Try post #5 Here:http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/128860-tad-tl-1603-onken-cabinet.html
I think you will want to select a lower Q driver though....
I've used the Calculator in Open Office's spreadsheet program, and it's difficult to find modern drivers that will give results that either don't require immense boxes, or over long vents.
Good luck!
John
I think you will want to select a lower Q driver though....
I've used the Calculator in Open Office's spreadsheet program, and it's difficult to find modern drivers that will give results that either don't require immense boxes, or over long vents.
Good luck!
John
Thank you! You are indeed correct, the result is a volume size and or vent size that are far too large. I'll keep the sheet for reference should I need it for another design.
I've been casting about for a modern driver to play with a Thuras style resistive vent alignment for a speaker design I'd like to investigate. This is similar to Onken, but predates it.
I searched up the Thuras patent w/google, but I'm not sure how to go from there to a modern driver. There were no T&S parameters when the patent was issued.
Maybe GM will chime in here....He knows more about this subject........
John
I searched up the Thuras patent w/google, but I'm not sure how to go from there to a modern driver. There were no T&S parameters when the patent was issued.
Maybe GM will chime in here....He knows more about this subject........
John
I also tried this Pioneer woofer to no avail. I think if I played with it more I could get something that worked well.
Pioneer A30IR50-51F 12" Butyl Surround Woofer | Parts-Express.com
The problem again was the vent length, but not nearly as much as the original Dayton woofer, likely due to the lower Qts. The alignment was in the 5 cubic foot range (~140 liters) with an F3 in the high 29 hz range, the latter of which is ideal for me.
One of the problems that I am having is choosing the correct port area. The spreadsheet says 15% of driver SD, but that seems rather small for the style of cabinet. Other references say as much as 80% (I think), which make the vent lengths exceedingly long.
Very interesting enclosure. I like the look of old school equipment, which is why I was looking into these. I'm wondering if for my particular driver if I should design a fonken "style" enclosure using my ideal reflex enclosure parameters with the vent at the bottom with a smaller vent area. Cool stuff 🙂
The Pioneer woofer has an even bigger response peak just above crossover then the Dayton. I think you will have difficulty dealing with that in an Econowave application.
I was just listening to an Econowave with a Dayton DC300 in a 5 cu.ft. box tuned to 25 hz with a single 4 inch diameter port and it was a perfectly reasonable tuning for the woofer. It is a bit limited in power handling however. I was driving it with a Dynaco Stereo 70 and that's about all the power it can take, but it was played pretty darn loud at that power level.
Just a quick question, if you want to use two (identical) drivers in one Onken enclosure, what do you change in Onken_Calc.xls? In another words, how do you calculate dimensions for two drivers? I am experimenting with Visaton BG-20
in this DIY project:
Pentaton Full Range - 99 dB 1W/m
Oliver
in this DIY project:
Pentaton Full Range - 99 dB 1W/m
Oliver
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ONKEN ENCLOSURES BUILD
Hello diyaudio members,
I builded ONKEN cabinet 2 years later. It's not easy. In first time and for me you must respect the datas of HIRAGA cabinet and of Altec speaker 416 8A or 515 E ( the real datas ).
In second time you must find the good plywood and if you find this you can't cut this because it's very hard. Only professional tools can cut this.
And after you must choise a very good solution and crossover for the mid range and the treble.
If you realise that the ONKEN cabinet with a good mid range and treble solutions ( for exemple 950 PB whith IWATA horn and T925A ) and good amplifiers ( 300B, 845, PASS) and good crossover ( DCX2496 modified ) is the must of hight end sound systeme in a classic room ( 50 m2 mini ).
Hello diyaudio members,
I builded ONKEN cabinet 2 years later. It's not easy. In first time and for me you must respect the datas of HIRAGA cabinet and of Altec speaker 416 8A or 515 E ( the real datas ).
In second time you must find the good plywood and if you find this you can't cut this because it's very hard. Only professional tools can cut this.
And after you must choise a very good solution and crossover for the mid range and the treble.
If you realise that the ONKEN cabinet with a good mid range and treble solutions ( for exemple 950 PB whith IWATA horn and T925A ) and good amplifiers ( 300B, 845, PASS) and good crossover ( DCX2496 modified ) is the must of hight end sound systeme in a classic room ( 50 m2 mini ).
Hi diyaudio'er,
I'm planning to build ONKEN cabinet for Nirvana NEO15' speaker driver. I used the excel file calculation for Onken box as attached. If I use 👎 factor as recommended (5.7 ~6.4) so may leading the box's vol coming to big; ~450littre. The question is: In case I use 👎 smaller as ~4, there's any bad effect to the sound?
Anyone experience with this case? please help!
With many thanks and BR!
I'm planning to build ONKEN cabinet for Nirvana NEO15' speaker driver. I used the excel file calculation for Onken box as attached. If I use 👎 factor as recommended (5.7 ~6.4) so may leading the box's vol coming to big; ~450littre. The question is: In case I use 👎 smaller as ~4, there's any bad effect to the sound?
Anyone experience with this case? please help!
With many thanks and BR!
Bassreflex tuning math is basic filter theory. Imagine a sheet of paper were some discrete points on the paper represent Onken, Bessel and Butterworth tuning, the surfaces between these points represent "hybrid" tunings. If you go to Klang & Ton 3/2005 they have a Onken looking type of cabinet. In any modern modeling program you can use the Onken layout and model any tuning. I will build Onken type cabinets very similar to the K&T box using Eminence drivers. Onken tuning was not possible so I use some tweaked sligtly overdamped tuning that should work well with room gain to get deeper bass and still far more output than I need at home. So run the n 4 in a modeling program and see how it looks 😉
Hmm, missed this one and I assume you have long since gotten your answer, but just for the record:
Parallel wired = Re/2
Series wired = Re*2
Double Mms/d and Sd to double Vas
Change the Svent dimensions to double it
GM
edit: What did you wind up building?
Absolutely! There's nothing special about the Onken other than the somewhat resistive vent system, so based on published specs the AN driver with 3 ohms series resistance will work in as little as ~200 L.
Designing a room friendly rolled off response in BoxPlot using a ~35 cm max vent length with a < 0.5 vent mach at max power as a guide, then converting it for the Onken calculator gives a minimum net Vb:
n = ~1.45
Sd'/Sd = ~0.169
Anyway, it gives 'Pointed' a size range to work with.
GM
Hello,
Be careful, If you want use two speakers, you will prefer the W ONKEN. The ONKEN isn't calculate to support two speakers. The position fo the speaker, the dimensions of the box had calculated with the gold number. And the volume of the box optimum for a normale room ( 50 m² to 100 m²)is arround 300L / Box. Is it possible but never the result will near of the original. The ONKEN is a BASSREFLEX inclosure and you have the possibility to calculate the parameters with a modern program ( Winds for exemple ).
It's simple necessairy to respect the information of the events.
For N4 isn't a big problem, the sound will a little defferent but just a little.
Cdt.
EBA
Be careful, If you want use two speakers, you will prefer the W ONKEN. The ONKEN isn't calculate to support two speakers. The position fo the speaker, the dimensions of the box had calculated with the gold number. And the volume of the box optimum for a normale room ( 50 m² to 100 m²)is arround 300L / Box. Is it possible but never the result will near of the original. The ONKEN is a BASSREFLEX inclosure and you have the possibility to calculate the parameters with a modern program ( Winds for exemple ).
It's simple necessairy to respect the information of the events.
For N4 isn't a big problem, the sound will a little defferent but just a little.
Cdt.
EBA
I do not get the Onken W. The (regular) Onken has extremly large ports, as large as the driver and they have an unusal placement along the side walls. The Onken W have really small ports way smaller than the combined surface area of the two driver, so what they share other than name I do not know.
With regard to that golden ratio stuff that would stop two 10" or two 12" driver to be used instead of one 15" in the Onken. If ports, box dimentions, driver placement and brace placements are all interlocked in some intricate balancing act critical for the performance of the system, then changes to tune for drivers of other T/S parameters would be impossible😱 I am sceptical until proven other wrong 🙂
With regard to that golden ratio stuff that would stop two 10" or two 12" driver to be used instead of one 15" in the Onken. If ports, box dimentions, driver placement and brace placements are all interlocked in some intricate balancing act critical for the performance of the system, then changes to tune for drivers of other T/S parameters would be impossible😱 I am sceptical until proven other wrong 🙂
Greets!
As I noted in my previous post, there’s nothing particularly special about any of the Onkens and the W’s only ‘claim to fame’ is its dual sand filled wall construction.
WRT using a golden or acoustic ratio, this is just good design when the cab becomes large enough for its eigenmodes to be low enough in frequency to potentially audibly modulate the driver.
For a golden ratio cab with height being the longest dimension, the driver offset from the inside top [i.d.] should be slightly less than midway at H x ~ 0.462, so for vertically oriented dual drivers this would be the mid-point between the two. If a tall, high aspect ratio cab is used, then H x ~ 0.349 has proven to work well.
Any bracing should always be such that panels don’t vibrate to any degree and divided up such that there are no multiples to potentially combine, like happens with square, etc., room modes. Last, but not least, there should be some bracing to tie all six/whatever sides together to ensure the cab can’t ‘breathe’. This should include at least a driver support and preferably mass load it to the cab such as running a brace from the rear panel to the back of the driver that puts in slight tension.
Proper bracing allows thinner wall cab construction, unless of course one just likes having heavy cabs as I do due to having a suspended floor construction, though my back doesn’t. 🙁
GM
As I noted in my previous post, there’s nothing particularly special about any of the Onkens and the W’s only ‘claim to fame’ is its dual sand filled wall construction.
WRT using a golden or acoustic ratio, this is just good design when the cab becomes large enough for its eigenmodes to be low enough in frequency to potentially audibly modulate the driver.
For a golden ratio cab with height being the longest dimension, the driver offset from the inside top [i.d.] should be slightly less than midway at H x ~ 0.462, so for vertically oriented dual drivers this would be the mid-point between the two. If a tall, high aspect ratio cab is used, then H x ~ 0.349 has proven to work well.
Any bracing should always be such that panels don’t vibrate to any degree and divided up such that there are no multiples to potentially combine, like happens with square, etc., room modes. Last, but not least, there should be some bracing to tie all six/whatever sides together to ensure the cab can’t ‘breathe’. This should include at least a driver support and preferably mass load it to the cab such as running a brace from the rear panel to the back of the driver that puts in slight tension.
Proper bracing allows thinner wall cab construction, unless of course one just likes having heavy cabs as I do due to having a suspended floor construction, though my back doesn’t. 🙁
GM
Hello GM and DrBoar,
I agree with you, it's possible to change all the parameters for all boxes and for all the speakers, use WINDS program is very easy! 😛
But GM and DrBoar had you build ONKEN 360 or ONKEN (with 414) or mini ONKEN with 10C01 or ONKEN "360" with Audiom 15 (small volume 150l)?
What are the different sound results with their boxes? Had you really listen to the results of their boxes?😕
Why M. KOISUMI chosen an event area equal of the speaker?
Why M.KOISUMI chosen to use different events for the ONKEN W?
Why M. KOISUMI chosen special plywood?
Why M.HIRAGA when he tried to change the volume of the ONKEN 360 for an optimization for the FOCAL Audiom 15 speaker, the result is good but not enaugh?
Why the ideal cut off of the ONKEN 360 is around 300 HZ?
What are the optimization problems of the W ONKEN ( 2 speakers )?
To day, calculate a box for one or two speakers and discuss about that is very easy, but it's more difficult to have a very good result.😉
Best regards.
EBA
I agree with you, it's possible to change all the parameters for all boxes and for all the speakers, use WINDS program is very easy! 😛
But GM and DrBoar had you build ONKEN 360 or ONKEN (with 414) or mini ONKEN with 10C01 or ONKEN "360" with Audiom 15 (small volume 150l)?
What are the different sound results with their boxes? Had you really listen to the results of their boxes?😕
Why M. KOISUMI chosen an event area equal of the speaker?
Why M.KOISUMI chosen to use different events for the ONKEN W?
Why M. KOISUMI chosen special plywood?
Why M.HIRAGA when he tried to change the volume of the ONKEN 360 for an optimization for the FOCAL Audiom 15 speaker, the result is good but not enaugh?
Why the ideal cut off of the ONKEN 360 is around 300 HZ?
What are the optimization problems of the W ONKEN ( 2 speakers )?
To day, calculate a box for one or two speakers and discuss about that is very easy, but it's more difficult to have a very good result.😉
Best regards.
EBA
Why do people want to build a onken? When you know more you see it is a passed station.
Big enclosure.
High group delay
High cut of frequency
Bad polar behaviour for a normal room
Why not build this:
Very small volume
High efficiency
Low group delay
Low cut of frequency
Predictable polar behaviour so you can use it in a room.
Here a example
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/204444-photoshoot-ob-mk1-least-they-sound-good-2.html
The reson that this is now possible and it was not possible in the past is that there are now a lot of big xmax loudspeakers with good efficiency available. And you have to come to the conclusion that it is possible to build it this way.
Big enclosure.
High group delay
High cut of frequency
Bad polar behaviour for a normal room
Why not build this:
Very small volume
High efficiency
Low group delay
Low cut of frequency
Predictable polar behaviour so you can use it in a room.
Here a example
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/204444-photoshoot-ob-mk1-least-they-sound-good-2.html
The reson that this is now possible and it was not possible in the past is that there are now a lot of big xmax loudspeakers with good efficiency available. And you have to come to the conclusion that it is possible to build it this way.
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Dear Helmuth,
Firstly each technologie have this advantages and this PB and i respect that.
In my case my ONKEN 360 have :
EFF 98 db. 99,6 db if the cut off is 31,7 Hz, your 94 db is BAD (it's your expression).😉
Cut off : 27 hz for 98 db your 30hz is bad. 😉
Flat response N=5,7 to 27 hz to 300hz +-2db with 20 hz -12db, you have a PB your response isn't flat.😉
For 120 db your systems need arround 300W, my arround 100 w.
In a standard room bettween 50m² to 100m² ins't possible to used the best amp ( small power ) for exemple 300b or 854 or fist watt ....
And the big big probleme, you used a BEYMA 750 TI under. Ok but, you used a speaker with large X and you cut to 550 HZ is very very bad !!!!
This system don't play correctly. All people know that a large bass speaker don't play correctly under arround 200 HZ ( large X ) to ( small X)300 hz.
In my system i cut to 316HZ ( small X, old technologie) 😉.
Have you the T/S of your speaker? There is anather probleme ( acceleration factor) but I need your T/S.😕
OB is an OB please stay in this area HELMUT.
Cdt.
EBA
Firstly each technologie have this advantages and this PB and i respect that.
In my case my ONKEN 360 have :
EFF 98 db. 99,6 db if the cut off is 31,7 Hz, your 94 db is BAD (it's your expression).😉
Cut off : 27 hz for 98 db your 30hz is bad. 😉
Flat response N=5,7 to 27 hz to 300hz +-2db with 20 hz -12db, you have a PB your response isn't flat.😉
For 120 db your systems need arround 300W, my arround 100 w.
In a standard room bettween 50m² to 100m² ins't possible to used the best amp ( small power ) for exemple 300b or 854 or fist watt ....
And the big big probleme, you used a BEYMA 750 TI under. Ok but, you used a speaker with large X and you cut to 550 HZ is very very bad !!!!
This system don't play correctly. All people know that a large bass speaker don't play correctly under arround 200 HZ ( large X ) to ( small X)300 hz.
In my system i cut to 316HZ ( small X, old technologie) 😉.
Have you the T/S of your speaker? There is anather probleme ( acceleration factor) but I need your T/S.😕
OB is an OB please stay in this area HELMUT.
Cdt.
EBA
For TS use the eminence example isn't that hard to read.
Efficiency is with the OB is easy improved with one more driver still much more compact then the onken. And your onken has a much steaper cut off at 30 Hz then still the 30Hz cut off is better with a open baffle.
Can you show me the date of your onken 98dB 1Wmtr seems to me very optimistic. And I did a lot of simulations 98dB is very high 96dB is more realistic.😀
And the back wall reflections with a mono-pool still occurs the dipool acts better in a room. That why your onken only does 94 dB at 30Hz where you think it has 98dB.😀
Phase and linearity are ok at xo you seem not to know what your talking about. The HF driver does not have to work hard in this low power application again your a bit behind on this topic I see here.
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