If your amp has zobels on the output, open them, removing them from the circuit. It might blow your amp from instability. It'll improve the sounstage though, and it's easy.
I've been following along here. Lot's of input, tons of argument, good thread, I've learned some things. I'm replying to the OP's original post because I've just had a bit of a revelation. My work system consists of a B-1/ACA combo into NHT super zeros, all fed from a PC playing Radio Paradise through a Topping DAC. I just upgraded the DAC from a Topping D30 to their E30. The difference was not subtle and reminded me of this thread. The D30 had a nice sound, the image was dead center and had decent definition of the space as small as it was. The E30 on the other hand spread the image across my desk with nice space and instruments and voice placed well in that space.
TL;DR version, upgrading my DAC made a huge difference, more than I would have thought. Perhaps a new amp with a good DAC if you do digital may be just the ticket. . .
I have a hard time believing the DAC alone made those differences. Now, I too know DACs do sound different, but not usually in the way being described. What else changed? E30 is a super DAC, no question about that. ( last of the better AKMs I suspect) I had a D30 Pro briefly, but I tried it in my main system, not on my desk. Imaging comes from environment, speakers and the recording. Differences in DACs are more typically very low level detail and clarity only discernable through very good headphones. Speaking decent DACs of course. There are still some real garbage out there, some for a lot of money!
I seriously doubt this claim if properly designed. Any phase shift will be above audible frequencies. Removing it may pass some harmonics that could artificially "brighten" the sound a tad and some IM from the drivers gets reflected back into the feedback loop. A few micro ohms and distortion from the choke will on paper, add distortion, but relative, insignificant. Or maybe you are talking about the cheap amps that use electrolytic caps and wire wound resistors? Bad design is, well bad design.
I have to say it surprised me too. I had to look to be sure I did not mix R & L channels. All I did was swap out the DAC. I was so surprised I recalled this thread and posted to it. It's not perfect by any stretch, it's just that the difference in the width was / is not subtle.
There aren't any scientific studies that verify that modern DACs or ADCs affect sound audibly. There are many thousands of opinions based on subjective (sighted/biased) observation.
To be clear, a subjective opinion is not invaid so long as it's recognized as such. When a subjective opinion is published or communicated, it becomes a source of expectation bias, particularly when the source has any sort of credentials. When enough subjective opinions are in agreement, the result is a strong reinforcing bias, not verification.
To be clear, a subjective opinion is not invaid so long as it's recognized as such. When a subjective opinion is published or communicated, it becomes a source of expectation bias, particularly when the source has any sort of credentials. When enough subjective opinions are in agreement, the result is a strong reinforcing bias, not verification.
There is no modification that a DAC could do that would increase soundstage perspective and not also degrade other performance aspects, other than a level mismatch.
The two I've done it to (onkyo M-5000, sony str-K700 - they haven't blown yet, but I haven't used the M-5000 a whole lot either) had mylar and I think mox resistors. They looked regular anyway, I wasn't paying much attention to them. I don't claim to have any credentials either, the fewer the better.
Definitely a darker rather than brighter sound. I don't have any zobels in my speakers either, I don't know it that affects it or not. I would have to chore through the screenshots I have somewhere, but I saw charts of phase in the low mids that showed faster changes (not more angle) in phase with zobels than without. I don't know why it sounds better, but I'm sold. Might blow the amp though
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By multiple testing, I have concluded positively something the DAC either does, or pass, can cause some tweeters, on some material, to have a very brash sound around 3100 Hz. Female vocals and cymbals are flat wrong. All these DAC's are SNAID supurb, ruler flat and static distortion below what anyone should hear, but it is clear. I do not have the equipment to measure it, but I believe it is harmonics upsetting tweeter breakup range, and the resulting IM is down in the mids. I can make it come and go at will. The AKM DAC in my SCHIIT and the Topping D30 pro sounded identical, except they had this symptom. The Atom DAC+ reduces it tremendously. Switching tweeters, they all sound the same. So, SCHIIT & Topping are different from JDS. The build I just completed, RS125's and XT25G30's, sound the same Schiit to JDS. ( I sent the topping back) They don't have the top end clarity the Seas mg domes had, but that is the difference in the top octave of a well behave soft dome and a extended range but ill-behaved metal dome. Actually, the LP I put on the tweeters is too aggressive. Reducing it tomorrow.
Now, what could the DAC be doing differently? Well output filtering implementation is one big one to be looked at. That is one place the OEMs have some flexibility. To that extent, some higher priced DACs offer choices in it.
We all understand the various versions of placebo effect. We also must realize one can train themselves to focus on a very narrow aspect and differentiate far in excess of a "normal" listener. The problem I mention above I have been chasing for close to two decades and had concluded it was just the source (a lot of it is) but in my recent system refresh, I dug in deeper and think I understand it. I have eliminated it on my desktop, in my HT, and reduced it in my main stereo. ( parts on order for one last speaker build)
To add to that, while investigating this, I bought some new very clean headphones. HD560's. None of the DACs had the glare issue. I think, and can not swear to it so maybe my imagination, the Topping did have more detail down low. Real low level compared to the Schiit. Could be someone who used cans more than I do and have some of those $5000 super ones, and ears 40 years junior, could hear some of what the slick-page reviewers gush on about. Through my speakers, it is not only moot, it is mute.
A difference in eq will effect the soundstage considerably. Depress broadly the mids, and the center stage will recede. Crank it up to the infamous Just Bloody Loud speaker EQ, and the center jumps out at you. A speaker out of phase will for sure collapse the image. ( had one tweeter out of phase once, took a while as I could not put my finger on it. Double checked and found the brain fart. )
It would be interesting if Bill could have others hear the two without any previous mention about what to expect. Just "what do you hear" Nothing leading. I too am not aware of anything in hardware save equalization or a speaker out of phase that will effect imaging. I won't go so far as to say it can't happen.
It sounds like something is broken. No properly designed and operating DAC should do that.
See below.
This should be very easy to find. Again...see below.
But you're not doing any measurements? Wow you have more patience than I by miles. If something's not working for me, I get out the tools and find the reason.
Good info. The headphones are not driven by the same thing/amp that drives the speakers then, right?
You do have the equipment to measure. Everybody does. Google Room EQ Wizard (REW), download and install. Extremely high resolution audio testing is available with that app, and it's free. You can use two interfaces, and use one to check the other. To do that, you have to open two instances of REW, and set each one to a different interface. Generate test signals out of the "bad" one, input them directly to the "good" one, and make any tests you like. Two basic methods, one is to use the "Measure" function and do chirps. You can get THD plots that way. Or you can use the RTA (set to "spectrum", not fractional octave) and do THD, IMD, and even multi-tone IMD. If you generate, for example, a multi-tone block of tones above 10kHz, you can look for spurs in the mid-band area. You can actually nearly replicate Jensen's "Spectral Contamination" concept.
I can help if you run into issues, but the help files are quite good.
I had no problems with transistor amplifiers and cables with normal diameters (1.5 mm) and long according to a home environment, however, there may be isolated cases like the one I copy and paste below
https://www.pcpaudio.com/pcpfiles/doc_altavoces/cables/cables.php
" In an 8 Ohm speaker, 12.5W RMS means that 1.25 Amps pass through the speaker and the voltage difference across the speaker contacts is 10 Volts. 1.25 A is a very respectable amount, and 10 V is a fairly small amount, given by a battery that everyone can buy in a supermarket.
The output stages of transistor amplifiers are adapted to supply voltage, and this is what they control.
To understand each other in a few words, we will say that the coils "work" with current and the capacitors with voltage. It is easy to control what current passes through a coil, but it is more difficult to know its voltage, and the opposite happens with capacitors.
As a consequence of the high currents, low voltages, and very low output impedance (or damping factor if you prefer), the effects of inductance are very pernicious, and those of capacitance are quite innocuous. The latest cables to hit the market are cables with relatively high capacities, and very low resistance and inductance.
In the case of a transistor amplifier, it is better to have a cable with high capacity and minimum inductance, if it is necessary to choose between these two phenomena. In this aspect, it is quite possible, with a high-capacity cable and a high-inductance speaker, that the oscillating amplifier. This is solved with a Zobel RC network. "
Attachments
I have two Zoudio amps with XMOS USB to I2S converters. One of this converters is a JLSounds, one is a Chinese board retrofitted with better clock chips. I swapped amps between my two systems (living room and bedroom) putting the JLSounds driven amp into the bedroom where I am now. I can hear the improvement in soundstage detail when my "signal" goes through the JLSounds board.
The JLSounds board has slightly better clocks and has true galvanic isolation between the USB port and the I2S output. The I2S side has it's own +5V powersupply, tapping off the 20V power to the amplifier.
From this experience I'd say yes - a "better" amplifier would improve the perception of soundstage. By amplifier, I mean the whole signal chain from source to speaker. I'm sure the Denon AVR engineers didnt concern themselves with ps of jitter in Xtal oscillators the way the guy who designed the JLSounds board did. It does only one function; USB to I2S, yet, its effect on the sound is clear to me.
I'd have to believe that DACs - due to attention paid to such details inside them - could sound different as well. Some better than others.
The JLSounds board has slightly better clocks and has true galvanic isolation between the USB port and the I2S output. The I2S side has it's own +5V powersupply, tapping off the 20V power to the amplifier.
From this experience I'd say yes - a "better" amplifier would improve the perception of soundstage. By amplifier, I mean the whole signal chain from source to speaker. I'm sure the Denon AVR engineers didnt concern themselves with ps of jitter in Xtal oscillators the way the guy who designed the JLSounds board did. It does only one function; USB to I2S, yet, its effect on the sound is clear to me.
I'd have to believe that DACs - due to attention paid to such details inside them - could sound different as well. Some better than others.
I am sorry, but you are wrong. These DACs did behave that way. If you knew a bit more about the implementation of the various DACs, you would know there are a lot of choices the designer can make, using the same chip set. I mentioned one. There are others.
If you choose to believe all DAC's are the same, I expect you have an Apple Dongle and am quite happy with it. It is actually pretty good and for $10, a bargain. I will continue to use my Atom DAC+.
BTW, My Behringer calibrated mic died.
Guess who ever wrote this paper never designed an amplifier. I have. The output network is there for a reason. Maybe one should go read Cordell, Self, Leach, and others who are experts in the field of amplifier design rather than advertising copy written by snake oil salesmen. A little truth sprinkled with mythology and plain old BS. They make a case for their cables ( I use zip cord) but do not mention what is on the other end: A speaker.
Don't think I've ever heard a more enveloping soundstage from 2 speakers...
https://www.ambiophonics.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiophonics
No personal experience, but I've read good things about this device...
https://www.jolida.com/product/foz-ss-x
https://www.ambiophonics.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambiophonics
No personal experience, but I've read good things about this device...
https://www.jolida.com/product/foz-ss-x
Yeah, but I do know that. But you're doing sighted audition testing, and you're not measuring anything. I'm not questioning that your observations are wrong, I'm trying to help you get to the cause.
OK, well if you're going to attack me, I can't help you. None of the above is true, and I've not stated what DACs I have. I'm offering a means to get to the cause of your problem. Your choices, but I'm not going to help if you're going to be nasty.
Sorry to hear that, but we don't need it anyway. The method I described doesn't involve a mic.
Edit: after reading your posts, I'm out. I've tried to assist, that's all. Now exiting this thread.