New 3-way, 18 inch bass, Beyma TPL150 AMT Horn

[atilsley]

OK, here we go for a big one.

This project has been in the development/planning stage for 3 months. Originally, I was looking at using Altec/GPA 604 co-ax drivers with additional bass drivers. Since the early thoughts, we’ve merged into Air Motion Transformers (Beyma TP150 and matching horn), matched to the excellent Beyma 12P80 12-inch mid, and finished off with Faital Pro HP1030 18-inch woofers.

Ques taken from the $100,000 Daniel Hertz (Mark Levinson) M1.

http://www.danielhertz.com/index.php/products-2/m1

Cabinets will be:

Bass – 560mm x 560mm x 500mm deep, sealed. Birch ply construction with uber bracing. I'm yet to finalise the shape of the bass unit, with one drawing showing the angled sides with matching CNC'd ply curved add ons.

Mid bass – lovely curved CNC’d layers of Birch Ply....similar to Magico S2. The attached pic shows the to-scale drawing showing a 12-inch driver...this was helpful to test measurements.

Tweeter – simple L shape stand to start with to get the location/alignment sorted.

Xover will be 2nd order passive for the mid bass (100dB) and tweeter (102dB), suggested points of 200Hz and 1,500Hz (to be determined based on in-room testing). Huge tolerances in range chosen.

Bass will be handled by 2 x 800 watt MiniDSP PWR-DSP2 plate amp and integrated EQ. Faital Pro driver is 98dB, 1200 watt, 12.5mm Xmax. I don’t think bass output will be a challenge.

Am I excited by what’s possible with this system…? Very.

Links:

http://www.beyma.com/getpdf.php?pid=TPL-150/H

http://www.beyma.com/getpdf.php?pid=12P80Fe

FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 18HP1030

https://www.minidsp.com/products/plate-amplifiers/pwr-dsp2

 

[Face]

I did not like 2nd order on that tweeter below 2k.

If crossing that low, I would recommend a steeper filter for less strained sound and a better directivity match.

 

[atilsley]

Mid bass CNC'd cabinets I like....

 

[NiToNi]

Subscribed

 

[vinylnvalves]

Why the 18HP1030 ? Have you considered the 18FH500, much lighter cone, extension not a problem if using EQ should work well in a 100 ltr cabinet.

 

[atilsley]

I did not like 2nd order on that tweeter below 2k.

If crossing that low, I would recommend a steeper filter for less strained sound and a better directivity match.

Thanks for the feedback. With approx 1500hz xover, does that not give me a good 500 range to play with (eg 1000-1500hz)?

We can move to 3rd order as necessary, or pump the xover point to around 1800.

 

[Scott L]

m1 dup ?

Are you essentially refining the M1 ?

Are you using the exact same drivers ?

I must say I applaud your efforts, on this most ambitious project !

 

[Overkill Audio]

18 12 Overture...!

Hi Atilsley,

Nice design concept.....Plenty Sd, great 12 inch midbass and TPL tweeter from Beyma and 3 separate cabinets ....Nice!
Also try 8mm thick Sorbothane sheet in between your cabinets, it gives great stability (very sticky!) and almost total isolation from vibration.

I would suggest a good DSP crossover / Eq instead of passive crossovers....High power Pro drivers / big amps do not match well with passive crossovers, compared to an active amplification / DSP crossover.

But its a lot more money $2,000 to $4,000 depending on amps and DSP, so you can always look at that in the future....Make external boxes for your passive crossovers?

A much lower cost but very worthwhile upgrade would be to use a Precision Devices PD 1850 if you want use a single 18 inch bass driver....Twin PD 1550's per side are OMG goooooood!

The PD 1850 is almost double the price of the FP driver but simply in another world as far as performance goes.

Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.

 

[NiToNi]

Why the 18HP1030? Have you considered the 18FH500...

... or the BMS 18N862? Alternatively, if you want to make something different from the M1, the RCF LF21N551?

RCF - LF21N551

In terms of commercial efforts around the same drivers, have you checked out Tweek Geek's BMF-1 mentioned in this post:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ange-pair-beyma-tpl-150-a-36.html#post4249092

 

[atilsley]

Why the 18HP1030 ? Have you considered the 18FH500, much lighter cone, extension not a problem if using EQ should work well in a 100 ltr cabinet.

Um, not sure. I have access to a new pair of 1030's from the FP importer here in Sydney. Also, I used them before in a Cessaro/clone project I did. See pics of the woodwork for it.

 

[atilsley]

Are you essentially refining the M1 ?

Are you using the exact same drivers ?

I must say I applaud your efforts, on this most ambitious project !

Thank you for your kind remarks.

I would not say I am purposely targeting that M1 speaker...it happened by accident...as I was keen to develop a "world beater" high efficient design...which initially pointed me towards Altec. I've built many Altec and Tannoy horns...so I had an interest/love there.

Then the Beyma 150 came up...and things got interestng, especially given the positive feedback from around the world on this unique driver.

Then the link with the 12 inch Beyma / M1 project was seen.

Then I had an affiliation with Faital Pro...and that's were we ended up.

I think the M1 would be an oustanding speaker...and good luck to Levinson, who I admire greatly. (I'd like a Lexus with a Levinson sound system...!)

But I'm a small provider of unique/custom/bespoke builds...I can't compete with highe players...though I can build great products as one-offs and be innovative/flexible.

I'd say I'll get within 95% of the M1 for 1/10th of the price.

Andrew

 

[atilsley]

Are you essentially refining the M1 ?

Are you using the exact same drivers ?

I must say I applaud your efforts, on this most ambitious project !

I'm using the same tweeter and mid bass drivers.

I see the M1 has now moved to a wooden horn of the same size as the Beyma.

Bass is similar in size, and fits the 'pro, high output, musical' brief.

 

[atilsley]

Hi Atilsley,

Nice design concept.....Plenty Sd, great 12 inch midbass and TPL tweeter from Beyma and 3 separate cabinets ....Nice!
Also try 8mm thick Sorbothane sheet in between your cabinets, it gives great stability (very sticky!) and almost total isolation from vibration.

I would suggest a good DSP crossover / Eq instead of passive crossovers....High power Pro drivers / big amps do not match well with passive crossovers, compared to an active amplification / DSP crossover.

But its a lot more money $2,000 to $4,000 depending on amps and DSP, so you can always look at that in the future....Make external boxes for your passive crossovers?

A much lower cost but very worthwhile upgrade would be to use a Precision Devices PD 1850 if you want use a single 18 inch bass driver....Twin PD 1550's per side are OMG goooooood!

The PD 1850 is almost double the price of the FP driver but simply in another world as far as performance goes.

Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.

Thanks...very kind words.

I've done a lot with active and passive xovers. I'm working with a gent who has quality valve amps...and wishes to use his existing amps to drive the mids/tweets.

I believe active xover really comes into its own for bass duties, given the complexitieis of room nodes, levels, delays etc.

The xovers will be off-board.

The xover for the Minidsp amps are built in to the plates.

 

[atilsley]

... or the BMS 18N862? Alternatively, if you want to make something different from the M1, the RCF LF21N551?

RCF - LF21N551

In terms of commercial efforts around the same drivers, have you checked out Tweek Geek's BMF-1 mentioned in this post:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...ange-pair-beyma-tpl-150-a-36.html#post4249092

Thanks. Yes, I've gone through a lot of that thread.

 

[LineSource]

TPL-150H + 12P80Nd_v2 + 18" woofers ...... is becoming a popular combination with several informative threads. Some cut-and-pastes.

VinylInvalues has just posted SPL plots for the 2015 Beyma 12P80Nd revision-2 which confirm a good match to the factory specs. You want the revision-2 for a cleaner 1600Hz Xover.

Companies like Vapor Audio have amortized the high cost of translam cabinets by designing-in a rich set of features:
--super-duper strength from thick multi-ply walls;
--large radius edges for reduced diffraction;
--tapered tube rear volumes for reduced resonances without execssive stuffing;
--internal odd-shape bracing to reduce both panel and volume resonances;
--slots for sand dampening;
--sexy curves
--naked birch ply laminates are "high-tech chic", you may be able to save finishing time and money
---->IF YOU CAN AFFORD TRANSLAM....the forum brain trust can help you add a clever SET of design details.

Controlled Directivity is a popular design goal. 80H x 30V horn polars --> 180 polar cabinet --> 360 polar room. You can download a free room simulation program to select the best locations and equalization requirements. Room modes often affect 200Hz and below, and the cabinet height/width can be selected for smooth room integration.

The Tweek Geek website has good BMF-1 construction photos . TweekG glues Baltic Birch Ply + MDF together for strength and vibration control. Large radius(6") MDF are used in a few designs to control edge diffraction, and this would improve the TweekG sound. TweekG favors using a side-side pair of woofers because of the dynamics and efficiency. Two 18" side-side woofers can produce 100db SPL 30Hz bass with just 10 watts of power in an 8cuft cabinet. Two 18" side-side woofers can produce 100db SPL 30Hz bass with just 20 watts of power in a more modest 6cuft cabinet. The TPL-150H and Beyma 12P80Nd are designed for high efficiency and dynamics, which requires two 18" woofers to keep up.

https://www.pinterest.com/localhifis...in-the-making/

 

[atilsley]

Great, thanks Linesource. I love those CNC'd cabs.

 

[atilsley]

I've already done a fair bit with CNC and ply, including my own Lowther C-Horn design, GOTO bass horns, and Yuichi/TAD. Plus I use this approach using MDF slices for Tannoy and other horns.

 

[atilsley]

Some other CNC projects also.

 

[LineSource]

I was handling a Lambda TD12M speaker today..... 12" is a BIG midrange.

In the USA there is a Men's BIG and TALL clothing chain.
A TransLam design needs a BIG and TALL speaker shop.
============
Vapor Audio Perfect Storm: 15" woofer + 8" midbass + 2" mid + RAAL 140-15 ribbon = BIG and TALL
--370lb (260 lb bass section, 110 lb top section)
--64"H x 32"D x 20"W
=============
Tweek Geek BMF-1 "style" stacked-panel single cabinet for TPL-150H + 12P80nd + pair 18" woofers
~ 250 lb (original BMF-1 is 220 lb)
~ 48"h 18"w 22"d (original BMF-1 is 43”h 16”w 20”d
--=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
---A Single TMW sealed cabinet reduces total size because W uses internal volume around TM and all panels are shared.
---Because the TPL-150H is a 9" wide horn, simulations look very good for just adding 3" radius edges (Top,Left,Right) to the panels of a rectangular box with TPL-150H + 12P80nd + side pair 18" woofers.
???????????
TOO BIG for Translam??

 

[atilsley]

Mid bass CAD and bass unit CAD underway.