dave
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