koutrou,
While I have no formal plans for my mid bass horns I will describe them to you and how they came about.
About 10 yrs ago I met Dr. Bruce Edgar at a CES show where I heard his Titan horn system for the first time and loved the sound. I knew I wanted a similar system for my self but could not afford it. I kept in touch with Dr. Bruce and when I finished my audio room I asked him to come up with largest mid bass horn that could fit through the front door to my house which was 34" wide using dual Altec 515b's per horn ( 16 ohms per driver in parallel for 8 ohms ). He gave the horn profile required on a piece of paper.
I then copied the profile on 5 pieces of 3/4" plywood and mounted these pieces to another piece of 3/4" plywood spaced about 8" apart. This gave me one side of the horn. I then used 4 layers of 3/8" bendable plywood and used epoxy ( NOT wood glue ) to secure each piece while clamping down over the profile. I repeated this procedure 4 times to complete the 4 sides for the 2 horns. The top and bottom pieces of the horn worked out to about 12 degrees and were double 3/4" birch ply with oak veneer. It was a royal PIA and a lot of work but it came out great. The inside of the horn was oak veneered and the outside had 1/2" solid oak wainscot added for looks and increased rigidity.
The mouth of the horn is 32.5" wide and 47.5" tall and 35" deep plus 13" for the speaker enclosure. The speaker enclosure is approx. 24" wide and 36" tall, double 3/4" birch ply and heavily braced along with damping material. The throats are 10.5" square and tapered to have a very smooth transition to the horn flare. There is also a tapered wedge about 18" long between the throats matching the inside horn profile. I hope my description makes sense. I suck with computers and silently thank Dr. Bruce for his help every time I turn on my system.
There is nothing like a proper speaker system that contains a good mid bass horn. The high efficiency, snap, power, detail, live sounding presentation in that critical range has to be heard to be appreciated and is what is missing in most all other systems IMHO.
While I have no formal plans for my mid bass horns I will describe them to you and how they came about.
About 10 yrs ago I met Dr. Bruce Edgar at a CES show where I heard his Titan horn system for the first time and loved the sound. I knew I wanted a similar system for my self but could not afford it. I kept in touch with Dr. Bruce and when I finished my audio room I asked him to come up with largest mid bass horn that could fit through the front door to my house which was 34" wide using dual Altec 515b's per horn ( 16 ohms per driver in parallel for 8 ohms ). He gave the horn profile required on a piece of paper.
I then copied the profile on 5 pieces of 3/4" plywood and mounted these pieces to another piece of 3/4" plywood spaced about 8" apart. This gave me one side of the horn. I then used 4 layers of 3/8" bendable plywood and used epoxy ( NOT wood glue ) to secure each piece while clamping down over the profile. I repeated this procedure 4 times to complete the 4 sides for the 2 horns. The top and bottom pieces of the horn worked out to about 12 degrees and were double 3/4" birch ply with oak veneer. It was a royal PIA and a lot of work but it came out great. The inside of the horn was oak veneered and the outside had 1/2" solid oak wainscot added for looks and increased rigidity.
The mouth of the horn is 32.5" wide and 47.5" tall and 35" deep plus 13" for the speaker enclosure. The speaker enclosure is approx. 24" wide and 36" tall, double 3/4" birch ply and heavily braced along with damping material. The throats are 10.5" square and tapered to have a very smooth transition to the horn flare. There is also a tapered wedge about 18" long between the throats matching the inside horn profile. I hope my description makes sense. I suck with computers and silently thank Dr. Bruce for his help every time I turn on my system.
There is nothing like a proper speaker system that contains a good mid bass horn. The high efficiency, snap, power, detail, live sounding presentation in that critical range has to be heard to be appreciated and is what is missing in most all other systems IMHO.
Sounds like an amazing horn. Do you have photos? I have to agree that the sound and dynamics from a mid horn can't be beat. I built a tractrix based on a profile from Volvotreter's spreadsheet (which resembles an Edgar tractrix) and it sounds great. I built mine in foam core and used constrained layer damping.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/259293-prv-5mr450-ndy-fast-applications.html
xrk971,
I do have pictures and will share them when I learn how or have a friend give me a hand posting the photo's. I still have a bit of work on the house to complete but the big stuff is done. You have good skills and done a nice job on your horns !!! Constrained layer construction is a great way to cut down on unwanted vibrations. If you are ever in NYC you are welcome to have a listen. No speaker system is perfect but this one is excellent.
The rest of the speaker system consists of:
Midrange-- Field coil converted jbl 2441 compression drivers ( from Dr. Bruce ) with beryllium phrams on 26" solid wood Sierra Brooks 250hz tractrix horns and Lambda power supplies.
Tweeter- TAD ET703. I also have a pair of Fostex t500amk2 around but prefer the Tad's
I also have a pair of TAD 2001's and 1000hz wood tractrix horns for high mids that are not hooked up yet.
Subwoofers- pair of dual opposed 18" TC Sounds LMS 5400's in 9 cu. ft. sealed box. Not hooked up yet, but soon.
Electronics- Cary SLP05 preamp, Modwright converted Sony cd/sacd player. I have several pairs of mono block amplifiers which include Art Audio Adagio's with 842 tubes, Electra-print type 50 tube amplifiers with silver output transformers, 211 Electra-print amps with silver transformers being built as I write this, Cary 2A3 and 300b mono blocks. Antique sound Labs 805 mono's + others. I have not had the time to listen to all these amps yet and was thinking of tri or quad amping the system in the future. As you can see I was amp collecting for several years. We will see what shakes out the best.
I do have pictures and will share them when I learn how or have a friend give me a hand posting the photo's. I still have a bit of work on the house to complete but the big stuff is done. You have good skills and done a nice job on your horns !!! Constrained layer construction is a great way to cut down on unwanted vibrations. If you are ever in NYC you are welcome to have a listen. No speaker system is perfect but this one is excellent.
The rest of the speaker system consists of:
Midrange-- Field coil converted jbl 2441 compression drivers ( from Dr. Bruce ) with beryllium phrams on 26" solid wood Sierra Brooks 250hz tractrix horns and Lambda power supplies.
Tweeter- TAD ET703. I also have a pair of Fostex t500amk2 around but prefer the Tad's
I also have a pair of TAD 2001's and 1000hz wood tractrix horns for high mids that are not hooked up yet.
Subwoofers- pair of dual opposed 18" TC Sounds LMS 5400's in 9 cu. ft. sealed box. Not hooked up yet, but soon.
Electronics- Cary SLP05 preamp, Modwright converted Sony cd/sacd player. I have several pairs of mono block amplifiers which include Art Audio Adagio's with 842 tubes, Electra-print type 50 tube amplifiers with silver output transformers, 211 Electra-print amps with silver transformers being built as I write this, Cary 2A3 and 300b mono blocks. Antique sound Labs 805 mono's + others. I have not had the time to listen to all these amps yet and was thinking of tri or quad amping the system in the future. As you can see I was amp collecting for several years. We will see what shakes out the best.
Why do you prefer the TAD over the Fostex? I have not heard anyone saying anything negative about the Fostex yet.
What does the field coil do to the sound of your JBL 2441? Did you ever get a chance to compare it to a regular 2441, with Be diaphragm or not?
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a very nice recipe !
I read here that you were clever enough to use dual opposing
(or reaction-force canceling) subs. I have been preaching about this for over 10 years and it is finally catching on. Also: Once you go active, and hear the results for yourself, you'll wonder why you never did it sooner
Here's hoping a friend helps you upload photos soon !!
I read here that you were clever enough to use dual opposing
(or reaction-force canceling) subs. I have been preaching about this for over 10 years and it is finally catching on. Also: Once you go active, and hear the results for yourself, you'll wonder why you never did it sooner
Here's hoping a friend helps you upload photos soon !!
That's an impressive system. You may want to consider a tapped horn for your sub - it will have the SPL efficiency and clean horn sound to keep up with the rest of the system. Sealed subs are good but a very different sound than a FLH or TH and they take lots of power. The drivers you have may actually work for a TH. Check out the system built by Legis in this thread if you haven't see it already.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/258706-study-dipole-cardioid-bass-horn.html
Everything is around 110dB at 2.83v from sub on up. You really don't need more than a few watts to enjoy this system.
There is no reason why two drivers in a sealed box cannot have same time response when playing a sharp impulse. Two drivers in a tapped horn located at different positions along the flow path may have a problem, as well as two bass horns if different lengths. But two identical drivers in parallel or series wired push push have identical output timing wise.
I'm only familiar with stuff I haveeavey FH1, Bruce's 100Hz hypex w. 2220H, EV Sentry IV (Ray Newman), a diy 55Hz flare rate midbass ~15 cu.ft. , my 3-K-horns, and a few diy pa midbass in my mess. as stated before, RCA-Fan's little horn might sound pretty good with 12pe32 or similar and cover OP's range.
plan - the mouth is awfully small but it sims pretty well
http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/2/21168/2Bwith_reflector.gif
Karlson for myself have brought better sound for size involved and a slotted pipe waveguide can be better than a horn within its range.
I would like a midbass horn which could work from 60-70Hz lower end solid and powerful - the horn magic would probably be better than higher cutoff.
things like La Scala don't cut it compared to a Karlson - K-horn sounds awful in my flexy wall room, so I could throw together an improved LS with FH1. 511 horn and horn tweeter to make a halfass decent rock system
eavey FH1, Bruce's 100Hz hypex w. 2220H, EV Sentry IV (Ray Newman), a diy 55Hz flare rate midbass ~15 cu.ft. , my 3-K-horns, and a few diy pa midbass in my mess. as stated before, RCA-Fan's little horn might sound pretty good with 12pe32 or similar and cover OP's range. plan - the mouth is awfully small but it sims pretty well
http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/2/21168/2Bwith_reflector.gif
Karlson for myself have brought better sound for size involved and a slotted pipe waveguide can be better than a horn within its range.
I would like a midbass horn which could work from 60-70Hz lower end solid and powerful - the horn magic would probably be better than higher cutoff.
things like La Scala don't cut it compared to a Karlson - K-horn sounds awful in my flexy wall room, so I could throw together an improved LS with FH1. 511 horn and horn tweeter to make a halfass decent rock system
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Rewind & others,
Please don't take my preference for the Tad Et703 over the Fostex t500amk2 as a negative comment about the Fostex. The Fostex is one of the finest tweeters available today without a doubt. However ONLY by direct comparison with the Tad in MY system does the Fostex have a slightly different " metallic " sound and does not blend as well with the rest of the system. The difference is VERY small and is probable related to the magnesium phragm's on the Fostex compared to Be phragm's on the Tad. If I never heard the Tad's I could very easily live with the Fostex. Remember I am using Be phragm's from 400hz. to bat territory. Since I have a machine shop in my basement, I will eventually make a round brass or bronze horn to replace the front horn on the Tad tweeter ala Cessaro Gamma speaker.
freddi,
First, Thanks for your many contributions over the years. I have probably read every post you ever made and helped me form some of my thoughts about horn speakers in general.
3yrs. ago after the Newport audio show I visited Dr. Bruce at his home and listened to his all field coil Titan system, that was a rare treat !!! It was great. I knew that is what I wanted but had to DIY.
I always felt that his mid bass horn was smaller than ideal but very good. That is why I asked him to help me design a larger horn. I am sure my horn is not perfect but head and heels above any " box " solution I heard to date.
If you can go for a larger horn I say go for it. There is real " magic " if you can get below 80hz. with a front loaded horn. I envy people who have a larger room/horns but I am very happy with what I have.
xrk971,
I find your tapped horn comments timely !!! I have spent the last couple of days searching the various audio sites for tapped horns. I was looking for the best possible tapped horn with a foot print of 16"-18" wide max x 24"-30" deep x 96" tall and did not much at all. I would like a dual 12" or 15" driver design but only found the "kraken' , volvotreeter, William cowan, tom danleys dts20 ( too big of a foot print ). Ideas ?
When I have some time, I will give my subjective ( non expert ) listening impressions on the JBL 2441 ( stock ) vs with Be phragm's vs converted to field coil and Be phragm;s on a 250hz wood horn for those interested.
Please don't take my preference for the Tad Et703 over the Fostex t500amk2 as a negative comment about the Fostex. The Fostex is one of the finest tweeters available today without a doubt. However ONLY by direct comparison with the Tad in MY system does the Fostex have a slightly different " metallic " sound and does not blend as well with the rest of the system. The difference is VERY small and is probable related to the magnesium phragm's on the Fostex compared to Be phragm's on the Tad. If I never heard the Tad's I could very easily live with the Fostex. Remember I am using Be phragm's from 400hz. to bat territory. Since I have a machine shop in my basement, I will eventually make a round brass or bronze horn to replace the front horn on the Tad tweeter ala Cessaro Gamma speaker.
freddi,
First, Thanks for your many contributions over the years. I have probably read every post you ever made and helped me form some of my thoughts about horn speakers in general.
3yrs. ago after the Newport audio show I visited Dr. Bruce at his home and listened to his all field coil Titan system, that was a rare treat !!! It was great. I knew that is what I wanted but had to DIY.
I always felt that his mid bass horn was smaller than ideal but very good. That is why I asked him to help me design a larger horn. I am sure my horn is not perfect but head and heels above any " box " solution I heard to date.
If you can go for a larger horn I say go for it. There is real " magic " if you can get below 80hz. with a front loaded horn. I envy people who have a larger room/horns but I am very happy with what I have.
xrk971,
I find your tapped horn comments timely !!! I have spent the last couple of days searching the various audio sites for tapped horns. I was looking for the best possible tapped horn with a foot print of 16"-18" wide max x 24"-30" deep x 96" tall and did not much at all. I would like a dual 12" or 15" driver design but only found the "kraken' , volvotreeter, William cowan, tom danleys dts20 ( too big of a foot print ). Ideas ?
When I have some time, I will give my subjective ( non expert ) listening impressions on the JBL 2441 ( stock ) vs with Be phragm's vs converted to field coil and Be phragm;s on a 250hz wood horn for those interested.
Hotattoo,
What bass extension freq are you looking for and did I hear you correctly that 96in high was allowed? If 35hz is enough for you look at the TH-18.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/190635-th-18-flat-35hz-xoc1s-design.html
It's a well regarded design that has found quite a few followers.
There are also the keystone subs and maybe one in 18in would work.
What bass extension freq are you looking for and did I hear you correctly that 96in high was allowed? If 35hz is enough for you look at the TH-18.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/190635-th-18-flat-35hz-xoc1s-design.html
It's a well regarded design that has found quite a few followers.
There are also the keystone subs and maybe one in 18in would work.
xrk971,
You read correctly about the 96" measurement . I am looking for a tall tapped horn that goes down to 16-18hz and plays clean to about 80hz with a small foot print. I have 10' ceilings so the height if free. I have room for the existing subs but the space is tight and just looking for a possible options.
You read correctly about the 96" measurement . I am looking for a tall tapped horn that goes down to 16-18hz and plays clean to about 80hz with a small foot print. I have 10' ceilings so the height if free. I have room for the existing subs but the space is tight and just looking for a possible options.
only difference from grelvs place and mine is that my system breathes better in a huge volume
besides the fact that my system is basically analog, passively crossed over(except hornsub LP) and tube driven above sub
you´d better get through the tunnel below the fjord next time....
best
Leif