Agreed, 'fast bass' is a piece of marketing bollocks......
I agree that usually paper/paper based woofers are easier to work with than aluminum, but strangely with the Designer Series, the opposite seems to be the case. The FR on the paper version looks really hard to work with unless crossed well below 2,000Hz.
To the OP, I wouldn't make your project more challenging than it is already...
Geoff
I agree that usually paper/paper based woofers are easier to work with than aluminum, but strangely with the Designer Series, the opposite seems to be the case. The FR on the paper version looks really hard to work with unless crossed well below 2,000Hz.
To the OP, I wouldn't make your project more challenging than it is already...
Geoff
Still been thinking my way through this and reading. At first I was not digging the 2.5 way topology. But after reading more about the drivers I've chosen and SPL and all of it, well I do see I am still behind on spl with just 1 6.5 driver. So the 2.5 way is making more sense and I think the way I would be using it with an active sub system at higher spl then excursion would most likely be ok with using the 2 existing passive radiators. It would be easy to dampen tune those pvs also and add a little more excursion failure resistance. And at lower spl they might sound really good without subwoofer system. To do it that way means I would only have to cut one new hole and it could be on the back or side (mirrored of course)
After further consideration. I could use this speaker in a 3 way.
Dayton Audio RS180P-4 7" Reference Paper Woofer 4 Ohm
I can seal off the 1st 6.5 hole and use that for midrange. That leaves almost the perfect volume for these in a vented enclosure. I would simply add a hole in the back for the 2nd passive radiator. Or still a 3 way I could seal off another lower section and make it a sealed enclosure with 2 of these as woofers and 1 midrange.
Of course these 7" drivers would be flush mounted. It would take every little bit of space to use the existing holes but only take some minor mods. My reservation is the power handling.
Dayton Audio RS180P-4 7" Reference Paper Woofer 4 Ohm
I can seal off the 1st 6.5 hole and use that for midrange. That leaves almost the perfect volume for these in a vented enclosure. I would simply add a hole in the back for the 2nd passive radiator. Or still a 3 way I could seal off another lower section and make it a sealed enclosure with 2 of these as woofers and 1 midrange.
Of course these 7" drivers would be flush mounted. It would take every little bit of space to use the existing holes but only take some minor mods. My reservation is the power handling.
A three way crossover is hard to get right, so you're making things hard for yourself. They also tend to use more crossover parts, so there's that too.
Maybe there is an existing three way project for that woofer? The RS180P - at least the 8 ohm version I use - has excellent mid-range anyway, so I'm not sure a three way with that as the bass driver will be worth it.
I've seen a three way with the Morel CAT378, RS180P-8 and DA270 (I think), but that won't work in your cabinet as the woofer's too big.
Geoff
Maybe there is an existing three way project for that woofer? The RS180P - at least the 8 ohm version I use - has excellent mid-range anyway, so I'm not sure a three way with that as the bass driver will be worth it.
I've seen a three way with the Morel CAT378, RS180P-8 and DA270 (I think), but that won't work in your cabinet as the woofer's too big.
Geoff
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Ok after your help and much thought and trying to see it done many different ways, I am going to order the Morel MDT 29 1-1/8" Soft Dome Tweeter & Dayton Audio DSA175-8 6-1/2" Designer Series Aluminum Cone Woofer
I had a go at a draft Xsim crossover for those drivers using makers' data, no measurements means it won't be accurate, of course. But it should give you a start.
As noted, I'm a beginner at all this and do not have the expertise or knowledge that other more experienced forum members will have. So please, seek their input.
I've assumed your cabinet is 8-10" wide. I would add that most projects which use the DSA175 use a smaller cabinet than yours, so after you see how it sounds, you made need to install a shelf to reduce the volume.
The Morel tweeter seems to take a dive after 10,000 Hz, but so do my Morel CAT378s and they sound fine.
HTH
Geoff
As noted, I'm a beginner at all this and do not have the expertise or knowledge that other more experienced forum members will have. So please, seek their input.
I've assumed your cabinet is 8-10" wide. I would add that most projects which use the DSA175 use a smaller cabinet than yours, so after you see how it sounds, you made need to install a shelf to reduce the volume.
The Morel tweeter seems to take a dive after 10,000 Hz, but so do my Morel CAT378s and they sound fine.
HTH
Geoff
Attachments
NB I was not able to obtain the ZMA (impedance) data and graph for the Morel in a form where I could use 'fptrace' on it to convert to a graph. There's a hefty impedance spike at 1,000 Hz which might need treatment by way of a resistor across the tweeter terminals, probably a 33 ohm would work, but you should seek another opinion on that issue.
Geoff
Geoff
I assembled the speakers with the generic crossovers and have listened for several days now. As far as the mod part I had to open up the through hole for the tweeter. The Morel MDT-29 fir the recess just fine. I added only some adhesive backed weather strip to the recess for the uppermost woofer cutout, just to give a little more support to the speakers frame lip. I was careful to only tighten the screws enough to secure the driver properly and not bend or distort the frome lip of the DSA175-8. The crossover fit easily. It took about 25 minutes to mod the cabinets and then 30 minutes to install the drivers.
Made some placement adjustments to my existing theater setup and ran the EQ setup. My receiver found these as large and set the sub xovr @40hz. I tried that bu knew it would be wrong especially at more SPLs. After messing witht he EQ I sat down to what ended up being 12 hours of listening. WOW I am spoiled now.
Somewhere around 5 hours in the tweeters became something even slightly better, sweeter calmer but the mids sounded a little diminshed and not as "alive" or a little muted. I figured it might be my ears after so much listening so I quit for the night. Over the next 2 days I started to realize these new woofers were indeed breaking in and becoming much more musical, more present in the low mids. I did when listening to some very loud music experience what I thought was the passive radiators (one of them) making a contact sound on some very strong bass much past where I would normally listen. I have now heard things in songs I never heard. The sound field is hugs and the location of instruments and voices is completely different so much better it is hard to quit playing one song after another.
I played Rock, Jazz, Classical, stuff I knew and had listened forever. Blown away is a good adjective. I put on Strunz & Farah Americas circa 1992. Oh My Lord so sweet so clean. Im so glad I did and so thankful you helped push me away from some of my choices and helped me settle on this driver with the morel tweeter. I do realize this can get better possibly with a matched xovr. But this is LIGHT years better sounding than my very nice but very old Yamaha Monitors.
I can hear things on the highs that are just breath takingly clean fast and decay slower. No that's not right it's that now, take a cymbal strike. I can discern the strike and follow through as the sound floats out there a little longer a lot cleaner. I just am so liking how nice these sound. If this can be even better I'll be very impressed cause this is addictvie to hear now.
Made some placement adjustments to my existing theater setup and ran the EQ setup. My receiver found these as large and set the sub xovr @40hz. I tried that bu knew it would be wrong especially at more SPLs. After messing witht he EQ I sat down to what ended up being 12 hours of listening. WOW I am spoiled now.
Somewhere around 5 hours in the tweeters became something even slightly better, sweeter calmer but the mids sounded a little diminshed and not as "alive" or a little muted. I figured it might be my ears after so much listening so I quit for the night. Over the next 2 days I started to realize these new woofers were indeed breaking in and becoming much more musical, more present in the low mids. I did when listening to some very loud music experience what I thought was the passive radiators (one of them) making a contact sound on some very strong bass much past where I would normally listen. I have now heard things in songs I never heard. The sound field is hugs and the location of instruments and voices is completely different so much better it is hard to quit playing one song after another.
I played Rock, Jazz, Classical, stuff I knew and had listened forever. Blown away is a good adjective. I put on Strunz & Farah Americas circa 1992. Oh My Lord so sweet so clean. Im so glad I did and so thankful you helped push me away from some of my choices and helped me settle on this driver with the morel tweeter. I do realize this can get better possibly with a matched xovr. But this is LIGHT years better sounding than my very nice but very old Yamaha Monitors.
I can hear things on the highs that are just breath takingly clean fast and decay slower. No that's not right it's that now, take a cymbal strike. I can discern the strike and follow through as the sound floats out there a little longer a lot cleaner. I just am so liking how nice these sound. If this can be even better I'll be very impressed cause this is addictvie to hear now.
I listened more this evening and worked with the Parametric EQ in a more logical approach. I zeroed all filters and started with the 2.k crossover point. -1.5db and a Q of .630 made a giant difference. Wahs and nasally tones become less overpronounced and more realistic. But still there was this mud lower down or a smothered mid range. I worked around the low=mid range and ended up -1.0db .5Q 250hz. This made another leap forward and the details of bass become so much better. The sound of the artists finger sliding down the bass string or some effect in the low-mid to muds became clear and intelligible. Maybe this is good info for tweaking a better crossover, but it also to me means this is a reasonable rewarding path for the Polk T50 enclosure that is close enough with a generic xovr to be used with parametric eq solving the few sound areas that need tweaking. I wondered if the 250 cut I made was the passive radiators contributing in that range. That cut made reverb and spatial effects in the bass region and low mid much nicer to enjoy.
This coming week I will get real data and add to the information here. I hope that can help some with what you are calculating. I noticed even with your software and designed crossover there was still a bump right where I just made a cut. I find that interesting. I have my laptop all setup with REW and mic ready to make some real measurements this next week.
I'd only regard a sim done without measurements as a starting point. Not surprising that my sim has some bumps, etc.
The sim is just that - a simulation, based on manufacture's data and in the case of the Morel tweeter, traced from that data as best I could. That data may not be accurate; some maker's data is reasonably so, others' is not: "Garbage In, Garbage Out". The Dayton data is, I think, based on an infinite baffle system and will differ from what's measured when in situ, but their data is widely regarded as accurate.
Good luck with your measurements, I think they will prove interesting.
Geoff
The sim is just that - a simulation, based on manufacture's data and in the case of the Morel tweeter, traced from that data as best I could. That data may not be accurate; some maker's data is reasonably so, others' is not: "Garbage In, Garbage Out". The Dayton data is, I think, based on an infinite baffle system and will differ from what's measured when in situ, but their data is widely regarded as accurate.
Good luck with your measurements, I think they will prove interesting.
Geoff
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I spent some time getting measurements but have not yet fully analyzed these. I did decide my Auto EQ "YAPO" was crazy with the correction settings. So I started over and have been working on best placement. Then I worked on listening and slowly walking through major EQ peaks & valleys. Geoff you mentioned the Morel likes to fall off at 10K. In my case the roll off looked to start around 13K. I made a wide Q boost of 1DB @ 16K that really helped the upper end. I made lots of tweaks down lower and when I resolved the mudiness and found the problem areas to cut, then the details of the mid and upper mid emerged....WOW
I have now listened to songs I have been listening to for 40 years for the FIRST TIME.
The passive radiators do contribute to the flavor of the sound and DRUMS OMG drums are amazing
I have now listened to songs I have been listening to for 40 years for the FIRST TIME.
The passive radiators do contribute to the flavor of the sound and DRUMS OMG drums are amazing
Dropbox - 20201203_153548.jpg - Simplify your life
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Dropbox - Project T50 MDT29 DSA175-8 Set 001.mdat - Simplify your life
I will get more and better measurements this was MIC Up
Dropbox - 20201203_152328.jpg - Simplify your life
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Dropbox - Project T50 MDT29 DSA175-8 Set 001.mdat - Simplify your life
I will get more and better measurements this was MIC Up
I will most likely build a center channel to match my front speakers. I already have a crossover to use as one of mine had a failed solder on the spade connection and it popped off. It was replaced within 2 days so Good On Parts Express. I already soldered a lead wire on and can use it. A center with just the MDT29 & DSA175-8 with 2 passive radiators in a horizontal enclosure could fit under my TV with just raising it a couple of inches.