Careful now. Dissing nelson's designs here won't get you much respect. Nelson designs & builds some of the VERY best big solid state amps in existance. Yet now that they have made him enuff money that he doesn't have to worry about how the bills get paid, and he can build what he wants, out come the Firstwatt F1 & F2 -- both small amps with very low damping factor. That alone speakes volumes.
as to explaining the why & whatfor ...
There have been a whole whack of threads on current drive & transconductance amps of late ... check them out.
dave
Ok then... You and my friend wally must have been talking!... He is also an ee, in fact once upon a time my competitor in iz as well...planet10 said:
I did the dpdt 5ohm resitor test with him and every freaking time he picked my monster awg00 wires as sounding better than the 5ohm series resistor... but he still insists damping is a myth LOL
If I said it once I said it a million times: the sole reason people go to larger wire is to increase their damping factor... Leave all else the same the capacitance and inductance of the cables... yet there is the school of thought that you profess that damping is a myth...
For someone to say damping is a myth they obviously have never done a proper test to allow themselves to hear the difference or like Wally just prefer to be hardheaded regardless of reality...
Its a matter of physics like it or not that higher damping results in a more accurate cone movement than lower damping... I personally am not one to fly into the face of physics and toss it to the wind as a myth...
That and there are hords of people out here who have heard a marked difference by increasing the size of their wire especially in terms of imaging which removes inductance and capacitance from the arguement...
I have gone through the trouble of showing in detail and explaining in detail the process and effects of series resistance on damping...
I doubt if you have ever done any serious damping tests and if you have you did not do it on a system or setup where it could be obvious to you...
If damping is a myth then we have a many more people out here who are nuts when they listen to their systems with larger wire and hear better reproduced music...
Apparantly not... but then I can say the same... and suspect that you have obviously not heard a good feedback amp...planet10 said:
Again if you have a model that will knock my socks off I am all ears! I am always on the lookout for better sound and if you are correct I will joyfully eat all the crow I deserve on here and be thankfull because you will have helped me obtain better sound and regarless of circumstance I am always thankful and appreciative of that...
Now I have done damping factor tests a zillion times over the years and by starting this conversation by throwing physics out the window by saying you agree that damping is a myth is not a very good way to make a believer out of me... Physics, electrical and acoustical math has yet to steer me wrong but fanciful thinking has taken me on plenty rides through lala land...
and just to be perfectly clear I am not talking about electrostats, I am talking about coil and diaphram...
I gaurantee you that you and no one else cannot hear the difference between how many output devices an amp has and I gaurantee that you cannot hear the difference between a zero feedback and a neg feedback amp with identincal slew, damping and rolloff... and I have no idea what you mean by low efficiency multiway as my fav system is a 3 way horn...planet10 said:
I actually made a little quick change fixture with a 5ohm on a dpdt just for guys like you who claim damping is a myth and I would be happy to have you drop by and tell me which one sound the best to your ears and on my system it stands out like a sore thumb and you are welcome to stop by and prove your ears anytime you wish...
On a personal note I have yet to hear an amp that sounds better than a high damping amp, regardless of whats in the box... and so far fets lead the pack...
planet10 said:
Well the way I se it, if his amps were so great then the major manufacturers would be mass producing them by the thousands...
Since I am not aware of any companies producing trans amps that means there is no real market for them, and if there is no market for them then that says the whole story on thier true quality... there are a lot a fanciful listeners out here and you are right there is no way to earn their respect... but then there are a much greater majority of people out here who are not fanciful listeners and I will have their respect as they are the ones who have done the tests in a manner that can be heard and will agree with what I am saying on damping...
yeh well if you feel 5ohms is not low damping enough for your taste then even you in a split second can design an even lower damping amp and stick 10ohm in there... anyone who knows how to twist a couple wires together can design a low damping amp just by adding resisters to a quality high damping amp... sheeesh
planet10 said:
I disagree but since we cant seem to get past something as simple and obvious as damping I certainly am not going comment on this LOL
Like my grandpa there was nothing better than his 1940 am monkey wards radio
If I can just say something I'm coming to realize in audio
People like to jump the gun when it comes to their systems
the 3 biggest factors in music are the speakers, source material, and room...
good source material is fairly easy to obtain now adays... so just g o buy some CDs
now speakers... we all know that these make all the difference to our ears... swap out that PHL 1120 with a Seas and you will instantly notice that the PHL for midrange is far more dynamic, clear, and accurate... now try to play that PHL at 80hz... and bam the PHL sucks
first thing all of you should worry about is getting the optimal speaker system (all the money should go here until you can't posssibly get any better to your ears)
once you get that the best you can do .... then look into things like room acoustics
how to make that speaker that you loved so much sound the best it can...
ONCE THIS IS TAKEN CARE OF (read as... this step is probably when you're in your 50s).... then it's time to take care of the amplifiers... and optimize them for those speakers that you love
then... lastly.... worry about wires, grills, w/e then...
there is no point to have a speaker that could be better but worrying about amps... that's the cart before the horse so to speak
if the speaker isn't the best sounding thing out there to YOUR ears.... what's the point in amp building??? I mean unless it gets you off or something
People like to jump the gun when it comes to their systems
the 3 biggest factors in music are the speakers, source material, and room...
good source material is fairly easy to obtain now adays... so just g o buy some CDs
now speakers... we all know that these make all the difference to our ears... swap out that PHL 1120 with a Seas and you will instantly notice that the PHL for midrange is far more dynamic, clear, and accurate... now try to play that PHL at 80hz... and bam the PHL sucks
first thing all of you should worry about is getting the optimal speaker system (all the money should go here until you can't posssibly get any better to your ears)
once you get that the best you can do .... then look into things like room acoustics
how to make that speaker that you loved so much sound the best it can...
ONCE THIS IS TAKEN CARE OF (read as... this step is probably when you're in your 50s).... then it's time to take care of the amplifiers... and optimize them for those speakers that you love
then... lastly.... worry about wires, grills, w/e then...
there is no point to have a speaker that could be better but worrying about amps... that's the cart before the horse so to speak
if the speaker isn't the best sounding thing out there to YOUR ears.... what's the point in amp building??? I mean unless it gets you off or something
rnrss said:
It is not simple or obvious. And invoking laws of physics without considering all the physics is a sham.
If you are happy in your dead-end alley, then that is fine as long as you enjoy the music... but insisting that anyone who isn't there with you is out-to-lunch is just not right.
BTW. Nelson is widely copied, and as i said, builds some of the best behemoth's available. He even uses one on the bottom of his system at home... but he seems to prefer to use the little 5 W low damping amp on his mains.
http://www.passlabs.com/amplifiers/x1000.htm
http://www.firstwatt.com/products.htm
dave
Audiophilenoob said:
I'll agree with the room, and the source (althou CDs as source are still not up to analog -- good vinyl or mastertapes wup em)
Speakers can add very different falvours to the system, but i still hold that as part of the system (where everything is important & synergy is critical) they are less critical than what comes before.
dave
Round, like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel.
Never ending or beginning,
On an ever spinning wheel.....
Like a wheel within a wheel.
Never ending or beginning,
On an ever spinning wheel.....
planet10 said:
digital on CD's produces far less SQ problems than vinyl... but w/e floats your boat...
Speakers are more important that amplifiers.... simply put they make the biggest difference in how that power is heard...
from speaker to speaker is a HUGE difference... and I've to date only been able to hear very very minor differences in amplifier topographies
planet10 said:
Hey big surprize there are a lot of people building bigger better boat anchors out here everyday!!
My little heathkit amp has a damping of 60 and compared to the kind of sound I am talking about here it totally s**** at any wattage... I am surely NOT going to buy 1000 more watts of the same crap.... you could give me any of those amps and i would chuck on the shelf with all the other low damping amps I have LOL and I am serious!
Like I said anyone can build low df amps.... and if you like nasty colored peaky music and poor imaging a low df amp is just thing for you, enjoy!!
Nothing more than 80% snake tonic... all th echeapest amps on th emarket today have low damping factor nothing special there man! save your money go to radio shack!
I am hardly saying that anyone who does not have a system like mine is somehow lacking, but I am saying that here are fundamental principles that determine quality, damping being one of them and if you want to sit there in denial that is fine with me as lng as you are happy...
A sham??? Really???
Exactly what physics do you feel I have not accounted for?
Just because we disagree?
Well then I will agree to disagree with you and I will be happy in my dead end alley and you can be happy in your dreamers lala land of fanciful listening...
In any case I enjoy what my design principle yield and I am happy you enjoy yours...
Hi all
This is an entertaining thread 😉
rnrss, if I may, when you do this resistor demonstration thing,
I asume right that you adjust the listening volume to be equal
with and without resistors? And that you redesign your speakers
and crossovers ( assuming you use passive crossovers, that is )
so they are suitable for amps with low damping factor?
Just wondering...
cheers 😉
This is an entertaining thread 😉
rnrss, if I may, when you do this resistor demonstration thing,
I asume right that you adjust the listening volume to be equal
with and without resistors? And that you redesign your speakers
and crossovers ( assuming you use passive crossovers, that is )
so they are suitable for amps with low damping factor?
Just wondering...
cheers 😉
slowmotion said:
Yes it is entertaining but it is taking up to much of my time frankly and that will change in the very near future...
yeh you are right and it is a bit** to do... take two people actually one to switch the music on and off while turning the volume knob thats indented and me on the switch or vice versa... good observation, glad I gotcha thinking about it 🙂
No an ideal source is zero ohms all things considered... neg Z amps not with standing... The holy grail of amps would be to design one with zero ohms output impedance...
The lower the output impedance the better the ability for the amp to control the movement of the speaker.... and of course the wire that you use between your amp and speakers adds to the amp impedance in the damping formula and that is why people notice a difference when going to big wire with lower resistance...
For matching amp to passive crossover its not critical and others will disagree but as long as you do not get rediculous with with wire cap and ind you will not run into any mismatching issues... and in most cases you will notice significant impreovement with damping, moreso on speakers with a higher xover on the bass unit than the ones down at 200-300 hz...
One mod I would recommend to any one wold be to measure or have your coils measured and then wind new ones with number 12 or bigger wire if possible using adequately sized iron or ferrite cores to allow for less wire footage to be used... and the only coils that are really important to do this with is series coils, especially the bass...
Yeh what I should really do is throw a little circuit together that automatically keeps the volume the same to insure that no one cheats... but so far eveyone that I have done that test with was honest with me and agreed that high damping was significantly more transparent, less peaky/dippy, and had considerably better image...
Build a super High damp system including xover and you will never look back!...
I stumbled across it by accident when I did a quad amp active crossover system and hear a bass driver run direct off of an amp 6 feet away with awg10... Thats an eye opener! and an ear opener!!
Yeh its a really cheap way to hear what damping does for you and if you have reasonably good ears you wont even need to do ab testing it really hits you in the face...
RNSS
I also don't see that you have proven that damping factor is the one great factor that determines amp quality. You mention a couple of amps you happen to own that have lower DF. You say they sound bad.
You mention one amp that you own that has high DF that you say sounds good.
Possibly the bad amps sound bad for reasons in addition than low DF
Possibly the good amp sounds good for reasons other than high DF
With such a small sample nothing is proven. I'll bet SY has a fancy latin term for this logic assumption.
I think the reason people seem sceptical is that the more you look into audio, the more unlikely it seems that there is one thing that determines good sound quality-especially a measurement. It seems to be a big messy playground that has lots of factors that can affect the sound. For example, some claim that the SET tubes amps are the only way to go- yet there are some very poor sounding ones.
Are you basing your opinion that DF is the Holy Grail on other amps that have high DF or only on your Crown (which is not universally considered a particularly great amp I don't think- although I don't know every Crown model) Maybe you just like how your Crown amp sounds and it has nothing to do w/ damping factor.
Some people that don't agree with you are willing to trade what you seem to prefer for something that they prefer more. That's just their trade- off.
I don't see why not having made speakers makes Carlos unqualified to comment on speakers. As he pointed out - you don't make amps yet feel that you are an expert on them. Hiow is that different?
I also don't see that you have proven that damping factor is the one great factor that determines amp quality. You mention a couple of amps you happen to own that have lower DF. You say they sound bad.
You mention one amp that you own that has high DF that you say sounds good.
Possibly the bad amps sound bad for reasons in addition than low DF
Possibly the good amp sounds good for reasons other than high DF
With such a small sample nothing is proven. I'll bet SY has a fancy latin term for this logic assumption.
I think the reason people seem sceptical is that the more you look into audio, the more unlikely it seems that there is one thing that determines good sound quality-especially a measurement. It seems to be a big messy playground that has lots of factors that can affect the sound. For example, some claim that the SET tubes amps are the only way to go- yet there are some very poor sounding ones.
Are you basing your opinion that DF is the Holy Grail on other amps that have high DF or only on your Crown (which is not universally considered a particularly great amp I don't think- although I don't know every Crown model) Maybe you just like how your Crown amp sounds and it has nothing to do w/ damping factor.
Some people that don't agree with you are willing to trade what you seem to prefer for something that they prefer more. That's just their trade- off.
I don't see why not having made speakers makes Carlos unqualified to comment on speakers. As he pointed out - you don't make amps yet feel that you are an expert on them. Hiow is that different?
Nothing fancy, just selection bias and the sort of pareidolia rampant in the audiophile community.
Audiophilenoob said:
You seem to ignore the most important: the source component.
What are CDs for if the CDP throws it all away?
Two CDPs can sound as different as two speakers, and there are no speakers that can make the miracle of correcting the trash that comes from the previous components in the system chain.
Audiophilenoob said:
Here comes the deam SQ.🙄
Did you learn that in school? Whazzat? I don't know what's your definition of sound quality.
It seems to be just POWER.
Yeah, I was born deeply in the vinyl era, and never left it.
The problem is that most people never heard a decent vinyl source.
For most a cheap elyptical diamond needle is already high-end.
I repeat: don't start building the house by the roof, it will fall apart.
Good speakers with bad ancilliaries sound horrible.
A good CDP or turntable/phonopre is always an upgrade for ANY system, independent of the speakers you use.
PS: I don't care if you believe me or not, but at least let's not un-educate those who read this thread.
Some things can't be ignored.
Although I realize I'm on the loudpeaker forum.
Variac said:
🙁 The more this goes on the more confused and disheartened i become. Second guessing what i should buy. WHAT SHOULD I BUY ?! This is going absolutely no where! Its again becoming obvious that its all about PERSONAL PREFERENCE regardless of absolutes - specs, wire, DF, wattage, input gain vs S/N ratios BAHHHHHHHH
Its no wonder companys have to hire professionals liars. Without superfluous far reaching BS statements consumers would buy Akai and Pyramid audio everytime since its 50 price points cheaper then anything else. 😡 I give up. I am going to finish building the damned sub boxes and sit and stare at how much money i have spent and gotten nothing. I have become the emporer in new clothes.
Variac said:
Variac, I did make speakers, for my other systems, and for many years.
I just didn't make them for my main system because I was (and am) always VERY satisfied with my Epos.
And to improve on them I would have to spend a big amount of money just for some good drivers.
I have other priorities and responsibilities in my life, and I don't melt my money on audio.😀
Anyway, I'm building a pair of 3-way speakers, with Seas drivers I have for more than 10 years, and a pair of ribbon tweeters I'm still waiting to arrive.
It's not anything really expensive, but let's see where they go: to my main system or to my bedroom.😀
It's not easy to improve on the Epos without spending big money on some of the best woofers and tweeters, and a very well build enclosure.
But a big part of a speaker design is on the crossover, which can make it sing or make it fall apart.
carlosfm said:
You seem to ignore the most important: the source component.
What are CDs for if the CDP throws it all away?
Two CDPs can sound as different as two speakers, and there are no speakers that can make the miracle of correcting the trash that comes from the previous components in the system chain.
Here comes the deam SQ.🙄
Did you learn that in school? Whazzat? I don't know what's your definition of sound quality.
It seems to be just POWER.
Yeah, I was born deeply in the vinyl era, and never left it.
The problem is that most people never heard a decent vinyl source.
For most a cheap elyptical diamond needle is already high-end.
I repeat: don't start building the house by the roof, it will fall apart.
Good speakers with bad ancilliaries sound horrible.
A good CDP or turntable/phonopre is always an upgrade for ANY system, independent of the speakers you use.
PS: I don't care if you believe me or not, but at least let's not un-educate those who read this thread.
Some things can't be ignored.
Although I realize I'm on the loudpeaker forum.
yes carlos... POWER is my definition 🙄
that's why I'm using simple chip amps and a Krell Class A clone
I have a great CD player... it's called a fully digital line in from a hard drive....... absolutely no "CD player" or "record" player can even touch the complete transparency of an integrated system... I've tried... really I have
I do direct full source rips from CDs... no SQ degredation at all...
A phonopreamp huh??? good upgrade huh?
actually again I would like to see proof of this.... Simple isn't really better...
source components are important... but you over exaggerate things A LOT.... the difference between good sources is so absurdly minimal when compared to changing out speakers (I personally have a fantastic preamplifier... as I like to adjust my volume via remote.... my preamp is fantastic...)
as long as the amps, preamps, and everything in line of the signal is well built there should be very little audible difference between the two... trust me... I have a $7999 N.E.W. Class A amplifier sitting in that living room and I could hardly tell the difference when I did AB testing with my QSC POS amp...
are you saying I'm not audiophile enough??? hmmmm
rather bold statement I would say 🙄
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