planet10 said:
even if digital audio recording/storage/reproduction has more problems than the analog counterpart, there are certain advantages it has over analog or it wouldn't be where it is today. certainly a main advantage is the fact that the medium doesn't degrade every time you play a recording. a really good book for information on this stuff is Principles of Digital Audio by Ken Pohlmann.
the 44.1khz sampling rate allows for frequenices higher than most of can hear to be encoded (i'm only good up to around 17khz) and 16 bits allows for an awful lot of resolution. sure some info. is lost but there's still plenty there to convey enough musical emotion for most of us
(or maybe just me). if you have better ears maybe dvd audio will be the cure your cd audio woes?as for wire, 14ga ofhc copper is good enough for my ears.
BWRX said:
even if digital audio recording/storage/reproduction has more problems than the analog counterpart, there are certain advantages it has over analog or it wouldn't be where it is today. certainly a main advantage is the fact that the medium doesn't degrade every time you play a recording. a really good book for information on this stuff is Principles of Digital Audio by Ken Pohlmann.
the 44.1khz sampling rate allows for frequenices higher than most of can hear to be encoded (i'm only good up to around 17khz) and 16 bits allows for an awful lot of resolution. sure some info. is lost but there's still plenty there to convey enough musical emotion for most of us
as for wire, 14ga ofhc copper is good enough for my ears.
that's what I've come across as well
also the difference is rarely audible
"In a CD (and any other digital recording technology), the goal is to create a recording with very high fidelity (very high similarity between the original signal and the reproduced signal) and perfect reproduction (the recording sounds the same every single time you play it no matter how many times you play it).
To accomplish these two goals, digital recording converts the analog wave into a stream of numbers and records the numbers instead of the wave. The conversion is done by a device called an analog-to-digital converter (ADC). To play back the music, the stream of numbers is converted back to an analog wave by a digital-to-analog converter (DAC). The analog wave produced by the DAC is amplified and fed to the speakers to produce the sound.
The analog wave produced by the DAC will be the same every time, as long as the numbers are not corrupted. The analog wave produced by the DAC will also be very similar to the original analog wave if the analog-to-digital converter sampled at a high rate and produced accurate numbers"
also no music is recorded on vinyl anymore
DVD audio sure is the wave of the future... most new CDs come on DVDs from the big names
re speakers
The amplifier and speaker constitute a system that has electronic, electrical and mechanical parts. Isolating any component at the expense of others is bound to lead to error since you must treat the whole thing as a system, the weakest link in which is definately, as always the transducers.
The amplifier and speaker constitute a system that has electronic, electrical and mechanical parts. Isolating any component at the expense of others is bound to lead to error since you must treat the whole thing as a system, the weakest link in which is definately, as always the transducers.
Audiophilenoob said:
also no music is recorded on vinyl anymore
do you buy your music on another planet. Music is recorded to either tape or hard-disk now. (I have one direct-to-disk from many years ago but those have always been few and far between)
The final mix is then transferred to CD or Vinyl, often both are available. Vinyl is not common (it's more common than cassette tape or hi-res formats) but i can get many NEW rock, rap, jazz and classical on records especially the non-major labels.
I like records (I also think CD is OK), have you ever heard one on a good system?
Sean
seanzozo said:
my experience with records is very limited, but not to say no existant... I've only heard one setup playing records and it wasn't anywhere near good quality (probably crappy table etc)
none of the stores I have access too even have vinyl for any music I listen to...
DVD-audio/CDs is the major thing I buy if I buy anything
soongsc said:I see argument among the religions.
I'm not here to argue that I'm right and others are wrong... in fact the exact opposite...
I'm not above saying that maybe speaker wire does make a difference... maybe amps make a bigger difference than I've had experience with.... all these things can possibly be true
I simply didn't want Carlos to spread misinformation without rebuttal...
audiblity is key.... and from my experience (sure it's limited compared to some here... but not to carlos) is that speakers and the room should be at the very top of the list to get correct early on...
all the rest is fluff to make them sound the best they possibly can
source is also important... but in this day and age it's not hard to get this into very nice tolerances for cheap
BWRX said:
You are thinking in too few dimensions -- music is not sine waves. Way back here i gave a clear example of why harmonics at higher frequencies than you can hear a single tone at affect the music.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=693684#post693684
And on top of that, the steep filters used to try to meet the "NOTHING above the Nyquist cause phase shift all the way down into the midrange. Realistically, your hearing would need to cut off somewhere between 2-5k for the 44.1 kHz sampling rate to be high enuff.
dave
BWRX said:
Certainly they are more convient to store & use, but the big driver is corporate profits. The CD was pushed big-time to increase the profits....
There are also big advantages in the studio, but there are many recording artists who still insist on analog.
Even Sony has backed off the "perfect sound forever". SACD & DVD-A gave the promise of better sound, but it looks now like they will die under the weight of upcoming DVD-HD or BlurRay.
dave
Audiophilenoob said:
Source is VERY important... seems to cost at least $1k to get a really reasonable CD player, a little less for a TT (but then you also need a phono stage). Of course a little DIY or buying used can help out here (but really good CD players haven't been around all that long so finding outstanding used ones is kinda hard).
A pretty good set of speakers can be DIYed for a whole lot less.
dave
well here you go.... I simply couldnt leave ya hanging Mike...
I lost my T-S design book in a fire in 96 so I tried doing a little search on Thiele/Small Analysis on the net to see if I could come up with anything as this book is both mine and the industries speaker building bible...
You know, when you buy a loud speaker and want to put it in an enclosure it is their methods of spec'ing out a driver/box etc that we all use called the:
Thiele/Small parameters,
Look on any manufacturers spec sheet!
Even Carlos heard of Vas!!!
These parameters are used as the standard in the industry for enclosure/driver sizing and performance to get a given response curve etc...
These guys are the GODS of driver/box/associated circuitry in speaker analysis people...
So here it is: Thiele/Small Analysis of damping!
Here is the link:
http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Sysdes/Thiel_small_analysis.htm
Effect of speaker cable resistance and amplifier damping factor
The results presented in this section include the effect of .04 Ohms amplifier output resistance, corresponding to an amplifier damping factor of 200, 10 feet of 16 AWG zip cord speaker cable with .04 Ohms per side, and .32 Ohms crossover resistance. (see the equivalent circuit schematic [6.5kb]). For the bi-amped configuration the crossover resistance is absent, and the circuit is more sensitive to cable and amplifier resistance. For this case, the effect of increasing the amplifier damping factor to infinity, and increasing the cable size to infinity is simply to produce an imperceptible 0.2-dB increase in SPL level. Did the infinite damping factor give the amp "greater control" over the transient response? No, the difference is imperceptible.
So the effect of increasing the damping factor beyond 200 is insignificant. And the effect of cables is insignificant, unless the cables are a lot longer, and/or a lot smaller.
I know many audiophiles will not believe this result. I would only say that there are many things that engineers do not understand well, but circuit analysis is not one of them.
The complete Thiele/Small damping circuit model is in the pic below for those of you who are ee's and not on some planet with the belief damping is all a sham...
If you dont believe Thiele/Small you should just go to the store and buy a set of speakers like carlos did ...
Here you go mike and anyone else interested... right from the leading authority on speaker analysis whos work is used as a standard in the industry... Hope you find this encouraging Mike!
My advice folks is to fly with the driver gods, (Thiele/Small ), and dont be fooled by the fanciful dreamers...
We all know who on this site has been preaching this since his first post on the subject and caught all kinds of flaq from the dreamers for doing so! But I wont mention who that was!
I rest my case!
I lost my T-S design book in a fire in 96 so I tried doing a little search on Thiele/Small Analysis on the net to see if I could come up with anything as this book is both mine and the industries speaker building bible...
You know, when you buy a loud speaker and want to put it in an enclosure it is their methods of spec'ing out a driver/box etc that we all use called the:
Thiele/Small parameters,
Look on any manufacturers spec sheet!
Even Carlos heard of Vas!!!
These parameters are used as the standard in the industry for enclosure/driver sizing and performance to get a given response curve etc...
These guys are the GODS of driver/box/associated circuitry in speaker analysis people...
So here it is: Thiele/Small Analysis of damping!
Here is the link:
http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Sysdes/Thiel_small_analysis.htm
Effect of speaker cable resistance and amplifier damping factor
The results presented in this section include the effect of .04 Ohms amplifier output resistance, corresponding to an amplifier damping factor of 200, 10 feet of 16 AWG zip cord speaker cable with .04 Ohms per side, and .32 Ohms crossover resistance. (see the equivalent circuit schematic [6.5kb]). For the bi-amped configuration the crossover resistance is absent, and the circuit is more sensitive to cable and amplifier resistance. For this case, the effect of increasing the amplifier damping factor to infinity, and increasing the cable size to infinity is simply to produce an imperceptible 0.2-dB increase in SPL level. Did the infinite damping factor give the amp "greater control" over the transient response? No, the difference is imperceptible.
So the effect of increasing the damping factor beyond 200 is insignificant. And the effect of cables is insignificant, unless the cables are a lot longer, and/or a lot smaller.
I know many audiophiles will not believe this result. I would only say that there are many things that engineers do not understand well, but circuit analysis is not one of them.
The complete Thiele/Small damping circuit model is in the pic below for those of you who are ee's and not on some planet with the belief damping is all a sham...
If you dont believe Thiele/Small you should just go to the store and buy a set of speakers like carlos did ...
Here you go mike and anyone else interested... right from the leading authority on speaker analysis whos work is used as a standard in the industry... Hope you find this encouraging Mike!
My advice folks is to fly with the driver gods, (Thiele/Small ), and dont be fooled by the fanciful dreamers...
We all know who on this site has been preaching this since his first post on the subject and caught all kinds of flaq from the dreamers for doing so! But I wont mention who that was!
I rest my case!
Attachments
The full name is Thiele/Small small signal parameters. The analysis breaks down at large signal levels -- most people forget this. Fortunately, in most home situations we are at small signal levels.
T/S parameters make modeling boxes -- particularily BR boxes much easier. All the math was around before, but in 1963 Neville Thiele had the clever idea to reformulate them into the easier to access parameters that Richard Small extended & popularized (AES paper in 1971).
The actual figures for damping, wire etc in the Ludwig page referenced were choosen by Ludwig for the purposes of his examples. The model has a place for source R and increased source R can be used to good advantage with many speakers -- a practical example ae the plentiful designs posted by GM. He is always careful to include source R into the mix -- even to the point of adding series R for high damping amps to improve the speakers alignment when necessary (smaller R, if any, required for low damping amps (ie SE tube amps)) or to caution against high source R if the design calls for high damping.
dave
T/S parameters make modeling boxes -- particularily BR boxes much easier. All the math was around before, but in 1963 Neville Thiele had the clever idea to reformulate them into the easier to access parameters that Richard Small extended & popularized (AES paper in 1971).
The actual figures for damping, wire etc in the Ludwig page referenced were choosen by Ludwig for the purposes of his examples. The model has a place for source R and increased source R can be used to good advantage with many speakers -- a practical example ae the plentiful designs posted by GM. He is always careful to include source R into the mix -- even to the point of adding series R for high damping amps to improve the speakers alignment when necessary (smaller R, if any, required for low damping amps (ie SE tube amps)) or to caution against high source R if the design calls for high damping.
dave
Yeh I couldnt sleep and I couldnt let let Mike hanging like that discouraged...janneman said:
Or simply go pro... If I remember right we are up to 192khz at 550kbps sampling... 10:1 ratio should produce good square waves to satisify the most picky out to 20k...BWRX said:
the 44.1khz sampling rate allows for frequenices higher than most of can hear to be encoded (i'm only good up to around 17khz) and 16 bits allows for an awful lot of resolution. sure some info. is lost but there's still plenty there to convey enough musical emotion for most of us
I am also an ee and I will agree with you...BWRX said:
i am an EE and i will tell you that speakers are electromechanical
well as you can see in my last post it is theile/smalls "thing" too...Variac said:
Yeh to bad everyone does not feel the same way! Kudos!Audiophilenoob said:
Re: re t-s
Benson's book is quite "heavy" and the speaker model is based on "real" physical parameters. Thiele did the transposition into the much easier to access parameters we know today. Small resurrected Thieles (mostly forgotten) work and brought it to the attention of the world.
dave
rcw said:
Benson's book is quite "heavy" and the speaker model is based on "real" physical parameters. Thiele did the transposition into the much easier to access parameters we know today. Small resurrected Thieles (mostly forgotten) work and brought it to the attention of the world.
dave
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