I am playing with a new layout, all volume and mute, with a remote, and no input selection. It will have a panel mount rotary decoder for the volume knob with a 1"x1" circuit board behind it. A display board for a 1"x 1.5" window with a 1.5"x2" circuit board. But the digital board holds more of the parts and is 3.2"x10" with the analog board the same size stacked on top of it. I will try the CCF Vishay/Dale series of resistors provided by Roy for a listening test. The larger RN65 and RN70 series of resistor sound great, or that they don't add anything audible, but are more expensive, not like the Caddocks but more than the CCF series resistor. So as soon as the new set of boards get here I am ready to build up a set and give feedback on sound quality then turn them over to my audio business friend to listen to it.
John,
Sounds like a great plan. Anything you can do to reduce the footprint of the boards can only help. In a dual mono preamp configuration, you have little room for I/O and or attenuation boards. Anything that can be mounted horizontally to the front or back of the case to save space is welcome. Generally, any off-the-shelf case would not have the room to mount my current configuration on one level. Thats why I had to build a taller case of my own that will support two levels.
While you are at it, I think you should consider an optional small horizontally mounted I/O board with two inputs, one with the flexibility to be balanced or single ended, that can be mounted to the rear panel.
It might also be a suitable time to rethink your remote-control options. I have single ended solutions that just use the Apple remote control, which I think is a design masterpiece. The plastic replacement versions are not as thin but are very inexpensive and saves you the trouble of building a remote-control board and fashioning a case for it.
I'll cover my continuing adventures with your rev three boards in a separate email, later today.
Regards,
Roy
Sounds like a great plan. Anything you can do to reduce the footprint of the boards can only help. In a dual mono preamp configuration, you have little room for I/O and or attenuation boards. Anything that can be mounted horizontally to the front or back of the case to save space is welcome. Generally, any off-the-shelf case would not have the room to mount my current configuration on one level. Thats why I had to build a taller case of my own that will support two levels.
While you are at it, I think you should consider an optional small horizontally mounted I/O board with two inputs, one with the flexibility to be balanced or single ended, that can be mounted to the rear panel.
It might also be a suitable time to rethink your remote-control options. I have single ended solutions that just use the Apple remote control, which I think is a design masterpiece. The plastic replacement versions are not as thin but are very inexpensive and saves you the trouble of building a remote-control board and fashioning a case for it.
I'll cover my continuing adventures with your rev three boards in a separate email, later today.
Regards,
Roy
The new layout of the boards is to fit in an existing preamp. The boards can be mounted horizontally or vertically. The Analog board is as big as it is now to accommodate the large resistors in a balanced setup. Going to the smaller CCF series resistor would reduce the board by 40%, going single ended would reduce it by 75% total. So after I check out this layout functionality then I can consider other layout changes.
I will look into the apple remote, it may require a big change in that part of the design.
I will look into the apple remote, it may require a big change in that part of the design.
John,
I found the reason why my three DS1s were not lighting up on power up. The part I had been using for DS1 was the SC56-51PBWA/A on the old boards. It worked fine on the main boards you used previously but it is not the part number listed in the BOM for that board. That was the SA56-51PBWA/A. As that was over three years ago, I don’t recall if it was a substitute for an out-of-stock part or an ordering error on my part. In any event, it worked then but it doesn’t work now.
I replaced them with the surface mount version that Digi-Key stocked and it lit up. All boards defaulted to “7” on DS1 when not connected to the digital board. As the surface mount LSDs are a much lower height than the through hole versions, I changed the other three LSDs on all three boards to the surface mount versions as well. They provide the same results, with all LEDs producing random numbers, but now all LSDs are the same height. Connecting to the digital board(s) does not produce any difference in behavior. With the exception that the mute selection, when it works, maintains state for much longer than when the digital board is disconnected. But even its operation in highly interment. It is as if the digital board wasn’t connected at all.
I went over the digital and display board installations on my three sets of boards in detail looking for any variation from the parts list but found none. I even built another display board to check the assembly more closely. I built it out to surface mount U12, which I need to get from you because of its custom programing, and the rotary encoder, which I left off for access to U12 for installation. I also built two sets of cables to ensure that it wasn’t a cable problem but received the same results
.
I figure the best thing to do is send you a digital and a display board with a set of cables for evaluation. I will also send the new display board with an unattached encoder. It was built separately from the others and may work differently. Based on my troubleshooting I suspect the problem is the display board or the cables. The digital board is so simple it is almost impossible to install incorrectly.
Having built out your original mainboard system three times with no serious problems other that a cut trace on one that was easy to solve through trouble shooting and some minor flakey cable problems, I am skeptical that this is a building error. If not a display board issue it cable alignment. But the cables are built as instructed. I’m lost.
Regards,
Roy
I found the reason why my three DS1s were not lighting up on power up. The part I had been using for DS1 was the SC56-51PBWA/A on the old boards. It worked fine on the main boards you used previously but it is not the part number listed in the BOM for that board. That was the SA56-51PBWA/A. As that was over three years ago, I don’t recall if it was a substitute for an out-of-stock part or an ordering error on my part. In any event, it worked then but it doesn’t work now.
I replaced them with the surface mount version that Digi-Key stocked and it lit up. All boards defaulted to “7” on DS1 when not connected to the digital board. As the surface mount LSDs are a much lower height than the through hole versions, I changed the other three LSDs on all three boards to the surface mount versions as well. They provide the same results, with all LEDs producing random numbers, but now all LSDs are the same height. Connecting to the digital board(s) does not produce any difference in behavior. With the exception that the mute selection, when it works, maintains state for much longer than when the digital board is disconnected. But even its operation in highly interment. It is as if the digital board wasn’t connected at all.
I went over the digital and display board installations on my three sets of boards in detail looking for any variation from the parts list but found none. I even built another display board to check the assembly more closely. I built it out to surface mount U12, which I need to get from you because of its custom programing, and the rotary encoder, which I left off for access to U12 for installation. I also built two sets of cables to ensure that it wasn’t a cable problem but received the same results
.
I figure the best thing to do is send you a digital and a display board with a set of cables for evaluation. I will also send the new display board with an unattached encoder. It was built separately from the others and may work differently. Based on my troubleshooting I suspect the problem is the display board or the cables. The digital board is so simple it is almost impossible to install incorrectly.
Having built out your original mainboard system three times with no serious problems other that a cut trace on one that was easy to solve through trouble shooting and some minor flakey cable problems, I am skeptical that this is a building error. If not a display board issue it cable alignment. But the cables are built as instructed. I’m lost.
Regards,
Roy
The input selection display LED should be Common Anode which on the BOM is SAxxx. The volume display LEDs are Common Cathode shown on the BOM as SCxxx. Using the opposite type will not light up.
I would be happy to trouble shoot any boards for you. I have a working set here and can swap in the display board to see where the problem is to start with.
I would be happy to trouble shoot any boards for you. I have a working set here and can swap in the display board to see where the problem is to start with.
Tonight I did some experiments with infrared LED emitters in the remote control. Of the half dozen I tested all worked to one degree or other but the best part was the Osram SFH 4545, Mouser carriers it under part number 720-SFH4545 for $0.77 each. It transmits farther and tighter beam than the original part I have been using.
John,
I will send an extra set of boards as well so you can trace them. I have never had a problem with JLCPCB boards before. I was hoping to be able to send you a pair of X-BOSOZ amps with the boards; however, I found a little too much variation in the matched quad of 610s for my taste on one board.
Regards,
Roy
I will send an extra set of boards as well so you can trace them. I have never had a problem with JLCPCB boards before. I was hoping to be able to send you a pair of X-BOSOZ amps with the boards; however, I found a little too much variation in the matched quad of 610s for my taste on one board.
Regards,
Roy
John,
I completed your X-BOSOZ boards. All 610s are within about 3V at operating temperature, and am ready to send them out. It turns out that I forgot to send one of the completed display boards. I sent you the additional one that I had completed everything but the EPROM and the rotary switch and the blank board, but somehow forgot to include one of the three that I had completed. I will send it along with the X-BOSOZ boards.
Brian at Twisted Pear told me that he has a substantial number of power supply boards that he would give away for shipping. They were left over from the original distribution. Russ originally created the board and Brian distributed the boards through Twisted Pear web site as not-for-profit "group buy" item back around 2006.
Due to an intermittent power supply problem which required a number of 610 quad changes, I had a need for another board, which, are of course unobtainable now. I reverse engineered the PCB using Eagle and sent the gerbers to JLCPCB. The have the same form factor and test the same as the original. I contacted Brian and he didn’t see any reason why I couldn’t post the gerbers. Which I need to do now that the testing is complete.
In any event, you should contact Brain at Twisted Pear Audio about getting as pair of the power supply boards.
Regards,
Roy
I completed your X-BOSOZ boards. All 610s are within about 3V at operating temperature, and am ready to send them out. It turns out that I forgot to send one of the completed display boards. I sent you the additional one that I had completed everything but the EPROM and the rotary switch and the blank board, but somehow forgot to include one of the three that I had completed. I will send it along with the X-BOSOZ boards.
Brian at Twisted Pear told me that he has a substantial number of power supply boards that he would give away for shipping. They were left over from the original distribution. Russ originally created the board and Brian distributed the boards through Twisted Pear web site as not-for-profit "group buy" item back around 2006.
Due to an intermittent power supply problem which required a number of 610 quad changes, I had a need for another board, which, are of course unobtainable now. I reverse engineered the PCB using Eagle and sent the gerbers to JLCPCB. The have the same form factor and test the same as the original. I contacted Brian and he didn’t see any reason why I couldn’t post the gerbers. Which I need to do now that the testing is complete.
In any event, you should contact Brain at Twisted Pear Audio about getting as pair of the power supply boards.
Regards,
Roy
I look forward to seeing all the boards.
Tonight I finished building up a different volume only board for a commercial preamp and found I had messed up the layout on its display board. I learned that making a double sided board with surface mount parts on both sides should be straight forward but the software shows a through the board view for the back side and I should have clicked MIRROR when looking at the back side for a proper view but didn't and laid out out the backside with reversed parts. After I fixed my goof and turned new gerbers I ordered 10 more boards, only $5 but $22.75 shipping and a 10 day delay on testing and then listening to those CCF60 resistors. Oh well, never too old to learn new stuff.
Tonight I finished building up a different volume only board for a commercial preamp and found I had messed up the layout on its display board. I learned that making a double sided board with surface mount parts on both sides should be straight forward but the software shows a through the board view for the back side and I should have clicked MIRROR when looking at the back side for a proper view but didn't and laid out out the backside with reversed parts. After I fixed my goof and turned new gerbers I ordered 10 more boards, only $5 but $22.75 shipping and a 10 day delay on testing and then listening to those CCF60 resistors. Oh well, never too old to learn new stuff.
I just typed a lengthy message and lost it when they started backing up the system. So here goes again.
This morning I received two boxes in the mail from Roy with boards to troubleshoot and a couple Zen boards. Thanks for those. So I started on the boards after dinner. I reviewed the display raw board and it looked good. Next I looked at the built display board, first for solder shorts and opens, looked good. Then I compared the board components with the BOM and that was correct so I pulled my preamp from the system and removed the top and the faceplate and substituted the display board in and powered up and it worked. I tested the rotary encoder and the display went up and down, I tested the input select and mute buttons and they worked so I used my remote and it responded correctly.
So I did the same with the digital board, it looked good so I hooked it up to my standalone power supply and the tested display board with Roy’s cables, powered up and no joy. Swapped the cables around and got partial results. So I swapped in one of my cables and got even different results. Then I realized that I had screwed up on the silk screening, on my first boards I had the Cable A and B labels reversed. I had scrapped off the silkscreen on my boards and used a permanent marker on them but forgot to update the gerbers. On this post I have updated display board gerbers. When I reversed the cables half the board worked swapping in one of my cables had it working correctly. I then opened the bad cables ends and recrimped but no joy. I then found that the bad cable had a blue work at pin 1 on one end but not the other. After fixing the cable it worked well.
So for finding my error I will install an EEPROM and rotary encoder on your other display board and test it also before sending back in on Wednesday.
This morning I received two boxes in the mail from Roy with boards to troubleshoot and a couple Zen boards. Thanks for those. So I started on the boards after dinner. I reviewed the display raw board and it looked good. Next I looked at the built display board, first for solder shorts and opens, looked good. Then I compared the board components with the BOM and that was correct so I pulled my preamp from the system and removed the top and the faceplate and substituted the display board in and powered up and it worked. I tested the rotary encoder and the display went up and down, I tested the input select and mute buttons and they worked so I used my remote and it responded correctly.
So I did the same with the digital board, it looked good so I hooked it up to my standalone power supply and the tested display board with Roy’s cables, powered up and no joy. Swapped the cables around and got partial results. So I swapped in one of my cables and got even different results. Then I realized that I had screwed up on the silk screening, on my first boards I had the Cable A and B labels reversed. I had scrapped off the silkscreen on my boards and used a permanent marker on them but forgot to update the gerbers. On this post I have updated display board gerbers. When I reversed the cables half the board worked swapping in one of my cables had it working correctly. I then opened the bad cables ends and recrimped but no joy. I then found that the bad cable had a blue work at pin 1 on one end but not the other. After fixing the cable it worked well.
So for finding my error I will install an EEPROM and rotary encoder on your other display board and test it also before sending back in on Wednesday.
John,
Thanks for your work trouble shooting. Good to hear that I wasn't wrong about the boards. I had checked them enough times that I was sure they were built according to the BOM. Being a pioneer always gets you arrows in the back, It just comes with the territory.
If I understand you correctly, reversing the cables from "A" to "B" on one of the boards should resolve the issue if the cables are built correctly.
The cable problem is a bit of a mystery to me. I built two sets of cables and in both cases, triple checked that the same pin was facing the dot on both boards. To make this work, it required turning the head of one cable over, so it went on reversed from the other. In other words, if the cable was held horizontally, one end of the cable was facing up and the other down. This got the same pin facing the dot on both sides.
Since the dots are on the "inside" of the boards, they are then flipped with the finishing "reversing connector, so they would connect from the "outside" of the board. This "flipping", where you run the cable over top of the header and clamp it in place with the finishing clamp makes the orientation a bit confusing and more than once I pulled it off to insure, they were correctly aligned.
Are you sure that the silk screen dots for the cables are in the correct locations? I could see if it were a bad cable but following the correct orientation was the last thing, I would have thought that I got wrong.
I will need to study that corrected cable when you return it and compare it with the other one to believe I had made that mistake.
Slightly off topic, I have attached the link to the Twisted Pear version, where the current action is taking place. The schematic goes back to Metalman and he more correctly calls it a CC-CCS-X-BZLS.
My Take on X-BOSOZ
One snag is that the power supply boards that Brian felt he had in abundance turned out to be for another circuit. They are simple to build from scratch, I did for Kari's version back about 10 years ago but if I get a chance next week, I will look at cloning that board with Eagle as well. It will be a little more difficult as I don't have any empty board to work from.
Regards,
Roy
Thanks for your work trouble shooting. Good to hear that I wasn't wrong about the boards. I had checked them enough times that I was sure they were built according to the BOM. Being a pioneer always gets you arrows in the back
, It just comes with the territory.If I understand you correctly, reversing the cables from "A" to "B" on one of the boards should resolve the issue if the cables are built correctly.
The cable problem is a bit of a mystery to me. I built two sets of cables and in both cases, triple checked that the same pin was facing the dot on both boards. To make this work, it required turning the head of one cable over, so it went on reversed from the other. In other words, if the cable was held horizontally, one end of the cable was facing up and the other down. This got the same pin facing the dot on both sides.
Since the dots are on the "inside" of the boards, they are then flipped with the finishing "reversing connector, so they would connect from the "outside" of the board. This "flipping", where you run the cable over top of the header and clamp it in place with the finishing clamp makes the orientation a bit confusing and more than once I pulled it off to insure, they were correctly aligned.
Are you sure that the silk screen dots for the cables are in the correct locations? I could see if it were a bad cable but following the correct orientation was the last thing, I would have thought that I got wrong.
I will need to study that corrected cable when you return it and compare it with the other one to believe I had made that mistake.
Slightly off topic, I have attached the link to the Twisted Pear version, where the current action is taking place. The schematic goes back to Metalman and he more correctly calls it a CC-CCS-X-BZLS.
My Take on X-BOSOZ
One snag is that the power supply boards that Brian felt he had in abundance turned out to be for another circuit. They are simple to build from scratch, I did for Kari's version back about 10 years ago but if I get a chance next week, I will look at cloning that board with Eagle as well. It will be a little more difficult as I don't have any empty board to work from.
Regards,
Roy
On the slightly off topic subject, if you point me at the schematic and BOM for the power supply board I can create a board layout PCB gerbers in a couple evenings of work.
On the making of cables, yeah the direction and orientation of the cables can be a bit fun.
Looking at a connecter, it has a triangle on one side flat to indicate pin 1. So, holding the connector horizontally, looking at one end, you can have the cable come out to either the right or the left, and you can have either edge of the cable towards you. So you have four options and only one will be right for the board connection. And using the strain relief only makes it more complicated. Fortunately I am good with spatial visualization.
The silkscreen dots for pin one are correct on the boards. If you are using the strain reliefs on the connectors then you would have the cable going in over the digital board before applying the stain relief which will fold the cable over and out away from the digital board. The other end of the cable only matters that the same pin 1 wire goes to pin 1 at the other end.
So I will finish and test your other display board tonight and put it all in the mail Wednesday afternoon.
On the making of cables, yeah the direction and orientation of the cables can be a bit fun.
Looking at a connecter, it has a triangle on one side flat to indicate pin 1. So, holding the connector horizontally, looking at one end, you can have the cable come out to either the right or the left, and you can have either edge of the cable towards you. So you have four options and only one will be right for the board connection. And using the strain relief only makes it more complicated. Fortunately I am good with spatial visualization.
The silkscreen dots for pin one are correct on the boards. If you are using the strain reliefs on the connectors then you would have the cable going in over the digital board before applying the stain relief which will fold the cable over and out away from the digital board. The other end of the cable only matters that the same pin 1 wire goes to pin 1 at the other end.
So I will finish and test your other display board tonight and put it all in the mail Wednesday afternoon.
Got the email so will start on the X-BOSOZ PS board tomorrow, but tonight I finished the other display board, added the EEPROM and a rotary encoder, didn't realize you had provided one but I had several so no problem. I didn't solder the retainer legs so you can change it if you don't like it. Connected to the digital board and powered up. The mute and input selection worked but the rotary encoder did not change the volume setting. The remote worked for all function so that isolated the problem to the encoder and decoder. Put a scope on it and no pulses out of the decoder so I followed the traces from the encoder to the decoder and found a open trace from pin 4 of the encoder to R3, so no pulses. Scrapped some solder mask off the trace and put on a wire patch. Powered up and it works. All goes back in the mail tomorrow.
Last edited:
John,
I checked my schematic and now understand the circuit path you are talking about that was open. I checked the two built-out boards I have left, and the traces were present, i.e., there was continuity between S1 and U2, pin 4. (Of my five, you have the other two built-out boards and a blank one). Was the trace absent or defective on the board with the problem? It other words, did I receive a bad board from JLCPCB or was this something that I may have caused?
Regards,
Roy
I checked my schematic and now understand the circuit path you are talking about that was open. I checked the two built-out boards I have left, and the traces were present, i.e., there was continuity between S1 and U2, pin 4. (Of my five, you have the other two built-out boards and a blank one). Was the trace absent or defective on the board with the problem? It other words, did I receive a bad board from JLCPCB or was this something that I may have caused?
Regards,
Roy