Greets!
Assuming you're using a very low output impedance SS amp the original large Onken should work fine if your driver is original, but if high output impedance tube driven, then ideally the driver/amp T-S specs needs to be measured.
GM
Assuming you're using a very low output impedance SS amp the original large Onken should work fine if your driver is original, but if high output impedance tube driven, then ideally the driver/amp T-S specs needs to be measured.
GM
is this driver good for an Onken ?
Hi there !
Excuse me for asking this, but I seem to have some trouble working
the numbers in the 'Cyro' spreadsheet for Onken enclosures...
Even if I take known combinations of drivers and their cabinets
I cannot get the right figures !
Reason for asking are a pair of old Philips driver I got,
and I was wondering if these could work in an Onken-style enclosure
Measured T/S (average of two):
Qms 4.27
Qes 0.96
Qts 0.78
Vas 181 ltr.
Re 7.7 ohm
Fs 30 Hz
Sd 0.049 m2
Mms 52 gr
Can any of you help me a little bit ?
Empee
Hi there !
Excuse me for asking this, but I seem to have some trouble working
the numbers in the 'Cyro' spreadsheet for Onken enclosures...
Even if I take known combinations of drivers and their cabinets
I cannot get the right figures !
Reason for asking are a pair of old Philips driver I got,
and I was wondering if these could work in an Onken-style enclosure
Measured T/S (average of two):
Qms 4.27
Qes 0.96
Qts 0.78
Vas 181 ltr.
Re 7.7 ohm
Fs 30 Hz
Sd 0.049 m2
Mms 52 gr
Can any of you help me a little bit ?
Empee
Re: is this driver good for an Onken ?
Yeah - I know....
Have not yet figured that one out.
Maybe GM can help?
Empee said:
Yeah - I know....
Have not yet figured that one out.
Maybe GM can help?
Well, we normally don't know what specs were used or what the output impedance was due to inductors/whatever that effectively increases Qts, so kind of hard to duplicate their results.
Regardless, with such a high Qts, your drivers aren't suitable for a reflex alignment, so that's why you can't get acceptable results for an Onken alignment. Better to use MJK's Classic TL alignments for these. You can probably fold up a TL to look like an Onken with stuffed vents. 😉
GM
Regardless, with such a high Qts, your drivers aren't suitable for a reflex alignment, so that's why you can't get acceptable results for an Onken alignment. Better to use MJK's Classic TL alignments for these. You can probably fold up a TL to look like an Onken with stuffed vents. 😉
GM
I too have ben interested in the Onken cabs for quite a while.
Just the other day, I found an offer for a pair of AUdax PR330MO, a speaker I used for a project some 10-12 years ago. That project had a bass I have seldom heard - deep ,fast and clean.
These cabs were however over 220 liters net, which is somewhat too large for a normal living room. Stuffing these param's into the Onken calculator indicates that this driver is really outside the onken range....judging by what is written here previously, it should be quite ideal..... some 96-97 dB too..
Is soneone could stuff this into MJKs sims, I would be greatful (- I don't have access to a suitable Mathcad version )
Here are the param's:
Fs Qes Qms Qts Vas Re Le Sd Xmax Pe
28 0,28 6,69 0,27 264,0 5,8 0,4 538 5,0 120
Just the other day, I found an offer for a pair of AUdax PR330MO, a speaker I used for a project some 10-12 years ago. That project had a bass I have seldom heard - deep ,fast and clean.
These cabs were however over 220 liters net, which is somewhat too large for a normal living room. Stuffing these param's into the Onken calculator indicates that this driver is really outside the onken range....judging by what is written here previously, it should be quite ideal..... some 96-97 dB too..
Is soneone could stuff this into MJKs sims, I would be greatful (- I don't have access to a suitable Mathcad version )
Here are the param's:
Fs Qes Qms Qts Vas Re Le Sd Xmax Pe
28 0,28 6,69 0,27 264,0 5,8 0,4 538 5,0 120
'Stuff' what in MJK's software? I mean it can't do any auto designing with just loading the driver specs into it.
Depending on how high the cab is, 220 L doesn't seem all that large for a 'normal' size living room, but I realize this varies around the world, so I'm curious what HxWxD you consider 'normal'.
Regardless, yes, this driver's specs fall outside the Onken's rather narrow ideal range, but since the specs otherwise make it OK for a vented alignment there's no reason you can't use it to design a good performing cab using only four vents and a ~0.6Sd vent area in a ~131 L net/39 Hz alignment to get the vent lengths down to around the recommended length limit. MJK's software only allows a summed vent area, but give a good idea of what to expect with a N = 6.34 alignment and 0.25 ohm series resistance added for wiring losses):
L = 32.25"
CSA (WxD)= 248.02"^2
zdriver = 14.93"
Av = 49.6"^2 or four each 12.4"^2 x 13.34" long
All dims approximate and minimal stuffing used, so if the vent pipe's harmonics are a problem higher up, stuff the them to suit, though I assumed a somewhat acoustically resistive 10:1 H:W ratio (4 W x 40 H cm) vent, so will probably be damped enough as is.
GM
Depending on how high the cab is, 220 L doesn't seem all that large for a 'normal' size living room, but I realize this varies around the world, so I'm curious what HxWxD you consider 'normal'.
Regardless, yes, this driver's specs fall outside the Onken's rather narrow ideal range, but since the specs otherwise make it OK for a vented alignment there's no reason you can't use it to design a good performing cab using only four vents and a ~0.6Sd vent area in a ~131 L net/39 Hz alignment to get the vent lengths down to around the recommended length limit. MJK's software only allows a summed vent area, but give a good idea of what to expect with a N = 6.34 alignment and 0.25 ohm series resistance added for wiring losses):
L = 32.25"
CSA (WxD)= 248.02"^2
zdriver = 14.93"
Av = 49.6"^2 or four each 12.4"^2 x 13.34" long
All dims approximate and minimal stuffing used, so if the vent pipe's harmonics are a problem higher up, stuff the them to suit, though I assumed a somewhat acoustically resistive 10:1 H:W ratio (4 W x 40 H cm) vent, so will probably be damped enough as is.
GM
Attachments
Thanks, GM...
although a bit hasty and vague in my last post, that was exactly what I was looking for!
I was fiddling around with the Onken calculator, and setting N=6.4 , the "best Onken setting" , gives an acceptable cab of appx 130litres, and just about sets the vents around the max allowed length of 35 cm.
The sims gives approximately the same results as the Onken calc.
( Maybe I should dig out my high school french dictionaries and fight my way through the original articles..... 🙄 )
although a bit hasty and vague in my last post, that was exactly what I was looking for!
I was fiddling around with the Onken calculator, and setting N=6.4 , the "best Onken setting" , gives an acceptable cab of appx 130litres, and just about sets the vents around the max allowed length of 35 cm.
The sims gives approximately the same results as the Onken calc.
( Maybe I should dig out my high school french dictionaries and fight my way through the original articles..... 🙄 )
AuroraB said:
You're welcome!
Why? I mean Cyr-Marc's SS is correct based on Jean-Michel LeCleac'h's help with mine when it turned out I didn't have all the math.
GM
Nice graph, GM. Thanks for running that!
Looks like it falls off at about 18dB/octave on the bottom. Is that about right?
Looks like it falls off at about 18dB/octave on the bottom. Is that about right?
You're welcome!
Normally it would theoretically be 24 dB/octave, but the large vent is raising the Q a bit, though due to the even higher aspect ratio than I realized it will probably behave more like this with a ~20 dB/octave roll off and reduced peaking:
GM
Normally it would theoretically be 24 dB/octave, but the large vent is raising the Q a bit, though due to the even higher aspect ratio than I realized it will probably behave more like this with a ~20 dB/octave roll off and reduced peaking:
GM
Attachments
Hi all !
as GM said:
...I'm wondering more and more,
what IS the ideal range for an Onken ?
say for a cabinet of ~200 liters volume,
what kind of driver do I have to look for ?
Too bad the calculationsheets don't work the other way around....
Cheers,
Empee
as GM said:
GM said:
...I'm wondering more and more,
what IS the ideal range for an Onken ?
say for a cabinet of ~200 liters volume,
what kind of driver do I have to look for ?
Too bad the calculationsheets don't work the other way around....
Cheers,
Empee
Made this simple spreadsheet based solely on the l´Audiophile article "Petit Onken" with 414-8B.
http://www.revintage.se/Onken.xls
Think you can figure it out even if it is in Swedish😉. Use "Egen" for your own calculations, "414-8B" is locked.
http://www.revintage.se/Onken.xls
Think you can figure it out even if it is in Swedish😉. Use "Egen" for your own calculations, "414-8B" is locked.
Very cool Lars. Tack så mycket!
I see the two different types of calcs - one with Mmd & Sd, the other without.
Now if I can just figure out how to work it backwards - input maybe Vb, Sev & Sd and get the drivers specs....
Hmmm..... Need more coffee!
I see the two different types of calcs - one with Mmd & Sd, the other without.
Now if I can just figure out how to work it backwards - input maybe Vb, Sev & Sd and get the drivers specs....
Hmmm..... Need more coffee!
Hemp FR8c ?
Hi there !
please look at the spreadsheet...
did I really find the perfect driver for a 100 liter cab, finally ??
These are the factory specs for the Hemp FR8c fullrange driver.
will this work ??
And if so, one more question;
because I cannot decide if an F3 of 44Hz is low enough
for home-use (mostly music, occasional movie at nice SPL)
I mean,
what is a "normal" F3 of a good sounding speaker ?
Is it true that a somewhat higher F3 will help reg. placing the speakers (back against a wall), to prevent boomy-ness ?
Hope to read your reply !
Cheers,
Empee
Hi there !
please look at the spreadsheet...
did I really find the perfect driver for a 100 liter cab, finally ??
These are the factory specs for the Hemp FR8c fullrange driver.
will this work ??
And if so, one more question;
because I cannot decide if an F3 of 44Hz is low enough
for home-use (mostly music, occasional movie at nice SPL)
I mean,
what is a "normal" F3 of a good sounding speaker ?
Is it true that a somewhat higher F3 will help reg. placing the speakers (back against a wall), to prevent boomy-ness ?
Hope to read your reply !
Cheers,
Empee
Attachments
For a single 8"er with decent sensitivity, 44Hz is OK. And it's near the driver's Fs anyway.
Is it enough? It's very personal.
It might help playing music with a handy RTA. So you can both listen to and 'look at' the sound.
In most recordings, not much information below 40Hz. But in some others, there'd be a lot! With the help from RTA, you may judge for yourself.
For myself personally, 44Hz is not enough. About another half of octave, say, 32Hz, things would be VERY different. That's for hearing.
(If "feeling" is needed, then you'll need 20 something.)
Is it enough? It's very personal.
It might help playing music with a handy RTA. So you can both listen to and 'look at' the sound.
In most recordings, not much information below 40Hz. But in some others, there'd be a lot! With the help from RTA, you may judge for yourself.
For myself personally, 44Hz is not enough. About another half of octave, say, 32Hz, things would be VERY different. That's for hearing.
(If "feeling" is needed, then you'll need 20 something.)
Here's my Edgar Horn with Onken bass modules ...superb sound, it 'breathes' into the room, unobtrusive fast deep bass.
Concept is a little unusual though, started with a 15" RCF L15-P801 bass driver into about 110L, fast bass and quite good but a little dry and lacking extension. Then put a 11" Focal kevlar 11K7511 pistonic driver into the same box for low bass, retuned the port and stuffing, adjusted internal volume (via sliding rear panel) to about 180L ...voila, best bass I've heard! speed, impact and depth to mid 20Hz.
Regards,
Steve M.
Concept is a little unusual though, started with a 15" RCF L15-P801 bass driver into about 110L, fast bass and quite good but a little dry and lacking extension. Then put a 11" Focal kevlar 11K7511 pistonic driver into the same box for low bass, retuned the port and stuffing, adjusted internal volume (via sliding rear panel) to about 180L ...voila, best bass I've heard! speed, impact and depth to mid 20Hz.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Regards,
Steve M.
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