OK, so 40wpc on Class A, stereo mode. But every thing should be OK, I think. My speakers are 6 ohms and at 90db/w and they can handle 150w RMS:
https://www.audionote.co.uk/an-k-speakers
100 watts will play at 110db... if I get 150 wpc, well that is LOUD enough for me.
And in class A.
I mean, if the SHTF, well, I could always hook up the A2s to the speakers... Now, THAT will be L.O.U.D.. ;-)
Have you ever played Ted Nugent?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nugent_(album)
Trust me, there come times when that tenner up and down matters.
Like the time I smoked the midrange driver in one of my ADS L810 with the Sansui G-7500 playing Eric Clapton and Freddie King doing "Live! Farther On Up The Road". Trading guitar solos... It wasn't the amp clipping.. it was, ahem!, I was playing it at 11. The factory didn't believe anyone could fry the midrange so they paid for the entire repair bill so long as their R&D got their hands on the driver.
You see. There comes a time in every audiophile's career where you can not be timid, you MUST throw caution to the wind and CRANK IT UP. The First Watt is great, BUT when you need that "extra push over the cliff" the First Watt you NEED the First One
Just read Nelson's account of how they "broke" in the Pipe -Ohs.
Like the time we played ZZ Top over Big Cerwin Vega speakers and one of them Super Duper Late 70s Pioneer receiver... we were out in the patio... it was TOO LOUD in the house, but oh boy! It was clean and fun.
The man was right:
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I've told you - if you want a party, you need other type of 8" than you're having in AN
their db/W figure is utter BS, their power figure is utter BS
if you want to stay with 8" and party with kick, take other speakers (with 8" bass) and then appropriate amp
if you want same with 25W amp, take speakers more sensitive and more efficient; well, at least more efficient
and that demands bigger boxes, bigger drivers and lesser level of BS
you'll never have kick in but and gut with AN 8" and 100W of F4 Bal will kick those voice coils through window
their db/W figure is utter BS, their power figure is utter BS
if you want to stay with 8" and party with kick, take other speakers (with 8" bass) and then appropriate amp
if you want same with 25W amp, take speakers more sensitive and more efficient; well, at least more efficient
and that demands bigger boxes, bigger drivers and lesser level of BS
you'll never have kick in but and gut with AN 8" and 100W of F4 Bal will kick those voice coils through window
Aaah, kimosabe... two things to consider:
(1) I moved the little AN up against the wall, within three feet of the corners... that makes a HUGE difference. I got a hold of the factory and he was most adamant to do that to up the acoustic efficiency of the speakers.
(2) I got a pair of Entec MX-5 "sub"-woofers. Those things are musical, loud and have a bass reach that is amazing.
I want to hear the slam of the tom toms... and feel the kick drum. I figure that 8 inch driver can handle the guitar better than the ADS L810's dome midrange. As it is, the stock F4 and the ANs do a great facsimile of the sound. The F5 has better bass, but it sounds sloppy in comparison. I supposed I ought to try the A5s and the tubed amp.... but that will defeat the purpose.
https://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/quixotic+endeavor
BTW, I used to drive two pairs of Acoustic Energy AE1s, each with an ARC D70-II amp... with the Entecs filtering at 60Hz. THAT could rock and it was fast. I suppose I could set that up again, but I've moved on and, idiotically, sold one of the D70s amps!
Yes, I acknowledge... I'm cheating with the Entecs. But, hey, I'm no Sancho Panza... he was the realistic part of the pair... that's why he was on a burro, not on Rocinante.
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Then The World is Your Oyster
It's all in fun. 🙂
And you should realize that my "every day" speakers are Magnepans.. Talk about non-efficient. Everything becomes efficient when you got Maggies.
For "normal" listening, the F4/AN-K do a beautiful pair. They even play Metallica... up to 10. Besides, I got it on a private party sale... at 40% of MSRP... the things are only 7 years old and the finish, burled birch, is beautiful. We do have to take such things in to account... sometimes.
BTW, I like a drop of tabasco on my oysters. How do you like your oysters? Out here in the West Coast of the USA we get some awesome types from SF all the way up to the NW.
Oh, the SiTs are also meant to power the AN-Ks.
One thing about the F4... it seems like it allows the sound of the preamp to come through loud and clear... so I wonder.... I think I do need more preamps, line stages? A BA3 balanced preamp? An ARC LS17 SE? What do YOU think? I guess you have more experience on this than I do.
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So I seem to have a supplier in the UK for my transformers. https://www.tigertoroids.co.uk/
My next question is one for each channel or one big one for both channels?
My next question is one for each channel or one big one for both channels?
pardon me if I missed and you did post numbers .....
first - you need either to measure full blast, or recalculate it - known figure of output RMS voltage of your source, then gain (and max alowable swing) of you existing preamp, then you'll know what actual power amount you're feeding AN with
if that figure (W=Urms^2/Rload) is equal or at least approaching 25W@8R (or adequate figure @6R), and you want and think that AN is able to receive and yell more, then you really need more potent amp
I mean, I like AN (originally Snell and who knows who before) approach - nice pair of drivers in box with bigger front with decent xover ..... what I don't like is - Fairytales constructed about them, and I generally don't like and expect kickbutandgut performance from 8" speakers
not that I didn't heard or even had that, but - as I said - for that kind of performance one need completely different type of drivers, which demands mighty level of power
I don't like Oysters at all, never mind that those native for my neck of wood extincted about 10 million years ago
Entire World is my Oyster; one, singular
My -preamp puts out a maximum of 20V. Rated 31db gain on the gain stage. It's a Conrad Johnson PV9 ( with full factory upgrades... teflon caps, etc... ).
I drive a Pearl 2 into it, set to 55 db gain with a Grado 1.0mV cartridge. The digital is a Burson Swing (*) unit that puts out a full 2V. Source for the Burson is an Android tablet running Tidal over USB OTG set to "full" digital volume.
When I drive either source, I can hear some strain on the voices (**) when the preamp's volume knob reaches 2 or 3 o'clock. Which tells me I've reached the full 14.4V swing required for full output of the F4. Mind you, with the speakers against the wall they have very good bass. I'm still experimenting with the location. My first go at it was about two feet, but on the factory advice I moved them three inches from the back wall and a little closer to the corners ( room is 14 feet wide, stands are Target 24", lead filled ). Note to self, the speakers are a bit too high. I might use the Entec woofers as stands... they are massive enough and 20" tall. I don't know if the AN speakers will like the vibration though.
The AN is rated to 150wpc on their site... 6 ohms, hence I think that my preamp (or a BA3) could easily drive the F4 full range.. and if I got BA3 balanced, then I could easily do more than 100wpc into the ANs... that, should be plenty loud.
My entire thought process here is to get a "more powerful" amp, hence running the F4s with a balanced preamp.
I already have more powerful amps, mind you, but the process here is to set up a low power system alongside the high power setup (running the Maggies). However, along the way, it came up that I could go with twin F4s... and so.... things sort of snowballed...
Sorry to hear about the oysters. They are very good. The Kawamotos are exceptional. I had some that were farm grown in the SF bay (or maybe it was up in Oregon... I forget ). In the West Coast we have cold water oysters, which IMHO are tastier than the warm water versions from the East Coast. Oysters do extremely well with Gold Ale or an IPA. Don't waste you money on champagne with oysters, that's a waste.
I wonder though if the Venetians ruined the Adriatic for oysters, hundreds of years ago. Beautiful place, the Adriatic... I love olives myself.
(*) I got a few of the upgrade V4, V5 and V6 op amps but haven't bothered to push them in yet. Too many things to do.
(**) I like using the human voice for this test because it is very clear and we know how it is supposed to sound.
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Guys, we’ve kind of gone off the rails in this thread. The OP is trying to ask questions here and is being drowned out by this side discussion. I apologize for my part. Maybe a different F4 thread is more appropriate for this conversation.
Actually, I'm on the same point as the OP:
"One thing about the F4... it seems like it allows the sound of the preamp to come through loud and clear... so I wonder.... I think I do need more preamps, line stages? A BA3 balanced preamp? An ARC LS17 SE? What do YOU think? I guess you have more experience on this than I do."
That's why I asked about using a balanced preamp to run two F4s for more power...
I had thought at one point about using an ACA (yep, got that) to drive it... use a B1K into an ACA into an F4... but I ended up thinking it was better to go and get a line stage with more voltage swing to begin with. IMHO, either go for a tube preamp or get a BA3 front end built... balanced is better.
The ARC LS17 SE has balanced outputs and my current CJ has enough voltage to drive one F4.
OP: The F4 opens up a pandora's box.... suddenly the sound of the preamp is what you hear! The F4 itself really has no sound of its own I can hear. It becomes possible to use two F4s with a balanced preamp to take over most of your speaker needs... except perhaps power hungry planars.
As far as using the ACP to drive the F4 I was told -privately- not to do it... but to use the BA-3 front end for that... Here's a thread that might be interesting to you... note how they call out for using a step up transformer... which might be fun then if I can get the B1K to drive the F4...
( Mark Johnson's post at https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/amp-camp-pre-headphone-amp-acp.344836/page-110 )...
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If you build the BBA-3 instead you get more current and all the gain you need. Then you can build an Iron Pre or Iron Pumpkin, and you will be set to drive almost everything.
The basic sound of the BA-3/F4 combo will still be there.
BA-3 was made for the F4 OS, and the BA-2 OS is the F4 OS.
I already have an F4.
It plays wonderfully with my CJ tubed preamp and the new speakers I just got.
But, I want it louder! Who knows, it might be even able to drive Maggies?
Mostly, I want a preamp that has balanced outputs. The fact it will drive two F4s for more power is the fine bubbles in a vintage brut. We just went from NV Mumm to a 2012 Veuve Clicquot La Grande Dame.
Also, given how transparent the F4 is... it will be fun to compare a very good tubed unit with a very good SS unit.
it's all about having options.
From my point of view, I want to separate the amp(s) and preamp(s) as I want to use the F4 with other pre-amps and the BA-3 preamp with the Aleph A2s and A5s, in either SE or balanced mode, if I wish to do so...
Also, you see, there's more to the plan that meets the eye.... it's not just about driving amps... the plan is to build a full featured BA-3 preamp with SE and balanced outputs, a balance control and a tape monitor circuit. Perhaps even headphones. Sort of like a line stage similar to my CJ PV9 (minus the phono section). That way I'll have a tubed and a SS FET preamps.
Done right, it might become something others want done as well. Who knows? It might have been done already, but I know the features I need. The question will be how much customization I can afford? Can I afford the silk screening on the front and rear panels? Can we use an external power supply? Can I ask for a green LED? Actually, I'd love a cyan LED to match the Pearl.
My current F4 has the obligatory Pass Blue LED.
But that's me... the OP might have other needs.
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I've no need for balanced at the minute I play all my music through a wee topping dac which doesn't have any balanced outputs. Good thing about putting the F4 together with the BA3 gain stage is it will be easy to add to when needed.
My final mission (A long way away) is to have an active crossover with F4's driving the speakers.
..
I have the feeling this is going to be a never ending mission! Always tweaking, and never happy 🙂
My final mission (A long way away) is to have an active crossover with F4's driving the speakers.
..
I have the feeling this is going to be a never ending mission! Always tweaking, and never happy 🙂
If you want dual transformers, you‘ll need 2x PSU boards, with twice the number of capacitors, bridges, etc… It’s cool, but adds a lot to complexity and expense.
That wee topping dac will drive the F4 fine at first.
The f-4 driven directly by a dac is probably the best overall sound I have ever heard: no gain stage, just a follower delivering current with the source. Basically, it becomes a dac that can drive a loudspeaker.
Keep it simple, build one F-4 to start with, with one PSU board / trafo.
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