Hi,
No. find the C of G of the whole subchassis / arm / platter.
Fit a spring at this point noting it does not provide any centering.
For an unbalanced subchassis, e.g. a too heavy arm, a solution is a
small diameter tension spring behind the arm, usually at ~ 60 degrees.
The resonant frequency should be right if the springs hold up the weight.
/sreten.
No. find the C of G of the whole subchassis / arm / platter.
Fit a spring at this point noting it does not provide any centering.
For an unbalanced subchassis, e.g. a too heavy arm, a solution is a
small diameter tension spring behind the arm, usually at ~ 60 degrees.
The resonant frequency should be right if the springs hold up the weight.
/sreten.Hi,
For a too heavy arm add a coil tension spring behind the arm between
the top plate and the subchassis. By varying the angle you can lift /
pull across the subchassis. Mainly you want to lift. Any angle will also
affect the dynamics of the subchassis (sometimes for the better).
For the overall chassis you can add a tension spring between the top
plate and the subchassis at its C of G and this will barely effect the
other springs influences on subchassis dynamics, but will allow a
higher overall weight the outboard springs can support.
Alternatively the centre spring can go between the base and the
subchassis in compression as used in the Logic DM101 :
(note here the gantry from the top plate rather than using the base)
http://www.vinylengine.com/library_model.php?make=Logic&selected_model=DM 101
Here the main spring is located co-incident with the main bearing, but
generally it would not be, it would be between the bearing and the arm
unless a counterweight for the arm mass is fitted on the subchassis.
You have to work out what is going on for each individual case, the
layout and rate of each spring ,and how this affects dynamics of
the subchassis.
(the first version of the DM101 only used the peripheral springs,
arranged as V shaped pairs to the subchassis. The consequence
was a very high subchassis rotational mode, so the springs were
softened, the V angle increased and the main centre spring added
to hold it all up.
Simply by setting it up and pushing up at various point of the
subchassis (with say a rubber ended pencil) you can find the
point that is dynamically balanced, apply the helper spring here.
/sreten.
For a too heavy arm add a coil tension spring behind the arm between
the top plate and the subchassis. By varying the angle you can lift /
pull across the subchassis. Mainly you want to lift. Any angle will also
affect the dynamics of the subchassis (sometimes for the better).
For the overall chassis you can add a tension spring between the top
plate and the subchassis at its C of G and this will barely effect the
other springs influences on subchassis dynamics, but will allow a
higher overall weight the outboard springs can support.
Alternatively the centre spring can go between the base and the
subchassis in compression as used in the Logic DM101 :
(note here the gantry from the top plate rather than using the base)
http://www.vinylengine.com/library_model.php?make=Logic&selected_model=DM 101
Here the main spring is located co-incident with the main bearing, but
generally it would not be, it would be between the bearing and the arm
unless a counterweight for the arm mass is fitted on the subchassis.
You have to work out what is going on for each individual case, the
layout and rate of each spring ,and how this affects dynamics of
the subchassis.
(the first version of the DM101 only used the peripheral springs,
arranged as V shaped pairs to the subchassis. The consequence
was a very high subchassis rotational mode, so the springs were
softened, the V angle increased and the main centre spring added
to hold it all up.
Simply by setting it up and pushing up at various point of the
subchassis (with say a rubber ended pencil) you can find the
point that is dynamically balanced, apply the helper spring here.
/sreten.Ariston RD11
I apologize if I'm doing this incorrectly! I'm trying to respond to ATAVID's original posting regaring the Ariston RD11 (s) 'table.
I have 2 Aristons. Once is 1) a RD11s # 003120 (per the label under the platter AND the logo above the power switch) and the other is 2) a RD11 # 003947 (according to the label under the platter - but the logo says RD11s).
Here is my question - for those of you who have RD11 or RD11s 'tables please describe the nature of the spindle shaft and bearing? Why? Because my bearing/shaft arrangements are different. Table #1 has a spindle shaft with a concaved end riding on a loose ball bearing. Table #2 (RD11/RD11s) has a spindle end that tapers end - but definitely flat on the bottom (not concaved at all) w/ a bearing that does not come out of the spindle well. It could be frozen in place - or I suppose it is intentionally locked in place.
Cannot anybody comment on this difference??
I apologize if I'm doing this incorrectly! I'm trying to respond to ATAVID's original posting regaring the Ariston RD11 (s) 'table.
I have 2 Aristons. Once is 1) a RD11s # 003120 (per the label under the platter AND the logo above the power switch) and the other is 2) a RD11 # 003947 (according to the label under the platter - but the logo says RD11s).
Here is my question - for those of you who have RD11 or RD11s 'tables please describe the nature of the spindle shaft and bearing? Why? Because my bearing/shaft arrangements are different. Table #1 has a spindle shaft with a concaved end riding on a loose ball bearing. Table #2 (RD11/RD11s) has a spindle end that tapers end - but definitely flat on the bottom (not concaved at all) w/ a bearing that does not come out of the spindle well. It could be frozen in place - or I suppose it is intentionally locked in place.
Cannot anybody comment on this difference??
Torens 147.My RD11S has the captive ball at the bottom of bearing shaft and a flat spindle tip with the smallest bearing dint in it.
Sreten,what an interesting idea.
I never realized that there were turntables out there that used tension springs instead of the more common compression springs.It always seemed like they had more potential for a more stable suspension than the compression spring setup to me.
I do remember the Logic turntable,but of course never saw its suspension.Back in those days the undersides were not discussed (or photographed)as much as the sound quality,here in Australia at least.
So just to clarify,are you suggesting two options for helping the subchassis ride higher without overtightening the existing springs mercilessly.
1) Fit a short coil tension spring between the top of the subchassis and the underside of the top plate at its CofG,effectively pulling up the subchassis.
2) Alternatively fit a compression spring to the underside of the subchassis to push against the bottom plate at the CofG,thus helping carry some of the subchassis weight.An obvious place would seem to be a spring around the bearing housing pushing against the plinth cross bracing plate.(no idea what sonic effect that would have though).
Have i got that right???
Sreten,what an interesting idea.
I never realized that there were turntables out there that used tension springs instead of the more common compression springs.It always seemed like they had more potential for a more stable suspension than the compression spring setup to me.
I do remember the Logic turntable,but of course never saw its suspension.Back in those days the undersides were not discussed (or photographed)as much as the sound quality,here in Australia at least.
So just to clarify,are you suggesting two options for helping the subchassis ride higher without overtightening the existing springs mercilessly.
1) Fit a short coil tension spring between the top of the subchassis and the underside of the top plate at its CofG,effectively pulling up the subchassis.
2) Alternatively fit a compression spring to the underside of the subchassis to push against the bottom plate at the CofG,thus helping carry some of the subchassis weight.An obvious place would seem to be a spring around the bearing housing pushing against the plinth cross bracing plate.(no idea what sonic effect that would have though).
Have i got that right???
Torens147. I think the serial number is 011555.
I purchased the TT new in June 1985.
Im not 100% sure about the number because the sticker that was attached to the top plate was removed by the guy who painted my plinth in high gloss black several years ago.That number is the one i have recorded in the owners manual,so i think its correct.Cheers
I purchased the TT new in June 1985.
Im not 100% sure about the number because the sticker that was attached to the top plate was removed by the guy who painted my plinth in high gloss black several years ago.That number is the one i have recorded in the owners manual,so i think its correct.Cheers
Well,i've been doing the rounds trying to find some suitable springs.Its amazing how difficult it is to buy something so apparently simple.
Ive tried looking for a compression spring to fit under the subchassis(all way too stiff) and for a tension spring for above the subchassis.Trouble is i need a very short one for this and short ones that i could find are all too fat.I could cut one down i suppose,but it all seems a bit tacky.
I have been able to get a couple of places who will analyse my old springs through their computerised machinery and then manufacture the same or slightly stronger springs for me.They will cost me about $120 AUS for 6 springs(3 spares) .Pretty expensive, but i may not have any choice in the end.
I have also ordered some Linn springs and rubber washers from a UK Ebay seller....a lot cheaper than $120 if they work.
Does any one know if there is a place that got hold of Ariston spare parts(springs) when they closed the turntable business?
I was looking in my Ariston manual and i notice that Ariston offered 3 different strength suspension springs.My deck was fitted with the Rega RB300 by the dealer i bought it from so he fitted two of the optional stronger springs.I dont know if the black Linn springs i ordered are going to be strong enough to carry the weight.
Since the Linn and the Ariston are almost identical i was wondering how Linn decks cope with heavy arms like the Ittok. Did Linn bring out heavier springs,or do Linn decks just have the nut screwed right up to carry the extra weight.
I could do that with mine i suppose, but i think that does not allow the spring to work optimally(i could be wrong about that,please correct me if that is so).
For now i'll just wait for the Linn springs to arrive,fit them and take it from there.
Ive tried looking for a compression spring to fit under the subchassis(all way too stiff) and for a tension spring for above the subchassis.Trouble is i need a very short one for this and short ones that i could find are all too fat.I could cut one down i suppose,but it all seems a bit tacky.
I have been able to get a couple of places who will analyse my old springs through their computerised machinery and then manufacture the same or slightly stronger springs for me.They will cost me about $120 AUS for 6 springs(3 spares) .Pretty expensive, but i may not have any choice in the end.
I have also ordered some Linn springs and rubber washers from a UK Ebay seller....a lot cheaper than $120 if they work.
Does any one know if there is a place that got hold of Ariston spare parts(springs) when they closed the turntable business?
I was looking in my Ariston manual and i notice that Ariston offered 3 different strength suspension springs.My deck was fitted with the Rega RB300 by the dealer i bought it from so he fitted two of the optional stronger springs.I dont know if the black Linn springs i ordered are going to be strong enough to carry the weight.
Since the Linn and the Ariston are almost identical i was wondering how Linn decks cope with heavy arms like the Ittok. Did Linn bring out heavier springs,or do Linn decks just have the nut screwed right up to carry the extra weight.
I could do that with mine i suppose, but i think that does not allow the spring to work optimally(i could be wrong about that,please correct me if that is so).
For now i'll just wait for the Linn springs to arrive,fit them and take it from there.
ATAVID: If you're really into upgrading/improving your RD11s, take at look at Stuart Mitchell's offerings on Ebay. I've upgrade 2 - RD11s and one Thorens 147MKII tables with various kits and the like.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/SRM-TECH-Audio-Product
You can also reach Stuart directly at "stuart.mitchell@btconnect.com".
Good luck.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/SRM-TECH-Audio-Product
You can also reach Stuart directly at "stuart.mitchell@btconnect.com".
Good luck.
Not a lot of answers forthcoming on this forum,except from yourself Sreten and Kevinkr.
Torens 147,i've already done all but one of the mods that SRM have in their kit.
I dont have the motor bearing mod,but i'm not too sure i would want to do it anyway.In my experience bearing motors have always been more noisy than bush/sleeve motors anyway,unless something has changed.Admittedly,sleeve/bush motors have other limitations in terms of precision and longevity,but thats an acceptable tradeoff if it means less noise.
Torens 147, any possibility of you posting a couple of pics of the underside of both of your decks. I'm very curious about the difference between the early Linn,the Ariston RD11 and the Ariston RD11S.Looking at images on the net its apparent that they are so close to identical in design and materials its not funny.Poor old Hamish must have been really pissed when Ivor turned up with the LP12.
What i am interested in is trying to find out which model Ariston the RD11S subchassis originally came from.It must have been an earlier model deck, as my RD11S manual shows the underside of a deck with the lean version(no additional armboard tacked on)of the suchassis mounted slightly on a diagonal.I would like to know what deck it was.
Torens 147,i've already done all but one of the mods that SRM have in their kit.
I dont have the motor bearing mod,but i'm not too sure i would want to do it anyway.In my experience bearing motors have always been more noisy than bush/sleeve motors anyway,unless something has changed.Admittedly,sleeve/bush motors have other limitations in terms of precision and longevity,but thats an acceptable tradeoff if it means less noise.
Torens 147, any possibility of you posting a couple of pics of the underside of both of your decks. I'm very curious about the difference between the early Linn,the Ariston RD11 and the Ariston RD11S.Looking at images on the net its apparent that they are so close to identical in design and materials its not funny.Poor old Hamish must have been really pissed when Ivor turned up with the LP12.
What i am interested in is trying to find out which model Ariston the RD11S subchassis originally came from.It must have been an earlier model deck, as my RD11S manual shows the underside of a deck with the lean version(no additional armboard tacked on)of the suchassis mounted slightly on a diagonal.I would like to know what deck it was.
Attachments
torens147 said:ATAVID: If you're really into upgrading/improving your RD11s, take at look at Stuart Mitchell's offerings on Ebay. I've upgrade 2 - RD11s and one Thorens 147MKII tables with various kits and the like.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/SRM-TECH-Audio-Product
You can also reach Stuart directly at "stuart.mitchell@btconnect.com".
Good luck.
Can you recheck that link, ebay uk indicates that this url as posted is not valid. (Returns "Sorry this shop does not exist.")
Just an interesting update.I took my original base board to a plastics(acrylic)machine shop yesterday to have a 10mm acrylic version made up.
I am also getting a new round armboard made up out of acrylic as well. I showed the guy the original armboard and he said it was made of some cheap aerated nylon material(cant recall the name he used) Its only endearing feature apparently being its lightness.He reckons it is prone to warping when under load.That confirms my findings as when i checked mine on glass it was warped about 1-2mm.
The shop owner told me he has made several dozen parts for audiophiles over the years,mainly acrylic platters,plinths and armboards.
He also showed me some all white colour composite material with a tough thin top and bottom layer and some kind of aerated solid foam like centre substance which he had been told by other audio customers had good sonic qualities.He suggested i try an armboard out of the material . At $50 a time i didnt have the inclination to order two armboards at this stage,but its might be worth a shot in the future.
Has anyone tried an acrylic armboard on an Ariston? Is it an audible improvement?
I am also getting a new round armboard made up out of acrylic as well. I showed the guy the original armboard and he said it was made of some cheap aerated nylon material(cant recall the name he used) Its only endearing feature apparently being its lightness.He reckons it is prone to warping when under load.That confirms my findings as when i checked mine on glass it was warped about 1-2mm.
The shop owner told me he has made several dozen parts for audiophiles over the years,mainly acrylic platters,plinths and armboards.
He also showed me some all white colour composite material with a tough thin top and bottom layer and some kind of aerated solid foam like centre substance which he had been told by other audio customers had good sonic qualities.He suggested i try an armboard out of the material . At $50 a time i didnt have the inclination to order two armboards at this stage,but its might be worth a shot in the future.
Has anyone tried an acrylic armboard on an Ariston? Is it an audible improvement?
Link to SRM/TECH
Here is the link.
http://stores.ebay.com/SRM-TECH-Audio-Products
The proprietor is Stuart Mitchell - located in Biggleswade, Bedfordshire, United Kingdom. Cool!
(I'm not sure how I got the link wrong the last time. Anyhow this is it!)
Here is the link.
http://stores.ebay.com/SRM-TECH-Audio-Products
The proprietor is Stuart Mitchell - located in Biggleswade, Bedfordshire, United Kingdom. Cool!
(I'm not sure how I got the link wrong the last time. Anyhow this is it!)
I have an older RD 11s that I worked up to a new performance level.
I looked at what was done with the Linn, and went from there.
First, i added corner braces on the Chassis. I used Baltic birch ply for its lightness and strength. Three braces plus a cutout brace for the tonearm corner.
Next, I epoxy welded a tension screw using a T-nut and stainless steel screw to the top plate in the corner closest to the motor. This goes through the corner brace to provide tension. Linn does this to drain motor vibrations into the plinth.
Then I went around the table, and retightened all the screws on the suspension, top plate, and chassis. Metal to metal were very tight, metal to wood tight as possible. Many had come loose over the years.
For the sub chassis. I epoxied two metal u-channels along the length, leaving room for the springs and trying to maintain the same balance. This was to aid in stiffening up the plate without adding too much weight. This also had the benefit of deadening the ringing in the sub chassis.
The springs were replaced with new Linn springs and grommets. They fit perfectly, and also support the Rega RB 300, with no problems.
A thrust pad was added, and a new ceramic bearing was added the the bearing well.
I re-routed the p-clip to the electronic support plate, to better support the tonearm cable.
Finally motor was oiled and motor supports tightened. Also cut a new hole for the tonearm exit.
Last the Rega was rewired with Cardas 33 gauge wire, a proper ground was added, and RCA's were replaced with Neutrik.
The end result, is a totally transformed table. It has a great bounce. It sounds nothing like the old RD 11's. Gone is the overly warm presence of the old table. The bass is much more defined from the soundstage, kick drum is clearly defined and plucked accoustic bass is physical.
One surprise, normally the RB 300 has to be lightly attached to the armboard. After the mods, I could tune the bass by how tight I bolted the arm. I had to tighten it much more than on the P3 to get it to sing. Otherwise, it sounded too plummy.
Overall it took about a week, with most of the time waiting for glues and epoxies to dry. Well worth the time invested.
Hope that helps.
Drofo
I looked at what was done with the Linn, and went from there.
First, i added corner braces on the Chassis. I used Baltic birch ply for its lightness and strength. Three braces plus a cutout brace for the tonearm corner.
Next, I epoxy welded a tension screw using a T-nut and stainless steel screw to the top plate in the corner closest to the motor. This goes through the corner brace to provide tension. Linn does this to drain motor vibrations into the plinth.
Then I went around the table, and retightened all the screws on the suspension, top plate, and chassis. Metal to metal were very tight, metal to wood tight as possible. Many had come loose over the years.
For the sub chassis. I epoxied two metal u-channels along the length, leaving room for the springs and trying to maintain the same balance. This was to aid in stiffening up the plate without adding too much weight. This also had the benefit of deadening the ringing in the sub chassis.
The springs were replaced with new Linn springs and grommets. They fit perfectly, and also support the Rega RB 300, with no problems.
A thrust pad was added, and a new ceramic bearing was added the the bearing well.
I re-routed the p-clip to the electronic support plate, to better support the tonearm cable.
Finally motor was oiled and motor supports tightened. Also cut a new hole for the tonearm exit.
Last the Rega was rewired with Cardas 33 gauge wire, a proper ground was added, and RCA's were replaced with Neutrik.
The end result, is a totally transformed table. It has a great bounce. It sounds nothing like the old RD 11's. Gone is the overly warm presence of the old table. The bass is much more defined from the soundstage, kick drum is clearly defined and plucked accoustic bass is physical.
One surprise, normally the RB 300 has to be lightly attached to the armboard. After the mods, I could tune the bass by how tight I bolted the arm. I had to tighten it much more than on the P3 to get it to sing. Otherwise, it sounded too plummy.
Overall it took about a week, with most of the time waiting for glues and epoxies to dry. Well worth the time invested.
Hope that helps.
Drofo
Thanks Drofo,i was beginning to feel i was the only RD11s owner left in the world.
I'm curious about the setup you have with the T bolt in the motor corner of the top plate,i've not heard of that one before.Dont suppose you can post a pic showing it???,I'm not sure how you've done it.
My Linn springs/bushes arrived today and thankfully they are much more supportive of the weight than the old Ariston springs were.You're right,they fit perfectly.
Did you get the ceramic bearing pad by itself ,or as part of one of those upgrade kits.I want to get one,but not all the other bits.I'm assuming you are talking about a pad that fits between the tip of the sub platter shaft and the captive ball in the bottom of the bearing well.Is that right, have you somehow been able to replace the captive ball bearing with a ceramic version ?How is it done?
I'm curious about the setup you have with the T bolt in the motor corner of the top plate,i've not heard of that one before.Dont suppose you can post a pic showing it???,I'm not sure how you've done it.
My Linn springs/bushes arrived today and thankfully they are much more supportive of the weight than the old Ariston springs were.You're right,they fit perfectly.
Did you get the ceramic bearing pad by itself ,or as part of one of those upgrade kits.I want to get one,but not all the other bits.I'm assuming you are talking about a pad that fits between the tip of the sub platter shaft and the captive ball in the bottom of the bearing well.Is that right, have you somehow been able to replace the captive ball bearing with a ceramic version ?How is it done?
Hi Atavid,
No, I am sure that there are still a few of us who are wringing every little ounce of performance out of these old veterans. What is surprising is how much you can actually wring out. I based my mods on the fact that since the Ariston and Linn were originally identical designs, the improvements for the Linn would work for the Ariston. There are also one or two other mods from the setup guides that I implemented as well.
In any case, I can't remember where I saw how the layout for the brace for the (motor) corner was done. I remember searching everywhere online for undercarriage photo's of LP12's. I may have found it that way. If you know anyone who has an LP12 you could get them to give you a look, or maybe request a image online.
My particular table did not have the captive bearing, so replacing it was quite easy. It was actually a good thing to do as my old bearing has definite wear that I could feel with my fingers alone. The spindle appeared fine though.
I did not buy the complete upgrade kit to get the thrust pad, just the pad itself.
Here are a few links to the LP12 and all the changes that have developed over the years. These were the basis for my mods.
http://www.n.mackie.btinternet.co.uk/linn/tlp12faq.html
http://www.vinylengine.com/linnhistory.shtml
This page also has the large setup guide (58 p.) which was quite useful.
http://tinyurl.com/2weqlq
Hope that helps.
Regards,
Drofo
No, I am sure that there are still a few of us who are wringing every little ounce of performance out of these old veterans. What is surprising is how much you can actually wring out. I based my mods on the fact that since the Ariston and Linn were originally identical designs, the improvements for the Linn would work for the Ariston. There are also one or two other mods from the setup guides that I implemented as well.
In any case, I can't remember where I saw how the layout for the brace for the (motor) corner was done. I remember searching everywhere online for undercarriage photo's of LP12's. I may have found it that way. If you know anyone who has an LP12 you could get them to give you a look, or maybe request a image online.
My particular table did not have the captive bearing, so replacing it was quite easy. It was actually a good thing to do as my old bearing has definite wear that I could feel with my fingers alone. The spindle appeared fine though.
I did not buy the complete upgrade kit to get the thrust pad, just the pad itself.
Here are a few links to the LP12 and all the changes that have developed over the years. These were the basis for my mods.
http://www.n.mackie.btinternet.co.uk/linn/tlp12faq.html
http://www.vinylengine.com/linnhistory.shtml
This page also has the large setup guide (58 p.) which was quite useful.
http://tinyurl.com/2weqlq
Hope that helps.
Regards,
Drofo
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