Thats good info and I will add that the box width and height that it is mounted in is also part of this equation...SY said:
Yeh I cant begin to tell you all the fun I have with that LOL THe 2496 eq has 64 memories to store different eq setups and I just pop it on one that says tape... Everyone understands that you need a different eq to play a tape LOL and I tweeked it close enough that it is almost impossible to tell the difference between that and a cd...Audiophilenoob said:
thank you sir.... when experience talks it makes others look like fools
stamp a Krell logo on any amp and people RAVE.... psychology is a funny thing... that's why it's one of my majors
Lots of red faces and arguments ensue... Fact is that it costed me like 50 bucks plus tax LOL
So much for people that get stoooopid on a super expensive source... LOL
To give them credit though once I sit them down and point out the differences they can hear it... and I certainly do not want say use junk for a source but its amazing what you can do with good sound processing equipment...
rnrss said:well here you go.... I simply couldnt leave ya hanging Mike...
I lost my T-S design book in a fire in 96 so I tried doing a little search on Thiele/Small Analysis on the net to see if I could come up with anything as this book is both mine and the industries speaker building bible...
You know, when you buy a loud speaker and want to put it in an enclosure it is their methods of spec'ing out a driver/box etc that we all use called the:
Thiele/Small parameters,
Look on any manufacturers spec sheet!
Even Carlos heard of Vas!!!
These parameters are used as the standard in the industry for enclosure/driver sizing and performance to get a given response curve etc...
These guys are the GODS of driver/box/associated circuitry in speaker analysis people...
So here it is: Thiele/Small Analysis of damping!
Here is the link:
http://www.silcom.com/~aludwig/Sysdes/Thiel_small_analysis.htm
Effect of speaker cable resistance and amplifier damping factor
The results presented in this section include the effect of .04 Ohms amplifier output resistance, corresponding to an amplifier damping factor of 200, 10 feet of 16 AWG zip cord speaker cable with .04 Ohms per side, and .32 Ohms crossover resistance. (see the equivalent circuit schematic [6.5kb]). For the bi-amped configuration the crossover resistance is absent, and the circuit is more sensitive to cable and amplifier resistance. For this case, the effect of increasing the amplifier damping factor to infinity, and increasing the cable size to infinity is simply to produce an imperceptible 0.2-dB increase in SPL level. Did the infinite damping factor give the amp "greater control" over the transient response? No, the difference is imperceptible.
So the effect of increasing the damping factor beyond 200 is insignificant. And the effect of cables is insignificant, unless the cables are a lot longer, and/or a lot smaller.
I know many audiophiles will not believe this result. I would only say that there are many things that engineers do not understand well, but circuit analysis is not one of them.
The complete Thiele/Small damping circuit model is in the pic below for those of you who are ee's and not on some planet with the belief damping is all a sham...
If you dont believe Thiele/Small you should just go to the store and buy a set of speakers like carlos did ...
Here you go mike and anyone else interested... right from the leading authority on speaker analysis whos work is used as a standard in the industry... Hope you find this encouraging Mike!
My advice folks is to fly with the driver gods, (Thiele/Small ), and dont be fooled by the fanciful dreamers...
We all know who on this site has been preaching this since his first post on the subject and caught all kinds of flaq from the dreamers for doing so! But I wont mention who that was!
I rest my case!
GODs? This is getting really religious now.
Any one that had done their own can show data that the T/S parameters not only apply to small signal (not too large signal and not too small), and the actual impedance data can vary from the model significantly (more than 1 ohm) throughout the audio bandwidth. These are really usefull in matching enclosures with driver.
Can anyone explain what this has to do with speaker cables?
Re: Re: re t-s
Therefore putting large wire on will serve you well at all volume levels... I hear the difference between low level and high level quite easily also... but not since I did the 00
Think about this for a second dave.
If adding a series R is changing the "response" by changing the "alignment", since a resistor has no reactance capabilities like a capacitor or inductor there is only 1 major possibility left that can cause the response of the driver to change...
He is aligning the driver by adjusting the amount of overshoot of the driver... and overshoot adds color and mud as it is not really there in the program material, it is a driver in the begining stages of the amplifier losing control of it...
Without reading any gm posts I can tell you that:
If you lower the driver damping you will get a peak in the response and a psuedo increase in low end response... and if you increase the damping you will reduce the "apparently" greater bass caused by the speaker overshooting the amps signal to it as the speaker tightens up and stabalizes... Like I said in earlier posts this amount can all be calculated...
Nothing new here... Now by my personal "very high standards" that is cheating...
The proper way to accomplish this is to use a tone control or an equalizer so your driver maintains under excellent control by means of a high damping amp at all times to prevent muddiness and resonant humps...
GM is probably doing it that way as "thats just the way its done" and possibly never gave it a second thought of what the driver is doing or he like so many feel its not important... lots of traditions carry forward like that right or wrong...
Thats the whole problem with the lowther tube people and their philosophy... I have a full horn setup, bass, midrange and tweeter, and My horns are razor sharp with a razor sharp image and they are just right... not to soft, not to bright, but I can at a twist of a few knobs put a hump anywhere you want...
Hey dont get me wrong single driver horns are a great engineering feat but I think they lost track of whats "really" important in good solid design and are trying to pull more out of them than they are capable of legitimately doing by essentially doing what many manufacturers have done for years, "cheating", rather than adding the appropriate auxilliary tone shaping equipment to "properly" remedy the loss in bass instead they prefer to brag about their full range response while making it muddy and colored with series resistance...
Thank you... I am not most. My normal listening level is between 100 to 115db and I watch the clock to prevent exposure damage... I mentioned that in several posts...planet10 said:
Therefore putting large wire on will serve you well at all volume levels... I hear the difference between low level and high level quite easily also... but not since I did the 00
Thank you again for making my point!planet10 said:
Think about this for a second dave.
If adding a series R is changing the "response" by changing the "alignment", since a resistor has no reactance capabilities like a capacitor or inductor there is only 1 major possibility left that can cause the response of the driver to change...
He is aligning the driver by adjusting the amount of overshoot of the driver... and overshoot adds color and mud as it is not really there in the program material, it is a driver in the begining stages of the amplifier losing control of it...
Without reading any gm posts I can tell you that:
If you lower the driver damping you will get a peak in the response and a psuedo increase in low end response... and if you increase the damping you will reduce the "apparently" greater bass caused by the speaker overshooting the amps signal to it as the speaker tightens up and stabalizes... Like I said in earlier posts this amount can all be calculated...
Nothing new here... Now by my personal "very high standards" that is cheating...
The proper way to accomplish this is to use a tone control or an equalizer so your driver maintains under excellent control by means of a high damping amp at all times to prevent muddiness and resonant humps...
GM is probably doing it that way as "thats just the way its done" and possibly never gave it a second thought of what the driver is doing or he like so many feel its not important... lots of traditions carry forward like that right or wrong...
Thats the whole problem with the lowther tube people and their philosophy... I have a full horn setup, bass, midrange and tweeter, and My horns are razor sharp with a razor sharp image and they are just right... not to soft, not to bright, but I can at a twist of a few knobs put a hump anywhere you want...
Hey dont get me wrong single driver horns are a great engineering feat but I think they lost track of whats "really" important in good solid design and are trying to pull more out of them than they are capable of legitimately doing by essentially doing what many manufacturers have done for years, "cheating", rather than adding the appropriate auxilliary tone shaping equipment to "properly" remedy the loss in bass instead they prefer to brag about their full range response while making it muddy and colored with series resistance...
Variac said:
Of course, as soon as you hook the speakers up through even a short length of wire, that DF becomes something more like 100...
planet10 said:
Two questions (and answers):
1. Is that degree of phase shift audible? (A: There's no evidence that it is.)
2. If it were to be shown that this degree of phase shift is audible, how difficult is this to correct while maintaining the 44.1kHz sample rate? (A: Trivially easy.)
Hi all
Well, I agree. There's a lot of persons here at diyAudio who write entertaining posts, like Planet, Jannemann and rnrss,
and a lot of other people as well. I don't have to agree with any of you, but I still enjoy reading your posts .
( OK, enough of that, I get this funny taste on my tongue )
rnrss, I salute your choice of big hornsystems , but think there are better ways to good sound than your obsession with DF. T/S are not gods, but just a tool for designing speakers. The resulting product may or may not sound good, that's beside the point, maybe.
You don't have to agree with me, either
cheers
janneman said:
Well, I agree. There's a lot of persons here at diyAudio who write entertaining posts, like Planet, Jannemann and rnrss,
and a lot of other people as well. I don't have to agree with any of you, but I still enjoy reading your posts .
( OK, enough of that, I get this funny taste on my tongue )
rnrss, I salute your choice of big hornsystems , but think there are better ways to good sound than your obsession with DF. T/S are not gods, but just a tool for designing speakers. The resulting product may or may not sound good, that's beside the point, maybe.
You don't have to agree with me, either
cheers
Audiophilenoob said:
Sorry to say that, bud, but there's a tweeter with a 1st order crossover there.
I you know what i mean.
Seems you have NO idea.
Audiophilenoob said:
What are you trying to teach me?
How do you know if I have practice or not?
Just because I have a commercial speaker on my MAIN system?
What are you trying to copy with your speaker project?
A commercial speaker.
At least I don't copy, I always try to make something different instead of copying enclosure dimentions, same drivers, same crossovers.
Audiophilenoob said:
I have made HUNDREDS of AB tests, you can't teach me anything.
You can FAIL, even with an AB test if you are not an experienced listener.
Because differences on what you are comparing can be very minor (and harder to detect) or huge.
What I say is that statistically, and in my experience, it doesn't prove anything because a bunch of guys doing an AB test can end up with different conclusions, some don't detect any difference until someone points it out and then it is clear to everyone.
Audiophilenoob said:
You are so vague, can't you understand?
First, NO CD player you've encountered means nothing.
Second, I also don't change my transport+dac for anything commercial.
Third, you don't specify anything about your source.
Yeah, the files are on the HDD, but what's next?
Soundcard?
Internal? External?
Digital out?
USB? S/PDIF?
I2S? EIAJ? (these you would have to MAKE).
Dac? What dac?
See what I mean?
That's why I said that it means nothing to have the files on yor hard disk.
SY said:
Right.
Audiophilenoob said:
The EPOS woofer was BUILT to be used without crossover, and it controls it's rolloff mechanically.
It has NO break-up, it has a phase plug and, along with the (HIGH QUALITY) tweeter (with 1st order crossover) it has a fantastic soundstage.
Anyone has to believe my words, it's just a question of HEARING to believe.
You can almost walk on that soundstage, every instrument has it's place, voice is in the middle.
What do you know about it?
NOTHING.
Go and read the link I posted, many pages ago.
Learn how it was build, the main objectives and effords that were taken to make a CLASSIC speaker.
Otherwise don't talk about them because you don't know.
rnrss said:
Look kid: I may as well go to Texas for every post here, mustard is getting to my nose.
Texas is a good place to be.
Show me a post where I say I don't believe TS parameters.
You are a coward that puts words in people's mouth that they didn't say.
You are like your friend NOOB, he criticizes vinyl, while he has only heard it ONCE.
Oohhh the internet... it's so nice to have a nickname, don't identify yourself and say what you want, isn't it?
Go to the store and get another amp.
carlosfm said:
Look kid: I may as well go to Texas for every post here, mustard is getting to my nose.
Texas is a good place to be.
Show me a post where I say I don't believe TS parameters.
You are a coward that puts words in people's mouth that they didn't say.
You are like your friend NOOB, he criticizes vinyl, while he has only heard it ONCE.
Oohhh the internet... it's so nice to have a nickname, don't identify yourself and say what you want, isn't it?
Go to the store and get another amp.
Well I had 3300 vinyls that took up a 4ft wide shelf all the way to the ceiling but dont worry carlos I am an equal opportunity critisizer... I critisize both vinyl and digital... oh and you and epos....
Wow what a speaker!!!
I sort of like texas....
Fine midband gives exceptional stereo imaging, with great depth and focus. Limited bass weight, and a touch of nasality on voice reproduction.
Power output (W) 75
Size (W x D x H cm) 20,38,25
Impedance (Ohms) 8
Sensitivity (volume for a given input, dB/W) 85
Bass rolloff 45
Threshold 2
Manufacturer: Epos
Telephone: 01705 498866
Price: £499
Reviewed in issue: 160
A warded Best Buy back in 1991 (issue 94), the Epos ES11 has both defined and dominated the market for high-quality, luxury-finish, bookshelf-size loudspeakers even since. Loudspeaker technology may not change radically or rapidly, but it does evolve slowly but surely, so several years down the road, a number of new development opportunities are available to update, refine and improve an old friend.
The new £500 ES12 looks virtually identical to its famous predecessor - after all, why change a successful formula? - and the appearance doesn't look in any way dated, either. The classic shape is finished in a tasteful, real-wood veneer (choose from light or dark cherry, or walnut), and the front panel is all the cleaner for elegantly 'radiussed' baffle edge.
The front panel is just one of many detail changes, though. There's a new tweeter (a 25mm aluminium-dome device) which is now made in-house. The bass driver has a new injection-moulded cone, and the solitary crossover component - a single capacitor protecting the tweeter from low frequencies - has also been upgraded. The bi-wire terminals fitted offer increased current capacity, and 'gas-flow' shaping has reduced turbulence in the rear-panel port.
The whole thing feels very hefty, implying a very solid, wood-veneered wrap, since both back and front panels are precision structural plastic mouldings, the latter incorporating the frame of the main driver. A new matching stand is planned, but was not available for review.
I dug out the ES11 data from issue 94, to investigate any obvious changes from the '11 to the '12. The impedances are very similar, even down to the main cone termination 'glitch' at 750Hz, while the bottom end has been slightly realigned. The ES12's overall balance is very similar to the ES11's, but slightly tighter in the midbass (there's no low bass here) and still rather lean in the upper bass. Both the broad midband and the treble are significantly smoother than the ES11, but extending the upper roll-off point of the main driver has made the transition between them rather more abrupt.
Sound Quality
A mixed and widely varied response in the blind listening tests makes the reviewer's life difficult, and if the ES12 came out about average overall - the most popular comment was "a good effort" - some listeners were much more impressed than others.
Fine stereo imaging and a freedom from boxiness are major plus points, and the broad midband is unquestionably open, well ordered and coherent. However, a touch of brightness and 'nasal' voice coloration does intrude towards the top end of the band. And while the bass end has good punch, it lacks some weight and dynamic contrast - the intended matching stand might help here.
Conclusion
The ES12, unquestionably, has a great midrange, capable of delivering a precise stereo sound-stage with convincing depth. Certainly improving on its illustrious predecessor in several respects, it also seems a little less artful at disguising its limitations. It's better suited to the smaller room, and a compatible system will be vital to get the most from this entertaining speaker.
so much for your ability to hear LOL
I am very glad you are happy with them but they are not my style...
rnrss said:
So much for their ability to review. LOL.
So much for the religious credit you give to the mags.
And that review has incorrect information, because the original tweeter on the Epos 11 was also made in-house.
If B&W recommends Classé amps and even the top of the range sound BAD and don't drive the Nautilus 801D and 802D, just imagine what can go wrong when those guys on the mags make a review.
Yes, amplification is important, and the Epos have good bass with a good amp.
rnrss said:
That's perfectly fine for me, your speakers are not my style too.
Buy why is all this fuss and the need to talk my name on every post you make?
Why personal attacks, why so much lies?
If you are happy, be happy.
Yeh just a miniscule 15 feet of awg 14 lolSY said:
DittoSY said:
slowmotion said:Hi all
rnrss, I salute your choice of big hornsystems , but think there are better ways to good sound than your obsession with DF. T/S are not gods, but just a tool for designing speakers. The resulting product may or may not sound good, that's beside the point, maybe.
You don't have to agree with me, either
cheers
well I dont think you understnad the whole situation in prpoer perspective....
If you like both loud and quiet music you get bass compression so to speak both when its quiet and again when it is loud...
Well I dont like that and putting big wire on it gets rid of that problem as well as all the other benifts that come with big copper...
carlosfm said:
Look kid: I may as well go to Texas for every post here, mustard is getting to my nose.
Texas is a good place to be.
Show me a post where I say I don't believe TS parameters.
You are a coward that puts words in people's mouth that they didn't say.
You are like your friend NOOB, he criticizes vinyl, while he has only heard it ONCE.
Oohhh the internet... it's so nice to have a nickname, don't identify yourself and say what you want, isn't it?
Go to the store and get another amp.
If you recall I never criticized vinyl.... in fact I apologized for saying CDs were superior in all apps...
either way... even the greatest audiophile "names" say there's little difference between the two mediums... quite a bit different than what you say the difference is
carlosfm said:
Sorry to say that, bud, but there's a tweeter with a 1st order crossover there.
I you know what i mean.
Seems you have NO idea.
What are you trying to teach me?
How do you know if I have practice or not?
Just because I have a commercial speaker on my MAIN system?
What are you trying to copy with your speaker project?
A commercial speaker.
At least I don't copy, I always try to make something different instead of copying enclosure dimentions, same drivers, same crossovers.
I have made HUNDREDS of AB tests, you can't teach me anything.
You can FAIL, even with an AB test if you are not an experienced listener.
Because differences on what you are comparing can be very minor (and harder to detect) or huge.
What I say is that statistically, and in my experience, it doesn't prove anything because a bunch of guys doing an AB test can end up with different conclusions, some don't detect any difference until someone points it out and then it is clear to everyone.
You are so vague, can't you understand?
First, NO CD player you've encountered means nothing.
Second, I also don't change my transport+dac for anything commercial.
Third, you don't specify anything about your source.
Yeah, the files are on the HDD, but what's next?
Soundcard?
Internal? External?
Digital out?
USB? S/PDIF?
I2S? EIAJ? (these you would have to MAKE).
Dac? What dac?
See what I mean?
That's why I said that it means nothing to have the files on yor hard disk.
I am in fact not even trying to copy any commerical speakers with my project... none are like the sound I'm getting out of this... this is far superior
I use a USB to my preamp from the HD, I could use a digital out as well if I feel like it, 250 GB external
secondly... if people need things pointed out in AB tests those count as minor differences... or non-existant differences because they can easily be influenced to "hear" something
I did say night and day differences didn't I???
again there's still no evidence that I was not correct in saying that everyone should worry first about speakers, room, and source.... before they go and mess with anything thing else
if the speakers are the best you can come up with they will only be magnified by having the "right" amps on them and the "right preamps" on them, wires, etc....
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