British intentions are always the same - charge a fortune for a band aid and a rubber oring . They used Op- amps and that's the reason for 15v .
Separate power supply was used when phono boards were common in preamps . Finkelstein had his morning schnitzel and suddenly it downed on him " why don't we offer four or five belts in the road to mastery? Each belt. will cost 10.000 shekels and the last a biggest trans will be reserved to Rabin class only - genius.! Turntables are no more but the transformers sell like a hot cakes especially in USA where everything is measured and valued by the size.
The best were from Helgen und Fischer and they had to be black . Go figure
Separate power supply was used when phono boards were common in preamps . Finkelstein had his morning schnitzel and suddenly it downed on him " why don't we offer four or five belts in the road to mastery? Each belt. will cost 10.000 shekels and the last a biggest trans will be reserved to Rabin class only - genius.! Turntables are no more but the transformers sell like a hot cakes especially in USA where everything is measured and valued by the size.
The best were from Helgen und Fischer and they had to be black . Go figure
if you follow this logic, people who bought HICAP for so many years were deaf and did not hear the difference with and without it?
Hhhhhhhh
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I agree with most of your claims. But there's no way, to live in the NAIM's ecosystem. You also need to consider selling them later. Because you might like other amplifiers.
True . Only the Elfes from Salisbury can touch them amps otherwise they lose their magical powers. One of them Chris Rock or West from the Chicago's family will re-wire your power socket for $400 and restore your Nait 2 for $3500..
I can't say I don't like em
.and we all have to make living. Olive series is a genius styling and I'm going to own two or three stacks of em.. just to look at those medieval beauties.
I can't say I don't like em
.and we all have to make living. Olive series is a genius styling and I'm going to own two or three stacks of em.. just to look at those medieval beauties.What else they supposed to buy ? The preamps come without transformer. Its a lovely made piece. You can't compare adding a CAP to integrated because Naim handicaps integrates with single rail PSU and all the caps offer 2 rails. Still there are some people who prefer them without Caps. Hardly anybody experiments because it's a niche product for a circle of buttheads but wouldnt decent IE core sound better ? It's an also a question of how much transformer should cost. Obviously it can cost as much as a car..
.
Why install a bad little transformer in a pre amplifier? you can buy a good big one in a separate HICAP case plus interference from the transformer will not affect the pre-amplifier circuits when it is in a separate circuit I think this approach is completely justified otherwise you will get a bad power supply inside the preamp
haven't you thought about it?
haven't you thought about it?
I did think about it but with toroid transformers and lack of phono section (and in a full width case) I find it a no issue just like majority of other manufacturers I like Naim, but they are very much western company with a wasteful and marketing driven approach, There is a little point in criticizing them since everybody else is doing the same. How much it would cost to add another regulator in their integrated amps to make it dual rail ? 70 cents? But they wouldn't be able to sell as many of those flat , hi and super-hi Caps would they? Take CDX. I really like that old player and take it over the new ones , but people I consider trustworthy say it sounds a bit underdeveloped without XPS and it has inside a really big chunk of Helgen und Fischer black wrapped magic transformer. What it doesn't have is easily implementable another winding and 70cents regulator to feed power hungry digital section separately . This addition came with XPS and double the money to make the player fully developed. And now you have that big chunk of magic transformer inside playing a dead weight role. Then you have a mile of cheapest wire connecting your PSU and fragile signal you're so worried about going through multiple connection breaks to assure compatibility with legacy products. And you have pages on Naim forum about wire dressing and how fragile this equipment is and how a little thing, the wire dressing, the shelf material the earth magnetic fields can throw them out of balance and ruin the music (not joking actually). The best part are Dealer's demos on audio shows. You can hardly imagine worse sounding systems. I really like Nait3. It wipes the floor with Supernait preamp connected to Nait5 amp i.e the "New Naim sound" when one is in a mood to enjoy the music. When you want to enjoy the sound it's an entirely different matter and you can't possibly prefer little 3 to a New Naim.
Actually , thanks to this thread it came to my mind that I can dismantle factory Burndy shorting plug in CDX and connect an adequate separate transformer with a regulator to feed the digital section of the player section added in XPS and missing inside the player keeping all the magic of Helgem unt Fischer trans inside the player!
Oleg, I'm giving you permission to sell the idea in the form of a kit to your faithful customers who own CDX . Once the war is over we will drink a cold vodka and crunch some pickles
Oleg, I'm giving you permission to sell the idea in the form of a kit to your faithful customers who own CDX
. Once the war is over we will drink a cold vodka and crunch some pickles
you are not right
If added the another voltage it s needed to wind additional windings in the transformer
thereby reducing its power output to the power amplifier
Next you need to install another rectifier capacitor and so on
You don't understand the subject
you engage in empty criticism without understanding why it was done this way and not otherwise
you bought budget Naim models and require good sound from them at the level of expensive models
if you don't like Naim so much
sell what you currently have and buy audio components from another company
If added the another voltage it s needed to wind additional windings in the transformer
thereby reducing its power output to the power amplifier
Next you need to install another rectifier capacitor and so on
You don't understand the subject
you engage in empty criticism without understanding why it was done this way and not otherwise
you bought budget Naim models and require good sound from them at the level of expensive models
if you don't like Naim so much
sell what you currently have and buy audio components from another company
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I'm sorry? Did you count the windings in Supernait trans? Wasn't an old Supercap just a one secondary with a string of cheap regs?
Aren't an old cheap models sporting blue Alps just like expensive models which is the cheapest and clear as mud sounding pot? Did you ever try to compare the sound of pots? Aren't the schematics of cheap models almost exactly the same as expensive models? I'm not criticizing too much. since I like Naim and the way they construct their products is pretty labor intensive and therefore expensive. It's all the bull surrounding the mystique which gets on my nerve.
Aren't an old cheap models sporting blue Alps just like expensive models which is the cheapest and clear as mud sounding pot? Did you ever try to compare the sound of pots? Aren't the schematics of cheap models almost exactly the same as expensive models? I'm not criticizing too much. since I like Naim and the way they construct their products is pretty labor intensive and therefore expensive. It's all the bull surrounding the mystique which gets on my nerve.
simple diagrams are not as simple as they seem
Very simple I explain to you
When you walking on street in USA and buy hotdog and coffee for breakfast why you buy it in specialty place ? Hotdog and coffee it’s same on anywhere correct ?
No you buying great teasting hotdog and excellent coffee in great place
Very simple I explain to you
When you walking on street in USA and buy hotdog and coffee for breakfast why you buy it in specialty place ? Hotdog and coffee it’s same on anywhere correct ?
No you buying great teasting hotdog and excellent coffee in great place
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When you are into manufacturing sound is only one of considerations, sometimes not the most important. You have to comply with safety regulations, you may choose backward compatibility with legacy products which curtail the sound . You have to watch what your clients expect and require. I'm sure Asians want to see black cloth on the transformers and they are main consumer market ,also they want to hear the sound of one clapping hand and wanted or not you gotta provide that. This is DIY. None of it is a concern and you can use a leaded solder and stick all the safety regulations into the outhouse hole.
Very interesting conversation! I have a question in regard to cable dressing of a Naim system. A long time ago I owned active 6*135 olive with snaxo/supercap and 52/supercap. A lot of cables. I remember when cables touched each other the sound was damaged. So yes, dressing was important.
Now I realize that it seems the black Snaic cables have no shielding and carry both the 24V and the signal, is that correct? The grey interconnect cables have shielding around every single wire. But it seems the black Snaic is made of IE core cable and has no shielding. Plus the signal goes through the hicap (in my case supercap).
So I see 3 problems: signal routing through more than necessary connectors, shielding missing, and voltage lines in the same cable as signal lines. Why did they do that...?
I know that inside hicap there is the most quiet GND between the main caps, because the transformer has 4 windings (i.e. two centre tapped +/- supplies). I can understand that GND must be routed through this point inside the hicap. So OK, they want to keep signal wires close to their GND lines. But what about my other 2 points?
(P.S.: and may I kindly ask for reduction of generalizing in the direction towards Americans, Aseans, Russia, even UK-based Naim etc. etc. - I am half Asean, half European, and I can tell you I suffered a lot in my life because of this... May God let the wars to stop as soon as possible!!)
Now I realize that it seems the black Snaic cables have no shielding and carry both the 24V and the signal, is that correct? The grey interconnect cables have shielding around every single wire. But it seems the black Snaic is made of IE core cable and has no shielding. Plus the signal goes through the hicap (in my case supercap).
So I see 3 problems: signal routing through more than necessary connectors, shielding missing, and voltage lines in the same cable as signal lines. Why did they do that...?
I know that inside hicap there is the most quiet GND between the main caps, because the transformer has 4 windings (i.e. two centre tapped +/- supplies). I can understand that GND must be routed through this point inside the hicap. So OK, they want to keep signal wires close to their GND lines. But what about my other 2 points?
(P.S.: and may I kindly ask for reduction of generalizing in the direction towards Americans, Aseans, Russia, even UK-based Naim etc. etc. - I am half Asean, half European, and I can tell you I suffered a lot in my life because of this... May God let the wars to stop as soon as possible!!)
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The generalizations will always exist because every clan considers itself being better than the other clans. It's a genetic code of millions of years of evolution and the condition for survival. Just take the joke even if it is in a bad taste and even worse manners as long as it is rather harmless. Also there are general cultural traits you can't erase. It is well known fact that British hifi industry is surviving only thanks to Asian market for " antiques " and prevalent respect for tradition.
Naim. Signal routing and grounding scheme has a technical explanation but it is a constant object of questioning. In my opinion they only keep it for legacy reasons and for the cool factor of being different. Indeed buying $100k of gear to hook it up with 10 cents worth of general purpose mains wire does not sound very audiophile but if it works it works. They are late to the party but Lumina series of cables supposed to mitigate that fact.
I find Oleg's position slightly off the topic since he also deals with cheapest Naim with his tribute band activity and its not the Naim own forum where out of courtesy you simply can't spit in their face while enjoying sitting at their table.
I was listening to cheap Naim in form of Supermait preamp and Naim 5 power amp combo ( Some on PFM think Supernait is not as refined as Nait5 ) and for a change hooked up the old Naim ie the power section of Nait3 . Uhhh that was cruel and had shaken my faith in old Naim and I started to think like one of Naimees meaning " damn , I should probably think about re-cap " haha . The dude who sold me faulty Supernait was semi convinced that it needs the recap to bring it full glory.
According to " my fat Greek wedding " the solution is Windex and I have it on shelf. I will spray it in the evening into Supernait
Re-sale value is the main thing in today's audio. Nothing else counts.
Also there are general cultural traits you can't erase. It is well known fact that British hifi industry is surviving only thanks to Asian market for " antiques " and prevalent respect for tradition.Naim. Signal routing and grounding scheme has a technical explanation but it is a constant object of questioning. In my opinion they only keep it for legacy reasons and for the cool factor of being different. Indeed buying $100k of gear to hook it up with 10 cents worth of general purpose mains wire does not sound very audiophile but if it works it works. They are late to the party but Lumina series of cables supposed to mitigate that fact.
I find Oleg's position slightly off the topic since he also deals with cheapest Naim with his tribute band activity and its not the Naim own forum where out of courtesy you simply can't spit in their face while enjoying sitting at their table.
I was listening to cheap Naim in form of Supermait preamp and Naim 5 power amp combo ( Some on PFM think Supernait is not as refined as Nait5 ) and for a change hooked up the old Naim ie the power section of Nait3 . Uhhh that was cruel and had shaken my faith in old Naim and I started to think like one of Naimees meaning " damn , I should probably think about re-cap " haha . The dude who sold me faulty Supernait was semi convinced that it needs the recap to bring it full glory.
According to " my fat Greek wedding " the solution is Windex and I have it on shelf. I will spray it in the evening into Supernait
Re-sale value is the main thing in today's audio. Nothing else counts.
Wow, impressive answer! But... may I without offending disagree and say the following: exact because of this kind of thinking the world is as it is ;-)
Million years of evolution prove that human being can well exist without generalization (and comprition for that matter), and on top of that it's not a genetic code, it's in our brain What really makes us survive is cooperation. Especially now...
Ok enough, back to topic. So what do you prefer: the old cheap stuff like Nait3, or the later top of the line? What is better value for money?
Million years of evolution prove that human being can well exist without generalization (and comprition for that matter), and on top of that it's not a genetic code, it's in our brain
What really makes us survive is cooperation. Especially now...Ok enough, back to topic. So what do you prefer: the old cheap stuff like Nait3, or the later top of the line? What is better value for money?
The generalizations will always exist because every clan considers itself being better than the other clans. It's a genetic code of millions of years of evolution and the condition for survival. Just take the joke even if it is in a bad taste and even worse manners as long as it is rather harmless.
Naim. Signal routing and grounding scheme has a technical explanation but it is a constant object of questioning. In my opinion they only keep it for legacy reasons and for the cool factor of being different. Indeed buying $100k of gear to hook it up with 10 cents worth of general purpose mains wire does not sound very audiophile but if it works it works. They are late to the party but Lumina series of cables supposed to mitigate that fact.
I find Oleg's position slightly off the topic since he also deals with cheapest Naim with his tribute band activity and its not the Naim own forum where out of courtesy you simply can't spit in their face while enjoying sitting at their table.
I was listening to cheap Naim in form of Supermait preamp and Naim 5 power amp combo ( Some on PFM think Supernait is not as refined as Nait5 ) and for a change hooked up the old Naim ie the power section of Nait3 . Uhhh that was cruel and had shaken my faith in old Naim and I started to think like one of Naimees meaning " damn , I should probably think about re-cap " haha . The dude who sold me faulty Supernait was semi convinced that it needs the recap to bring it full glory.
According to " my fat Greek wedding " the solution is Windex and I have it on shelf. I will spray it in the evening into Supernait
Re-sale value is the main thing in today's audio. Nothing else counts.
WowThe generalizations will always exist because every clan considers itself being better than the other clans. It's a genetic code of millions of years of evolution and the condition for survival. Just take the joke even if it is in a bad taste and even worse manners as long as it is rather harmless.
Naim. Signal routing and grounding scheme has a technical explanation but it is a constant object of questioning. In my opinion they only keep it for legacy reasons and for the cool factor of being different. Indeed buying $100k of gear to hook it up with 10 cents worth of general purpose mains wire does not sound very audiophile but if it works it works. They are late to the party but Lumina series of cables supposed to mitigate that fact.
I find Oleg's position slightly off the topic since he also deals with cheapest Naim with his tribute band activity and its not the Naim own forum where out of courtesy you simply can't spit in their face while enjoying sitting at their table.
I was listening to cheap Naim in form of Supermait preamp and Naim 5 power amp combo ( Some on PFM think Supernait is not as refined as Nait5 ) and for a change hooked up the old Naim ie the power section of Nait3 . Uhhh that was cruel and had shaken my faith in old Naim and I started to think like one of Naimees meaning " damn , I should probably think about re-cap " haha . The dude who sold me faulty Supernait was semi convinced that it needs the recap to bring it full glory.
According to " my fat Greek wedding " the solution is Windex and I have it on shelf. I will spray it in the evening into Supernait
Re-sale value is the main thing in today's audio. Nothing else counts.
You serious ?
I stuiding the old Naim technology at 2009 year
I listening all original old BD and HB and Olive amplifiers and preamps in Moscow with my friends
You have experience with listening all old Naim amplifiers ?
It's probably my poor English causing the communication issue.
Oleg , I don't question your experience nor I question your taste or anything else. I don't criticize the use of Hi- CAP with CB era preamps nor even with Olive full width series. There is no space inside for big power supply.
You are into business of re- creation of old Naim pieces and that's fine .
I don't pretend to be able to beat Naim in their own game and improve on the one circuit they use for over 40 years with success . They are smart people.
But honestly., Have you ever put Naim preamp circuit like you use in full width case and put the hi cap in that case without loops of cheap wire and can therefore say it sounds worse than traditional Naim scheme?
It all started with OP and modded 112. , well nothing left but the enclosure so poor re-sale value anyway.
I talked to Ron Toolsie who modified his CDS3 to compare my CDS3 . He actually does not make those modifications. His tech does. He claims Naim uses big trans for their inductance and it kind of makes some sense because they use full wave rectifiers in thier PSU not a bridge .
BTW. My flatcap ( Cheap admittedly) uses one secondary ( AC- O-AC ) two diodes and one cap power both +24V regulators to improve on the single regulator inside .
I'm sure you guys in Moscow have access to best gear and I don't doubt your experience. All I'm saying is that being a DIY enables you to do things a,different way. If you're in a business itsxa different matter
Oleg , I don't question your experience nor I question your taste or anything else. I don't criticize the use of Hi- CAP with CB era preamps nor even with Olive full width series. There is no space inside for big power supply.
You are into business of re- creation of old Naim pieces and that's fine .
I don't pretend to be able to beat Naim in their own game and improve on the one circuit they use for over 40 years with success . They are smart people.
But honestly., Have you ever put Naim preamp circuit like you use in full width case and put the hi cap in that case without loops of cheap wire and can therefore say it sounds worse than traditional Naim scheme?
It all started with OP and modded 112. , well nothing left but the enclosure so poor re-sale value anyway.
I talked to Ron Toolsie who modified his CDS3 to compare my CDS3 . He actually does not make those modifications. His tech does. He claims Naim uses big trans for their inductance and it kind of makes some sense because they use full wave rectifiers in thier PSU not a bridge .
BTW. My flatcap ( Cheap admittedly) uses one secondary ( AC- O-AC ) two diodes and one cap power both +24V regulators to improve on the single regulator inside .
I'm sure you guys in Moscow have access to best gear and I don't doubt your experience. All I'm saying is that being a DIY enables you to do things a,different way. If you're in a business itsxa different matter