Greetings. Fairly new here on DIY and just starting to dip my toes in audio DIY. I have a built a small headphone amp and a MarkAudio speaker "kit".
I am wanting build @Scottmoose Twin Driver High Output Standmount design. I am trying to decide between the Pluvia 7PHD or the Pluvia 7.2 HD drivers. I am leaning towards the 7PHD. I am open to other drivers as well but want to try a 1.5 way design. It will most likely be supplemented with my Martin Logan sub.
A little about me and the space they will be in. 50 years old and some hearing loss. I tend to like neutral to warm sound. I listen to about 80% to Qobuz and the other 20% is vinyl. These will be placed on a desk and used nearfield and then pulled out and listened from further away in a 3mx4mx3m room(office/spare bedroom). I appreciate any input on driver/enclosure selection.
I am wanting build @Scottmoose Twin Driver High Output Standmount design. I am trying to decide between the Pluvia 7PHD or the Pluvia 7.2 HD drivers. I am leaning towards the 7PHD. I am open to other drivers as well but want to try a 1.5 way design. It will most likely be supplemented with my Martin Logan sub.
A little about me and the space they will be in. 50 years old and some hearing loss. I tend to like neutral to warm sound. I listen to about 80% to Qobuz and the other 20% is vinyl. These will be placed on a desk and used nearfield and then pulled out and listened from further away in a 3mx4mx3m room(office/spare bedroom). I appreciate any input on driver/enclosure selection.
Thanks for your input, Dave. I sent you an email regarding the drivers that you have.
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Aren’t they slightly shelved in the sibilance range, so they sound a bit warmer? Or did I imagine/dream that?? Lol
I think the Alpair 7.3 is just the best and are hard to find now they have been discontinued. Haven't tried out the MAOP7's yet.
I did mange to blow mine up from a stupid Roon update that took off volume limits, they don't like 500w class D at full power. I managed to get a replacment pair on ebay for under £100 so happy.
I did mange to blow mine up from a stupid Roon update that took off volume limits, they don't like 500w class D at full power. I managed to get a replacment pair on ebay for under £100 so happy.
Hi Dave,
If I would like to pair the P7HD with a woofer for lower bass duties which MA driver would it be? And which box design would be best?
A12pw is the MA woofer.
I have 2 enclosures for it (a miniOnken [a free CGR has not been completed yet] and the big MTM, ML-TL), Scott and i have dne Nanosaurus, and there are a number of free plans.
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/A12pw-folded-MLTL-291015.pdf
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/simple-2way-A7pA12pw.pdf
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/Woden-A12pw-MLTL-plan.pdf
dave
I have 2 enclosures for it (a miniOnken [a free CGR has not been completed yet] and the big MTM, ML-TL), Scott and i have dne Nanosaurus, and there are a number of free plans.
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/A12pw-folded-MLTL-291015.pdf
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/simple-2way-A7pA12pw.pdf
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/Woden-A12pw-MLTL-plan.pdf
dave
Dave, the Sibelius and your full range designs and specifically the one that uses the FF85K and 2 Silver Flute W14s have given me a reason to think about my next project.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/pearl-acoustics.243368/page-2
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/a-thread-for-tysen-and-variations-on-waw-fast.144099/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/waw-fast-mtm-mltl-crossover-point-s.288276/page-2
Q1: Given that I do not have access to any full-range drivers in India, how do these rather large drivers reproduce frequencies above 15k? If a driver's OD is 100mm (3403 Hz) there would be a roll-off or some lobing/cancellation/dips/suckouts similar to having 2 tweeters next to each other?
Expanding on the Tysen, I was wondering if using an MAOP with a pair of ceramic or aluminium woofers (keeping all cones white) would make sense.
Madisound has some stock of the MAOP 7 or MAOP 5 drivers which I was thinking might be able to replace the FF85K. What do you think?
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/maop-7-in-onken-enclosure-in-needs-of-waw.363353/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...air-5-3-fast-waw-enclosure-size.351452/page-2
They also have some small woofers like the SEAS Prestige L16RNX and SB Acoustics SB17CAC35 that could be used instead of the Silver Flute.
I am a little unsure about the SB woofer above because of a less than good review by Erin which puts the linear one way Xmax at only 2.8mm
https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/driveunits/sbacoustics_sb17cac35-4/
Q2: Would a 1st order or 2nd order crossover be preferred. ChrisB used a 2nd order in his Alpair 7.3-WAW. I assume that if the woofer is good to 1k and the MAOP 7 is good to below 80Hz a first order would be adequate.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/alpair-7-3-fast-waw.230365/page-2
Q3: if we can go 1st order for the crossover why not use just a single inductor in series with the woofers and then connect the MAOP across the series combination of inductor+woofers. For example, the Le of the SEAS L16 woofer for example is 0.48mH, connecting 2 in parallel would be 0.24mH. Adding a 2mH inductor in series with the 2 woofers would give a 1st order at about 300hz.
Q4: What about using the SEAS or SB woofers Push-Push in a ML-TL? Similar to the Poplar?
http://p10hifi.net/TLS/downloads/PushPush-B139-foldTL-map-300609.pdf
https://wodendesign.com/planset/Poplar-A10x-MLTL-teaser.pdf
I'm not Dave, but until he's able to reply, in order:
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The above is just a simplistic calculation for the upper limit of piston BW assuming a flat circular plate. The drive units in question have curvilinear cones that eventually decouple to a central cap direct-bonded to the VC.
2/
Depends on terms of reference and what you're trying to achieve. A hyper-minimalist filter is unlikely to consistently track slopes of a target order for e.g. or correct for aberrations brought through baffle effects.
3/
See above. Note that this is also ignoring effects brought through the interaction of the LF driver impedance peaks and the inductor, which can often cause excessive peaking < 150Hz.
4/
No reason you couldn't do something like that if you design the enclosure properly, and then take suitable acoustic & impedance measurements to design the filter. Sans that, it's guesswork of course.
One of the biggest challenges a FR has is to smoothly reproduce the highest frequencies. So far we have only come really close. Using cone shape, dustups, and whizzer cones the goalis to have the driver’s chaos mode has a more or less controlled dynamic of the effective cone size of the driver. So far, IME, that usually ends up with HF ringing to at least some extent at some frequencies or like teh Alpair 10PeN, a controlled, vintage, soft top end. . Fortunately there is little content that high and many do not actually hear that high which complicateds generalizations.
Tysen was designed as an example and Tysen V2 was improved and pushed towards less expensive. Parts (ignoring XO) just now creeping over $200 USD FOB Madison.
If you use it as inspiration, better midTweeters and woofers will make a better speaker (all else equal). After Tysen came 2 more ambitious WAW. One of those will get MOAP 7 soon. The other have 7.3eN.
One example of such is a fellow in Sweden we helped with a n A7x and 2 pricey Scan woofers push-push (and he designed a clever, elaborate and effective push-push coupling.
A5.2/3 is more or less a drop in replacement for FF85wk in Tysen V2 (passive XO goes out the window)
MAOP 5 is VERY interesting, you would likely want to use better woofers than the Silver Flute.
I don’t really know. We were very happy with the 1st order PLLXO at 250 HZ, Chris was happy with the 4th order DSP (likely LR) filter in his HT receiver. The pasisve XO for Tysen V2 ended up first order at 450 Hz.
For the MAOP 7 XO (where i can’t lean on a passive) i am going to get a miniDSP to figure the XO out before deciding how to build out my 6-24 XO.
Second order introduces a phase swap between drivers, and one of the big lures is that the close physical placement means that seemless phase performance is acheivable which makes first order very attractive and fourth order as a faster alterntive that is close.
i don’t do pasisve XOs. But are you putting a part of the MAOP leg or are you running it FR? A bit of a weird way to describe a parallel XO configuration.
There is a HUGE space of WAW yet to be explored. Better woofers, better FRs. Tysen was designed to be cheap, but you could go lower. All the WAW we have done should be considered as inspiration. But Tysen V2, and the big A12pw MTM respresent 2 proven WAW with well worked out passive XOs that can be tackied by those who just want to build and not explore new ground. Nanosaurus a bit simpler, more versatile (many midTweters) but XOs still a starting poing.
Active DSP XOs are a significant tool if you want to explore WAW.
dave
Awesome, thanks Scott and Dave.
1. From the above replies I understand that while all full-range drivers have some challenges, some have been able to overcome these at least to a point where the issues are not audible. Given that Harley Lovegrove has chosen to use them, could we assume that the Mark Audio drivers be considered some of the better full-range drivers available today? If so this is a good place to start. I am not going to nickel and dime the challenges since better men than me, aka Harley, Scott and Dave (among others) are already on the full range bandwagon and find them more than acceptable.
1b. I would be very interested in a Tysen style WAW using the MAOP 7 or MAOP 5 using better woofers such as the SEAS L16RNX, SB Acoustics SB17CAC35 or SB23CACS45, or the MarkAudio Alpair 12PW.
2. Given that quality large inductors (250Hz) are expensive, a PLLXO makes sense. It does require 2 power amps, however.
3. Dave, is the MAOP 7 unsuitable to be used with gentle slopes of a PLLXO or passive XO? or are you using a mini-DSP only to accelerate the design of the PLLXO?
3. Scott, good point about the impedance peak of the woofer being in series with the full range. We surely do not want that.
4. Would a Tysen using the Alpair 12PW and MAOP 7 make any sense? I ask because given that the 12PW is a "wide-band" driver there would be a significant overlap between the MAOP and the 12PW. I really liked the woodwork done by Timpert in the link below. Extending this design using 2 12PWs in push-push, on the sides, might be an option.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/alpair-7p-alpair-12pw-combination.260714/page-11
If 2 12PWs can be used with a full range (A7.3) in MTM (as in links below) why not in a Tysen?
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...time-two-way-build-preferably-mltl-tl.369526/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/alpair-12pw-7-3-12pw-mtm.367842/page-4
FYI, many decades ago (1979-80) I managed to come across 4 (2 pairs) of Jordan 50mm modules. They were terribly inefficient (if I remember right 82db/1w/1m) and needed help below 200Hz (for which I used a pair of 10" Volt woofers given to me by the same person who gave me the Jordan Modules). Since I did not have an active crossover on hand I simply split the preamp signal and directed the same into 2 locally (Indian) made integrated amplifiers. The "crossover" was a simple capacitor in series with the input of the amplifier that powered the Jordan modules. It was the last time I played with full-range drivers.