Quite true DF96, but I hope you see my point. Dolby, RIAA, NAB, FM, etc all do work. They work well for the reason you pointed out.
It has been my experience that most of the gear that the audio signal passes thru does "something" to the signal. I see a lot of odd order distortion, for example. Getting rid of those changes isn't going to be easy, especially when we don't know exactly what they are. But if a magic box inline artfully masks some of the changes, might we not enjoy that? Isn't that the point of such devices, to make it sound better?
I know nothing of Maxwell's demons, only of Maxwell's silver hammer.
It has been my experience that most of the gear that the audio signal passes thru does "something" to the signal. I see a lot of odd order distortion, for example. Getting rid of those changes isn't going to be easy, especially when we don't know exactly what they are. But if a magic box inline artfully masks some of the changes, might we not enjoy that? Isn't that the point of such devices, to make it sound better?
I know nothing of Maxwell's demons, only of Maxwell's silver hammer.
Masking, yes. Hiding a problem by introducing a bigger distortion (yet which sounds nicer) is fine. Just don't pretend, as some seem to, that the 'quality' has been improved. It's like the difference between cleaning your house, and just spraying some air freshener. Both leave your house smelling clean and fresh, but only one actually removes the dirt.
Hi,
So we need a re-mastering processor. I would suggest that removing odd HD is next to impossible, but adding even HD that masks the odd is possible.
I would also suggest a decent EQ (Cello Palette style) and a way to reduce channel separation at high frequencies and increase it at low frequencies and probably a dynamic range expander (all adjustable and bypassable), but there are those that will argue that it's "Not HiFi", even if the result resembles the original acoustic event by far more than the recording unprocessed...
Perhaps. Let me ask another question. What if the "magic box" restores something which is missing, not exactly, but in a way that due to the limited resolution of human hearing can be mistaken for the real thing?
I personally prefer Hegels Daemons myself and I one had a poor kitten that encountered a physicist named Schroedinger...
Ciao T
So we need a re-mastering processor. I would suggest that removing odd HD is next to impossible, but adding even HD that masks the odd is possible.
I would also suggest a decent EQ (Cello Palette style) and a way to reduce channel separation at high frequencies and increase it at low frequencies and probably a dynamic range expander (all adjustable and bypassable), but there are those that will argue that it's "Not HiFi", even if the result resembles the original acoustic event by far more than the recording unprocessed...
Perhaps. Let me ask another question. What if the "magic box" restores something which is missing, not exactly, but in a way that due to the limited resolution of human hearing can be mistaken for the real thing?
Wikipedia said:
I personally prefer Hegels Daemons myself and I one had a poor kitten that encountered a physicist named Schroedinger...
Ciao T
That's a good analogy, I like it. But let me propose another:
What if all you could purchase to eat was processed food? Dried, frozen, tinned. No farm fresh or local grown at all. Would you want to bring the flavor back to life a bit? Maybe some salt and pepper, a little vinegar or hot sauce could will make it more palatable. Since the processed stuff isn't "busting with flavor" like fresh food, you might want to spice it up a bit.
A lot of recorded music can be that way. Processed, tinned, dry and lacking life.
That is basically what I'm talking about, yes. It's fraught with problems, but that is the basic idea.
Hi Pano,
Yes, but do consider your standing.
I might advance such notions (with impunity), but I am not sure you should.
Some locals here may get out the pitchforks and try to burn the Wytch, if you get my meaning...
Ciao T
Yes, but do consider your standing.
I might advance such notions (with impunity), but I am not sure you should.
Some locals here may get out the pitchforks and try to burn the Wytch, if you get my meaning...
Ciao T
Thanks for you concern TL. 
But I've already outed myself here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/pano/620-more-distortion-yes-please.html
I'm not too worried about the villagers with their torches and pitchforks. I don't think anyone reads the blogs anyway.
But I've already outed myself here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/pano/620-more-distortion-yes-please.htmlI'm not too worried about the villagers with their torches and pitchforks. I don't think anyone reads the blogs anyway.
Thanks for you concern TL.
I'm not too worried about the villagers with their torches and pitchforks. I don't think anyone reads the blogs anyway.
Supernormal stimulus is relevant, I think. Marilyn Monroe was not saftig: She had a tiny waist.
Supernormal Stimuli - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So yes, certain kinds of distortion could be attractive to some people, or - and this is your point, I think - might make up for deficiencies of presentation.
Compared to live music reproduced music has lots of deficiencies....
For instance, I like listening to big music and in my room the ratio of direct to indirect sound is usually deficient compared to the live performance. I can improve my home listening experience by adding reverberance through additional speakers and cutting the level of direct sound. Strictly speaking, hi-fi it ain't.
I dunno. With nice delays and roll offs I got to use the room and it sounded pretty good. I miss it. I gave away my small speakers but I'm going to make some more and do it again. Maybe this time with decorrelation filters. But strictly speaking, it won't be hi-fi.
This may go a long way toward explaining my attraction to beer bottles. And I thought it was just the content.
Hi,
I would argue that the object should be to ensure that distortion that has high audibility is minimised to levels well below audibility, while we can safely ignore certain amounts of low audibility distortion.
Using this as design maxim I end up with a system that has high THD by conventional measures, however not because I deliberately added distortion, but as direct result of minimising high order HD and related factors.
Of course, this has been known since the days of D.E.L. Shorter and Olson, or in other words for six decades.
Ciao T
Thanks for you concern TL.
I would argue that the object should be to ensure that distortion that has high audibility is minimised to levels well below audibility, while we can safely ignore certain amounts of low audibility distortion.
Using this as design maxim I end up with a system that has high THD by conventional measures, however not because I deliberately added distortion, but as direct result of minimising high order HD and related factors.
Of course, this has been known since the days of D.E.L. Shorter and Olson, or in other words for six decades.
Ciao T
Yes, of course, but few would try to pretend that adding seasoning actually restores freshness to the food. Pursuing your analogy a little further, what if some people liked food which tastes just like food? I only discovered how sweet carrots are, when I stopped swamping them with salt! Similarly, I found that milk tastes sweet when I stopped putting sugar in my tea and coffee.Pano said:
If food was like audio, people would claim that adding sugar to coffee makes it better coffee, more coffee-like, when in fact all it is doing is masking the bitter taste which some find unpleasant. The reality is that there is an aspect of real coffee which they don't like, so they hide it. They like the taste of coffee+sugar, but then kid themselves that this is just coffee. They then think that there is something strange about people who genuinely like the flavour of coffee(+nothing), so they claim that coffee has the sweetness removed by processing so they are just restoring what was lost. They claim that their coffee+sugar is more authentic coffee.
Of course, once you get into the habit of adding lots of X (whether X is salt, sugar or low-order distortion combined with some LF boost and HF roll-off) then you become accustomed to X and miss it when it is no longer present. You declare that relatively unprocessed food/music is lacking in taste/life and therefore boring.
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