@Calvin: was the absence of cloth / screens mainly about appearance, or acoustics as well?
I did more listening tests and comparing, and the overall impression is that on average I prefer the woofer + esl setup to the esl only setup. The esl only setup is still very capable of producing LF, but the woofers produce just more pressure and, depending on the record, give a bit more dynamics, which I prefer. Still questionable if I would spend about 1500 euro's for just the 12 midwooders and dsp and stereo amplifier to power this hybrid setup, and in my case, being dependent on windows-only minidsp software, but I hope to extend the improvement by building a new, similar panel, maybe a bit taller, with smaller d/s spacing to improve sensitivity, so I can use easily obtainable, cheap toroidal power transforers, compared to the heavy, custom made full range transformers I currently use for my stats. And I expect an audible improvement in mid-range transparency, if remembering correctly from listening tests a few years ago, because I will use them without any cloth / screens, as I don't need to tame the fundamental resonant frequency of the stat panels.
I did more listening tests and comparing, and the overall impression is that on average I prefer the woofer + esl setup to the esl only setup. The esl only setup is still very capable of producing LF, but the woofers produce just more pressure and, depending on the record, give a bit more dynamics, which I prefer. Still questionable if I would spend about 1500 euro's for just the 12 midwooders and dsp and stereo amplifier to power this hybrid setup, and in my case, being dependent on windows-only minidsp software, but I hope to extend the improvement by building a new, similar panel, maybe a bit taller, with smaller d/s spacing to improve sensitivity, so I can use easily obtainable, cheap toroidal power transforers, compared to the heavy, custom made full range transformers I currently use for my stats. And I expect an audible improvement in mid-range transparency, if remembering correctly from listening tests a few years ago, because I will use them without any cloth / screens, as I don't need to tame the fundamental resonant frequency of the stat panels.
Hi,
my experiences with ESLs featuring cloth or mesh damping relates in majority to Quads.
While I do like the 57, I never heard the 63 (or its heirs) really ´transparent´, regardless of setup and used amplifiers.
It always sounded muddy, boring, non-dynamic to my ears, as if a blanket were thrown over it.
Still though I´d like to experiment with mesh in my next panels, attempting to reduce the resonance peak burden before taking electronic measures.
Building a dedicated hybrid-panel will improve matters against just using a FR-panel and add some woof below.
Dynamics, speed and attac can improve by orders.
A larger system designed that way can easily perform with the authority and effortlessness of a big horn system, topping it in speed, resolution and naturality ... rem: it won´t reach the top SPL levels, but the ESL doesn´t suffer fom compression effects like a dynamic speaker.
Its a hard-clipping behaviour -almost perfect till that point- against the soft-clipping of dynamic drivers with grossly increasing THD which notifies about the nearby limits.
jauu
Calvin
my experiences with ESLs featuring cloth or mesh damping relates in majority to Quads.
While I do like the 57, I never heard the 63 (or its heirs) really ´transparent´, regardless of setup and used amplifiers.
It always sounded muddy, boring, non-dynamic to my ears, as if a blanket were thrown over it.
Still though I´d like to experiment with mesh in my next panels, attempting to reduce the resonance peak burden before taking electronic measures.
Building a dedicated hybrid-panel will improve matters against just using a FR-panel and add some woof below.
Dynamics, speed and attac can improve by orders.
A larger system designed that way can easily perform with the authority and effortlessness of a big horn system, topping it in speed, resolution and naturality ... rem: it won´t reach the top SPL levels, but the ESL doesn´t suffer fom compression effects like a dynamic speaker.
Its a hard-clipping behaviour -almost perfect till that point- against the soft-clipping of dynamic drivers with grossly increasing THD which notifies about the nearby limits.
jauu
Calvin
You're invited to come and listen in The Netherlands and be wildly surprised. PM for an appointment.
Could it be that damping mesh has a nonlineair behaviour? Nonlineair regarding amplitude? That may explain Calvins observation as well as my experience with an audiostatic + mesh
Hi,
I probabely mixed something up in my observation/experience of the Quad´s sound.
Low dynamics is a ´built-in feature´ of this design of a multiple of rather small sized segments, which, beeing of high impedance, require a very high transformation factor .... which is even more exaggerated by the ´constant current drive´ through the high valued secondary sided resistors.
The damping mats probabely just kill whats left of the highs in exchange for a lowered resonance peak.
I´d say that designing for a lower transformer-U most probabely results in higher dynamics and more transparency in sound.
jauuu
Calvin
I probabely mixed something up in my observation/experience of the Quad´s sound.
Low dynamics is a ´built-in feature´ of this design of a multiple of rather small sized segments, which, beeing of high impedance, require a very high transformation factor .... which is even more exaggerated by the ´constant current drive´ through the high valued secondary sided resistors.
The damping mats probabely just kill whats left of the highs in exchange for a lowered resonance peak.
I´d say that designing for a lower transformer-U most probabely results in higher dynamics and more transparency in sound.
jauuu
Calvin
I'm wondering if one can implement an esl without any damping materials like printing mesh? My personal experience from my first models is that this results in improved, audible transparancy, compared to panels with damping materials like printing screen.
But according to an (very informative) article I've read by Frank Verwaal, there are resonances, not just in the lower frequencies, but also in the mid frequencies*. How are your opinions about not taming those resonancies and thus prioritizing transparancy?
* source: The Design of Electrostatic Loudspeakers - Frank Verwaal 2011, paragraph 9.12, "Diaphragm Resonance in the Mid Region and Damping"
https://www.scribd.com/document/63688628/The-Design-of-Electrostatic-Loudspeakers-Frank-Verwaal-2011
But according to an (very informative) article I've read by Frank Verwaal, there are resonances, not just in the lower frequencies, but also in the mid frequencies*. How are your opinions about not taming those resonancies and thus prioritizing transparancy?
* source: The Design of Electrostatic Loudspeakers - Frank Verwaal 2011, paragraph 9.12, "Diaphragm Resonance in the Mid Region and Damping"
https://www.scribd.com/document/63688628/The-Design-of-Electrostatic-Loudspeakers-Frank-Verwaal-2011
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Vd Waal states that the origin of higher frequency resonances is because of different distance and directions on points of the Mylar. Depending on the geometry so too speak. If so it should be visible from midbass upwards. Cant remember something like tihis showing up in freq. Response. Some resonance can occur in perforated metal stators like martin logan.
Audiostatics are an example of full range statics without dampingmesh or grill cloth which means any resonance will be in their reproduced range. In my opinion they are compromised in the bass as a result. You get used to the 'wooly' sound and it may actually do a decent job when combined with a sub. But put a good dynamic speaker next to it and the difference is obvious in favour of the cleaner dynamic speaker. It is also a personal thing just asl not everyone is bothered by the negative effects of damping mesh in the same way.
Audiostatics are an example of full range statics without dampingmesh or grill cloth which means any resonance will be in their reproduced range. In my opinion they are compromised in the bass as a result. You get used to the 'wooly' sound and it may actually do a decent job when combined with a sub. But put a good dynamic speaker next to it and the difference is obvious in favour of the cleaner dynamic speaker. It is also a personal thing just asl not everyone is bothered by the negative effects of damping mesh in the same way.
@silvershadelynx: I think this article has been mentioned in this sub-forum before but, well, there is so much information 
so I'll mention it again ... the diyaudio members @bolserst and @golfnut wrote this article some years ago:
Acoustic Transparency of Electrostatic Loudspeaker Assemblies (Journal of the Audio Engineering Society Vol. 65, No. 6, June 2017)
describing e.g. the intrinsic reflections taking place between the stators, the membrane and damping cloth (if used) and (to my memory) e.g. found that particularly larger distances between these mechanical parts can give rise to peaks and dips also in the <20 kHz range. IMHO one of the most valuable & insightful sources I have come across in terms of optimizing electrostatic loudspeaker designs.
Cheers, Jesper
so I'll mention it again ... the diyaudio members @bolserst and @golfnut wrote this article some years ago:Acoustic Transparency of Electrostatic Loudspeaker Assemblies (Journal of the Audio Engineering Society Vol. 65, No. 6, June 2017)
describing e.g. the intrinsic reflections taking place between the stators, the membrane and damping cloth (if used) and (to my memory) e.g. found that particularly larger distances between these mechanical parts can give rise to peaks and dips also in the <20 kHz range. IMHO one of the most valuable & insightful sources I have come across in terms of optimizing electrostatic loudspeaker designs.
Cheers, Jesper
That's true, but they do have another kind of damping. Audiostatic uses silicone dots that are placed between membrane and the crossmembers that support the wires, see picture.
I once measured a panel duing a rebuild before and after application of the dots and the effect was quite substantial. I can't find the measurements anymore but with the dots you get a lower and wider resonance peak. Q of the peak dropped from somewhere in de 20+ range to well below 10. Same effect as a mesh or cloth type damping basically, although a mesh probably can give more damping than the dots can achieve. It's a trade off. Woolier more resonant bass but better tranparancy in the mids and highs.
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When i wrote my message about audiostatics I thought about the dots but didnt mention. The reason is that I am not sure if they truly dampen. Q lowers obviously but it also broadens. I.am wondering about the area under the curve; is there less resonance because of dots or is it just redistributed. Maybe maudio remembers? Maybe it is bit of both? I m guessing so because the dots are relatvely soft so absorption of energy may occur. Higher resonances could be better damped by air.
I think the amount of damping is small, especially in the low frequencies. The dots have some flexibility but not much, I don't think they allow much movement of the membrane at the fixing points. So I can't see the dots absorbing much low frequency energy. I think you're right that the effect is mostly due to breaking up the membrane in smaller sections.
