Reasonable Beginner Bass Amp/Speaker from a Sub and a Speaker?

[Sonce]

This is true. So, how exactly have you earned your authority in my eyes?

I have earned my authority in much more important eyes than yours. The problem is - you have to have enough knowledge of audio (which you have not) to discern who is authority and who is not.

Is this relevant to my case? You seem to suggest that I won't be able to get loud enough with a hifi speaker. I think that is not so, I don't need a lot of power and volume for my needs. And if the amp/speaker will use 10W instead of 1W of electricity for that one hour that we spend using it daily, I don't think it makes a dent in anything...

I gave you only one aspect (dB sensitivity) why pro drivers are so much better than hi-fi drivers for guitar duties. Your daughter may practice bass guitar in her bedroom with 1 W amplifier on hi-fi speakers, but one day she might want to "leave the nest" and perform publicly at the school hall concert in front of several hundreds pupils/students - using real world professional bass-combo. Then she will realize, to her horror, that her playing now sounds so much different/worse than in her bedroom. Why do you want to discourage her on her first public concert? Good quality bass-combo costs around $200 new, and much less second-hand. For yourself - you may toy with any "crazy" idea you can think of, but please give your daughter a gift (real bass-combo) she will appreciate and certainly enjoy to play with.

There are also numerous claims that the guitar speakers/drivers have a particular frequency response: I believe it but again, I prefer to shape the spectrum with an equalizer, not with the speaker. If I have a sound system that covers all frequencies, I can adjust it more or less to what is needed. It might not be the exact sound that a particular amp+cab produces but I do not care about it, as long as it sounds good and interesting.

Here is evident your deep lack of knowledge about guitar speakers. You can "clone" frequency response from guitar 12" speaker to any hi-fi speaker with an equalizer, but equalizer can not clone the temporal behavior of the dedicated guitar 12" speaker - which give that recognizable guitar sound.

On top of that, I understand that there is very good amp and cab digital simulation available pretty cheaply these days (Gnobuddy recommended the Flamma 06 pedal in multiple other threads).

Yes, Flamma 06 is terrific DSP processor which produces marvels - on dedicated guitar speakers! Not on hi-fi speakers! Simply - that is how the Flamma processors were designed!

.. It is more pleasant for me to deal with smart electronics than with big wooden boxes.

Big wooden boxes?! Fender Rumble 40 V3 bass-combo width: 16.5", height: 16.5", depth: 12". Weight: 18 lbs.

 

[Turbowatch2]

It is quite useless to explain how things work to people that don't know, if they don't want to understand.

On the internet you can refuse to understand, until the last person has left your thread. Then, for you it is time to enter a new thread and repeat the procedure. This is called trolling. People that know they are troll's have a questionable character. If you troll because you have a lack of general understanding, this is even more tragic.
If you go to a workshop and contradict anything the craftsmen say, you make an idiot out of your self and get thrown out of the door. Working people do not have time for real life troll's.
DIYS is not about contradicting anything commercial and professional. It is about knowing where you can profit from using your own time and skill's to do better, for less money or just to please your self.
The idea of DIYS is not to build things that do not work or work worse than anything you can get for less money, ready to use.
If you don't respect professionals and refuse to learn, you will be a lousy DIYS guy or "maker" as some call it.

 

[Randy Bassinga]

Randy, mastering is a very specialised task consisting of redbook related fun things like indexing tracks, setting silence between them and incorporating codes numbers to a ddp... what you are refering too is known as 'premastering' in pro circle. The aesthetic side of thing)

Krivium
Thank your clearing a misconception. I don't know why, but I always thought of mastering as getting the mix presentable as an audio signal. Authoring as packing that audio signal into tracks, silences, time code and things into a distributable format

Maybe my association of the words comes from exposure to Sonic Foundry and Adobe media creation programs as well as Boss BR800 hardware multitracker and its reviews

The BR800 is a home/portable studio. It can multi track record a number of mics and instruments, set effects and monitor the mix through the RCA outs. So manual and reviews describe the process labelled mastering. Where the overall effects and tuning are set for outputting the final stereo mix to another internal track or DAW over USB. The software that I have used to create audio CD's and DVDs back in the day describe the packing of the audio recording into tracks and scores as authoring. I used to do the computer work for wedding videographers and small-time musos. I am competent at creating an AC3 5.1 track for a video and packing into various container formats

English is not my first language, so I tend to follow the literal meanings of words. I can see that creating a master copy in the distributable format and taming the signal can have the word mastering applied as it can be applied to the professional doing the work, the master

I hope this clears up in a sensible way my use of the coined phrase, live mastering, for the lack of a better word. This is me assuming that anyone coming across the term will also create all those associations and get the context

I am aware that music for distribution is usually individually recorded instruments mixed down later to a stereo track, I have always assumed this to be referred to as post-processing and pre fader recording of the individual instruments as pre-mastering

Please let me know how far off I am on this, as I do not enjoy throwing words around that I do not know the meaning off

Thanks and regards
Randy

 

[Randy Bassinga]

In case Randy bowed out, by the prices commanded, I'd say the Z623 is special. https://www.ebay.com/itm/144970115220

I hope you are not saying special in jest 🙂

Good things about this unit, its bad reviews for music, quoting overblown bass and very coloured sound. (This is true only when the bass knob is raised). Cross over point is way too high around 300hz and all that gets blown up with the powerful driver and amp. This works for me, plugging into the mono bass section only with a cheap mono black box universal preamp and bass gives an instant native tone reminiscent of Robbie Shakespeare's warm but deep sound as heard on a recording. Loads of it, without losing composure. I suspect this is the result of trying to build a game audio system to THX spec. To get such output during dynamic peaks without going nuts, there must be some good clipping control features built in. I can see lots of jfets on the PCBs. A happy accident that has served us well

I have been down all morning with bad leg cramps. It's only been a few weeks now, after over a year of wearing bandages due to a bad accident. Being mobile again had I working on the boat trailer and a bit of filing flew through the gap in the glasses and buried in my right eye a few days ago, so glare is also not fun now. I must be accident-prone, good and bad

 

[jjasniew]

I hope you are not saying special in jest 🙂

Nope. Hope you're in a better place (healthwise) soon!

 

[Randy Bassinga]

@Randy Bassinga may I ask you to share some photos of your Logitech enclosure, and some details about how you tapped into Logitech electronics? Or perhaps you mentioned a separate thread? Whatever works for you. This thread, and an earlier one between you and Gnobuddy already contains a lot of info, they could be linked or copied from perhaps.

Also, how did you arrive at Z623 specifically? I am not following computer/gaming tech, so perhaps it is a well-known thing in that community, or perhaps you simply had it at hand, and it is good enough?

Actually, @Randy Bassinga , I've reread your thread from a year ago, and it has very nice pictures of the enclosure. I would still appreciate some details on the electronics: both how you tapped in, and how you mounted it. Thanks!

And I see that you had access to the used Z623s at near-zero prices - very good. Are there other models that are equally suitable or Z623 is special?

Now that's a story
In 2010, I ask for separation after 15yrs of marriage. I had become 136 kg and had been told that I was too fat and an embarrassment at public events like the upcoming wedding of the sister in laws and that I had been asked not to attend

A few months later I was 90kgs, single, fit from swimming. With the fishing industry turning into blood sport, I did a public boycott, shut manufacturing and took up taxi. I had a new install in my new V8 Holden. JL audio W7 running off a 1000/1. When I would drive into my street, I would notice this gorgeous colombiana looking expectantly and moving to the music from my car

I had just set up a bachelor pad and had a pool table and a massive Yamaha HT system in the living room. Had parties all the time. Then I set up a large screen, PC and sounds in the bedroom

Freelancer Alpha One Dash One, do you copy 😀

While looking for a compact HT system, I noticed the Logitech claimed THX and got the larger 5.1 channel with built-in AC3 processing. One day I was and listening to some reggaeton and had a knock on the door, "hey papi, what you listening to". She had started jamming from across the street 😀

Then I moved to a little island, met someone and got married. I took the Logitech with me, as it fit within limits for a bag weight for my new home. As a tourist I could only stay for 3 months at a time and back to Sydney for a couple of days of hard shopping before going home. There I started an event's biz, photos, vids, dancers, musicians and DJ. I bought a locally available 15" based PA. A behringer FX12U or something mixer and used virtual DJ on the laptop for the sounds. My first event was a little outdoor, roofed location. I had a hard time listening to what was happening as the speaker locations were bad. So I set the Logitech up on the desk as monitors. What the little sub added to the 15s was crazy, and I adopted it as a sub for my small setup

After 4 years of this, I brought my new family with me back to Sydney to live here again. I went back to the taxi. Then our industry got ubbered and we lost everything. I had a little cash reserve, so we packed up and moved into a tiny home in Qld and tried to set up a boat rental, but then I got injured. We were still comfortable, and I had time to relax and recover. I was entering a working retirement anyway. My 9yr old daughter picked bass and double bass in school. I hadn't expected her to. When we went to shop for an amp, we tried the entire range at the shop. The only thing that mad her happy was this huge ampeg like the size of the one on the stage of Sunsplash. She sees it in the videos all the time, as we watch a lot of concert recording. That's what she wanted, as only that one sounded like our home and car. To her, the rumbles and like didn't even sound bassy, and she found the missing sound annoying. Then we plugged her into an active Yamaha speaker and again same

That got me thinking. The ampeg sounded just like our little home sub. She was happy with the sound of the bass guitar through the Yamaha MG12XU at the shop into our Z623. We took it to the shop. So I bought that mixer for our home and also to try to replicate a channel strip and fit that into a box with the Z623 parts to make a 2.1 cab

I bought a new Z623 for this project. Then I found one at the reuse centre and returned the new one unopened. The reuse centre one had the satellites and controls missing. Only the sub box with its power cord. I worked out the D15 connector for all the audio lines. As the preamp section was missing, I figured out how to power that unit up with shorting of some pins. To see what happens, I picked up a cheap little universal preamp encased in a black resin block. I traced the 5v preamp power wire in the connector and used a converter to turn that to 18v for the black brick. I made a wooden, head section to mount on top of the sub and added masking sides and upholstered the whole. I inlaid black sheet material on one surface to build the channel strip. The black box with a knob to control volume was sufficient to hit the Robbie sound. I made a jfet pre point to point and it sounded a lot better again over the black box Kemo

I stopped work on it at that point, as it did the job. But the music shop heard all this and asked for a demo. The staff tested it against the range in the shop and asked me to try to make something like for their shop

Since then, I have been doing a lot of shopping and testing and found the right drivers to build a louder version while keeping the size form factor. In parallel, I have been working on my own tube preamp system that I call Uf'fornica. This upset a lot of people too

 

[Randy Bassinga]

Nope. Hope you're in a better place (healthwise) soon!

Thank you

Croc
Sorry, I had to leave the last message and run earlier. I didn't get to addressing your questions. For me, the Z623 is special. So is the larger model, whatever that is called. There is a flaw in some of the Z623s. The volume pot goes scratchy, and they get sent to landfill. This is easily corrected with some cleaning or replacing. Our council is proactive about waste and has a reuse centre. I have now found 3 spares here. And all those were complete units with all the speakers and things. I have also brought home other brands models from there as well as pro amps and none come close. It's like a difference between ghetto blaster and serious compact car audio between the Z623 and the other brands like Creative, Altec Lansing, Edifier and even similar HT systems from Yamaha, Samsung and such. I have over a dozen working units here. I clean them up and donate them as keyboard and phone music apps amps to families through the school music teacher. We are in a small regional town and kids here suffer as parents don't have money to get them "pro" equipment. Now through our program, we have a bunch of families jamming with what they can get their hands on. So far for this year, I have collected and tuned and cleaned up an electronic rack type good drum set. One of the systems will go as monitor for this. I am donating our Yamaha PSR e463 to the school and one system will go as monitor for that. I also found and cleaned up a bass. This will go to the school as donation. To be rented from school by students. School has a rumble to use with this. The school principal, deputy and the music teachers prefer that Jiya use her amp as it sounds better and makes our school standout as the interschool. I also found a guitar and amp beginner package there. This is going to school too

So this year the school music room will be very well stocked by our standards. Wouldn't have happened if I hadn't showed an interest to tinker. The school budget does not allow "pro"

Now for the reminder of your questions. I totally understand your query and interest, and it appears that some others do too. Problem is that the DIY and franking attracts creates contention with "pro" fundamentalists. May I request the following from you:

1 - Decide if you want a home installed monitor system or a portable cab that doubles as a mini PA. By this I mean, do you want speakers on the desk to playback all your stuff or stuff everything into one box to make a 2.1 based amp/cab

2 - Figure out an ideal near future ensemble for your music area. E.g. mine is a bass, electric guitar, two mini keyboards, PC drums and 3 mics for vocals and our acoustic stuff like our double bass, tambourine, maracas, manjeera, dholak. Folks are right when they say that the acoustics are loud, ours don't get any use as it's hard to jam at a comfortable lounge room volume. Hence, now midi controllers to use VSTs and samples that have volume twidle

3 - Think about what attracts you. Do you want to mostly jam live with family members and friends and record that live? Or do you prefer working instrument after instrument and layering into DAW for processing. Or, like me, do you wish to have both options?

Once you have worked out your ideal immediate needs and near future needs, please start a new thread with just that information and a query regarding the potential for merging the Z623 with that to discuss the possible execution. Add link to which TPA board you already have too

There are a few options out there, including my DIY one based on my "Parrot" power amplifier. I can tell you right now that the TPA would be fine, if you can find the right driver for it to give you the sound you want. It won’t be able to approach the Z623 in output SPL unless you used the PA type speakers recommended by others and can live with a big box. The general PA or traditional driver won't be able to go as low and deep as the Z623, unless you went for one that did well with EDM

Again, determine your scope for the near future. Present that information in a new thread. Make it clear that you are exploring a DIY implementation. That you have the interest to go "stock" or "pro" concurrently if the need arises (if true and to appease the fundamentalist authorities). This way, you will be able to explore all the options available to you

I am going to make a DJ system from the spare Z623s for small parties. I'll do a three compartment box with the sub going into the bottom and two x 8" PA coaxial in the other two segments. I should end up with 4 such enclosures. The power amps inside the Z623 for the satellites are a real 30wrms x2. Each of them running one 8" coax should make for a potent 3 driver one box active speaker. Four such will make for a good small DJ setup for reggae and EDM at house parties and things, and be roof rack carried

Everyone, keep in mind that these are messing around with stuff, just because we do this doesn't mean that we don't use the right equipment when the situation demands. I'll start a log too of building my new DIY studio

 

[tmuikku]

Hi, quick post to original topic.

I've been playing bass for ages and learned few things: other bass players seem to use what amps / speakers they use and get nice tone, so use what ever you (the artist) like.

Me, most bass combos I've had seem to suck more or less and best sounds I've got originate from nice full range capable speaker, like hifi speaker or pa speaker or proper bass rig. I don't understand many systems, frequency response / tone seems always weird. 15" cabs seem to be nice sweetspot for me, but I have to get them pointed to ear to hear the top. Piezo tweeters suck big time. For me, its more important to have all the harmonics nice than fundamental, just like hifi speaker. Same for mixing, bass sounds weird if one starts EQuing mids. Better get right tone as early on as possible, from the fingers and strings and bass tone controls and have the amp /speaker reproduce what ever is fed into without much coloration. El.Guitars are different story, they rely on it, gear spicing it up.

Of course the hifi speaker types usually aren't capable to play loud, but for home practice anything will do in my opinion. Often there is no need to go very loud, gigs have it amplified from the PA so all one has to do is have enough output at the rehearsals. If its hell raisers and beer drinkers type of situation big rig is needed, but many times proper cab with a 15" is enough.

If daughter is serious about the hobby buy what she wants. I suggest buy working gear from second hand market and you won't likely lose much money much at all selling it back. Avoid anything broken or beat up, its no fun have best gear in the world if it doesn't work or messes up with you middle of a song. If she doesn't know what she wants, try to figure it out with her. Its important to have legit gear, thats legit to her, what ever that is. Probably some fashionable thing at teen ages and when skills evolve the requirements evolve. Perhaps some effects pedals, perhaps certain tone for certain genre and so on. Anyway, having gear that one wants boosts learning gives confidence which help get forward with the career / hobby.

Remember, its about having fun, not about worrying problems 🙂

 

[check12]

Just a quick post as many have asked about my neck jig, then we can get back to the drama and entertainment of the logitech bass revolution 😜

The jig accurately simulates string tension on the neck when the strings are removed.

Necks do not bend in an even curve like an arrow shooting bow, it's more of an uneven "S" shape as the neck approaches the body, so for most accurate fret dressing the neck must be put under the same tension as it has when strings are on and tuned to pitch.

So the guitar is strapped to the jig and the jig starts in the upright position (like when being played) so gravity can also come into play, guitar is tuned to pitch and neck straightened... the dial gauges (pressing on the centre of the neck in two positions) are zero'd... then the jig is layed in the flat position (as in photo).

The strings are then removed and the neck will back bow... tension is then applied by the little headstock jack (like mini car jack) and red pull down strap (at nut position) till the gauges read zero again.. this is as close as you can simulate a flat neck shape with strings on while strings are removed. The rods are then raised to support the neck in this position.

Traditional fret dressing is then done with an engineered beam long enough to cover all frets so the abrasion is completely even.

Nuts are a complete subject and science all to themselves, I only use bone & brass here, although I will use resin composites if people insist. Sometimes I carve more intricate designs on them but this guy just wanted large flat areas so that he could polish it easily... 1/1000" gaps are measured using gas nozzle cleaning rods... there you go, some "secrets" of guitar lutherie... there is nothing to hide, having a jig does not mean that you will be good with it, it still takes years of practice... 🙂

 

[check12]

Please let me know how far off I am on this, as I do not enjoy throwing words around that I do not know the meaning off

Your problem is though that you regularly throw insults when people disagree with you and you get upset... 🙄😭🙄

 

[check12]

What about some technical specifications of this logitech sub... frequency response etc? .... we are on a technical forum so it would be good to analyse it properly.

You mention that you see lots of jfets in the circuits, what benefit do you think that makes?

Finally you have mentioned Rumble, Rumblies, etc. but not actually made it clear what that is, I think most are guessing you mean Fender Rumble amps.

But there are about 15 or more different models, which one are you referring too?

Or are you saying your creation is better than all of them?

Have you removed the sub & satellite drivers and put them in a different enclosure?... Let's have some pics of your work.

If you don't understand anything I've asked, just say and I will try and make it clearer for you.

I am genuinely interested in the specifications and images of your project after the outstanding performance you claim, maybe you really have outdone the whole bass guitar amp industry design philosophy and should be revered rather than critisized by the experienced and professional here... I have an open mind now please provide more details... 🤔

 

[Crocobar]

Your problem is though that you regularly throw insults when people disagree with you and you get upset... 🙄😭🙄

I think you are biased, Check(perhaps I am too but still): reread the thread, it is hard not to see that the opposite-to-Randy side has a lot more snark, personal attacks and generally unhelpful haughty attitude and completely or nearly completely offtopic posts.

 

[Crocobar]

...
I am genuinely interested in the specifications and images of your project after the outstanding performance you claim, maybe you really have outdone the whole bass guitar amp industry design philosophy and should be revered rather than critisized by the experienced and professional here... I have an open mind now please provide more details... 🤔

In the second message in this thread, right after op, Randy provided a link that contains a lot of details and pictures.

 

[Crocobar]

...maybe you ... should be revered rather than critisized by the experienced and professional here... 🤔

For what it's worth, I think Randy, as anyone else, should not be revered either but listened to with respect. I personally think that several of his opponents fell short of that ideal.

 

[Turbowatch2]

I have an open mind now please provide more details... 🤔

Are you really thinking he will open up about his developments? He has spent many years with hard reserch work and then you make all the profit from it?
No, no, not really! Randy is not stupid!
!

 

[leadbelly]

For what it's worth, I think Randy, as anyone else, should not be revered either but listened to with respect. I personally think that several of his opponents fell short of that ideal.

The problem with Randy's posts is that he's a master of argumentum ad nauseam (you're no slouch either). Write posts that are several hundred words long and have many technical errors in them and knowledgeable people just tune out, better things to do with our time.

 

[Crocobar]

@leadbelly tuning out and ignoring is fine, who can blame you for not spending your time for free on something you don't want to? Or, you could, if you wanted to, take a specific technical error and correct it with explanation. That would not have solved the world's problems but it would make things better. What is not helpful at all, and is unpleasant, is saying "this is nonsense...".

 

[Crocobar]

Croc, I see you're in the state of Washington. I'm in Olympia. I have a bass guitar combo amp I'd like to sell, for lets say $150, just to get rid of it.

Ampeg BA-115, 100W, 15" + HF driver - you could play a small club easily. Would more than handle both guitar and bass at living room levels without breaking a sweat. Reason for offer is because it's just too difficult - for me - to box and ship; I'd take less than it's worth (I see people are willing to pay $300+ shipped) to avoid the pack and ship and risk getting broken by the carrier hassle. PM me if interested.

For that matter, I have a Velodyne 12" that would more than handle the bass part, with that little Fender sitting on top for the treble. probably 100W also. Same reason; I cant build a container good enough that it wont get broken during shipping. I'd like $50, just to get rid of it.

Both these things land in the sweet spot for abuse by shipping handlers. Large, unwieldy containers that are cumbersome to handle and weigh a lot. I just dont have the 2-3" of foam cushion on all six sides, nor a container 4-6" bigger than these boxes are already...

I am interested but I wonder if we can practically do it. I have the same problem with buying from you as you have with selling: it is a 4-5 hour roundtrip for me, doing it just for this is not practical, defeats the purpose. I occasionally drive by Olympia on my way to and from Seattle. Perhaps we can arrange something on one of those trips. Please don't feel obligated to hold it for me but I might PM you if I drive that way some time soon. Thanks!

 

[leadbelly]

That is a fair point, but there have been so many incorrect technical statements made by you and Randy AND respondents that it is hopeless at this point AND so many threadjacking posts as well. To be blunt the real reason I don't bother to get technical is that it is obvious that you are sockpuppeting for Randy. You keep talking about how you have a technical background but that is just causing you to confirm your own bias.

 

[Crocobar]

The above raises an interesting (and probably very naive) question: is it possible to agree ahead of time on a practical at-home objective test, that would resolve the Pro vs Logitech issue to the point that one side concedes? I am tempted to buy that Ampeg, and also build Randy's Z623 setup, and do a comparison test for my at-home use case: playing at a reasonable volume in an average-sized living room, by a beginner.