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More here re the Frugel-Horn
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/246248-frugel-horn-xl-alpair-10-3-10p.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/246248-frugel-horn-xl-alpair-10-3-10p.html
I did the 230 mile round trip to visit and well worth it was too. It was great to see Ian again and wow the rearrangement of the room really works, sitting listening and looking at that fabulous view, totally cool.
And was treated to a very nice lunch.
But...Ian would really like me to comment on his amp...
well...
It is stunning - incredibly transparent, beautifully 'clean' sounding, and seems to convey every drop of detail from the recording to the speakers. Soundstage was broad, deep and oh so high - Ian played a great selection of his test tracks, most of which I knew well so was easy to evaluate - I have rarely heard such an expansive stage.
I had heard Ian's Alpair Frugal horns at an earlier occasions with his Ming Da and various D class amps etc - but with the Modulus 86 it was a completely different ball game. They sounded good on the other occasions but now they really sing and the new amp shows just what they are capable of. The total system sound was very reminiscent of a top flight Audionote setup...yes I've listened to several and it is that good.
Plus the bass was gobsmackingly low, tight, fast and surprised me just how much power it gave from those small drivers. Drums were wonderfully realistic.
Ian my friend you should be very proud of what you have built and Tom Christiansen must be congratulated on an excellent design.
However...even Gregory Porter wasn't improved IMHO by this fantastic system
And was treated to a very nice lunch.
But...Ian would really like me to comment on his amp...
well...
It is stunning - incredibly transparent, beautifully 'clean' sounding, and seems to convey every drop of detail from the recording to the speakers. Soundstage was broad, deep and oh so high - Ian played a great selection of his test tracks, most of which I knew well so was easy to evaluate - I have rarely heard such an expansive stage.
I had heard Ian's Alpair Frugal horns at an earlier occasions with his Ming Da and various D class amps etc - but with the Modulus 86 it was a completely different ball game. They sounded good on the other occasions but now they really sing and the new amp shows just what they are capable of. The total system sound was very reminiscent of a top flight Audionote setup...yes I've listened to several and it is that good.
Plus the bass was gobsmackingly low, tight, fast and surprised me just how much power it gave from those small drivers. Drums were wonderfully realistic.
Ian my friend you should be very proud of what you have built and Tom Christiansen must be congratulated on an excellent design.
However...even Gregory Porter wasn't improved IMHO by this fantastic system
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Willbewill, thanks for the great write up. It's encouraging to know that there's a good synergy there, as I'll end up with a similar set up. I'm nearly finished populating my Mod86 boards, and will hopefully have more time this weekend.
I've got a few sheets of Baltic Birch on hand, and I've been reading a lot about Frugal Horns with Alpair drivers.
I'm curious to know more about what you listened to at Ian's
Ian, don't you have Frugal Horn mk3 and also Frugal Horn XL?
Did you two listen to one, the other, or both? Are you running a sub too?
Sorry for off topic, great write up about amp; I'm just wondering which speakers you demo'd with.
Thanks,
I've got a few sheets of Baltic Birch on hand, and I've been reading a lot about Frugal Horns with Alpair drivers.
I'm curious to know more about what you listened to at Ian's
Ian, don't you have Frugal Horn mk3 and also Frugal Horn XL?
Did you two listen to one, the other, or both? Are you running a sub too?
Sorry for off topic, great write up about amp; I'm just wondering which speakers you demo'd with.
Thanks,
Hi Alex,
Yes I do have both Frugel Horns and the XL model but testing was done purely with the XL's. No sub required!
We listened to a wide variety of music from Agnes Obel through to Massive Attack. Agnes Obel and other female singers, sweet detailed and voice well projected above background.
Eagles, Hotel California, live version from Hell Freezes Over - when I was drawing up the playlist I tried this track for the powerful intro. My jaw dropped when I heard the thwack boom of the bass drum and when Malcolm (Willbewill) arrived I watched him when this track started - same effect, an involuntary opening of the mouth
The power and control the Modulus-86 had over the Alpairs was staggering! Next up was Massive Attack's Angel, multilayered, complex and can easily degrade into noise. The Modulus/Alpair combination just delivered a wall of scary sound and even when it got complicated individual parts were easily discernable. Other tracks included Lindisfarne's Fog on the Tyne with a real sense of a band playing together and the Winter Song where the acoustic guitar was fabulous. We listened for a couple of hours and then had lunch after which Malcolm wanted to hear more! Bat for Lashes, Gregory Porter (Malcolm hates jazz ) King Crimson, Emiliana Torrini, in other words a wide variety of "modern" music. There's a real synergy between the Frugel Horns and the Modulus-86, some people would describe the sound as fast although I'm never sure what that means. I think it means that individual instruments and notes are clearly audible in their own space and don't smear into each other. Later today I'm going to try the amp with some open baffles, Alpair 12p +15" Visaton woofers. They don't go as deep as the XL's mainly because the baffle is more room friendly than it is functional but they do have that lovely, spacious open baffle quality.
Yes I do have both Frugel Horns and the XL model but testing was done purely with the XL's. No sub required!
We listened to a wide variety of music from Agnes Obel through to Massive Attack. Agnes Obel and other female singers, sweet detailed and voice well projected above background.
Eagles, Hotel California, live version from Hell Freezes Over - when I was drawing up the playlist I tried this track for the powerful intro. My jaw dropped when I heard the thwack boom of the bass drum and when Malcolm (Willbewill) arrived I watched him when this track started - same effect, an involuntary opening of the mouth
The power and control the Modulus-86 had over the Alpairs was staggering! Next up was Massive Attack's Angel, multilayered, complex and can easily degrade into noise. The Modulus/Alpair combination just delivered a wall of scary sound and even when it got complicated individual parts were easily discernable. Other tracks included Lindisfarne's Fog on the Tyne with a real sense of a band playing together and the Winter Song where the acoustic guitar was fabulous. We listened for a couple of hours and then had lunch after which Malcolm wanted to hear more! Bat for Lashes, Gregory Porter (Malcolm hates jazz ) King Crimson, Emiliana Torrini, in other words a wide variety of "modern" music. There's a real synergy between the Frugel Horns and the Modulus-86, some people would describe the sound as fast although I'm never sure what that means. I think it means that individual instruments and notes are clearly audible in their own space and don't smear into each other. Later today I'm going to try the amp with some open baffles, Alpair 12p +15" Visaton woofers. They don't go as deep as the XL's mainly because the baffle is more room friendly than it is functional but they do have that lovely, spacious open baffle quality.Building mod86 is taking a long time, but only because my schedule is so busy. I've really only spent a few hours so far, and I bet I only need a few more hours work. (Edit: well maybe I have closer to 8 hours into these. I think it's been a few times that I was able to sit down with it for a couple hours)
Originally I was going to build 6 amps, to triamp a pair of three ways. I've changed my mind on speakers though. 330 liter three ways are a little big for WAF. She likes the pictures of Frugal Horns though.
I have two heat sinks, two trafo's, so I'll get one more mod86 board from Tom, then I can decide if I want to run subs with FH, or split it into 2 stereos for 2 different rooms in the house.
I know what you mean about fast, it's a description I hear but it may mean different things to different people. I figured the 4" in FH3 would be faster because they're lighter, and can therefore start and stop speaker cone movement very precisely revealing every detail of the music signal. But that's only half the story, the amp must also operate with precision to have a tight control over the movement of the speaker cone. So that's my definition for what it's worth, sharp percussion, separation of instruments, etc. I'll be looking more at FHXL. I know there will be even less time smearing if I can do it without the need for sub, and it sounds to me like the transients are quick and accurate when Alpairs are paired up with Mod86. Good stuff
Originally I was going to build 6 amps, to triamp a pair of three ways. I've changed my mind on speakers though. 330 liter three ways are a little big for WAF. She likes the pictures of Frugal Horns though.
I have two heat sinks, two trafo's, so I'll get one more mod86 board from Tom, then I can decide if I want to run subs with FH, or split it into 2 stereos for 2 different rooms in the house.
I know what you mean about fast, it's a description I hear but it may mean different things to different people. I figured the 4" in FH3 would be faster because they're lighter, and can therefore start and stop speaker cone movement very precisely revealing every detail of the music signal. But that's only half the story, the amp must also operate with precision to have a tight control over the movement of the speaker cone. So that's my definition for what it's worth, sharp percussion, separation of instruments, etc. I'll be looking more at FHXL. I know there will be even less time smearing if I can do it without the need for sub, and it sounds to me like the transients are quick and accurate when Alpairs are paired up with Mod86. Good stuff
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Hi Alex,
From your photos it looks like you are nearly there - it must be hard to resist! Re subs, well everyone has their own definition of bass but I've never been totally satisfied trying to integrate a sub with the main speakers and if you do go ahead with the XL's I think you'll be surprised how low they go with real power and presence. I agree with your description of "fast" and I think that's exactly what the Alpair + Modulus-86 will give you. I'm getting mildly excited seeing another build come closer to fruition!
From your photos it looks like you are nearly there - it must be hard to resist! Re subs, well everyone has their own definition of bass but I've never been totally satisfied trying to integrate a sub with the main speakers and if you do go ahead with the XL's I think you'll be surprised how low they go with real power and presence. I agree with your description of "fast" and I think that's exactly what the Alpair + Modulus-86 will give you. I'm getting mildly excited seeing another build come closer to fruition!
I think that the best way to make a good speaker perform badly is to ask/demand that it works outside it's good performance window.
One aspect of this "good performance window" is the low frequency capability.
Ask a good speaker to reproduce low frequencies that are really beyond what the speaker can do and you reduce overall performance.
I believe that getting EACH speaker driver to perform well in it's "good performance window" will reap rewards in final sound quality.
One aspect of this "good performance window" is the low frequency capability.
Ask a good speaker to reproduce low frequencies that are really beyond what the speaker can do and you reduce overall performance.
I believe that getting EACH speaker driver to perform well in it's "good performance window" will reap rewards in final sound quality.
I'm not sure what your point is here, Andrew. Full-range drivers are quite common and perform very well within their intended range of operation. I run a pair of Alpair 6P in one of Dave's (Planet-10) enclosures as my computer speakers. They sound great. They measure reasonably flat down to about 100 Hz. Not bad for a 3" driver.
The bigger Alpair drivers will extend deeper. They perform really well at reasonable SPL (say 80-ish dB(A) 2-3 m away). If you want chest-thumping bass and ear-piercing highs, you'll be looking at a multi-way system. Now you have all sorts of directivity wobbles to deal with. Have fun...
I'm quite happy with my 4xMOD86 on my LXmini speakers (full-range dipole above 1 kHz, omni woofer below 1 kHz). It would be nice with dipole bass and I may get my paws on a loaner pair of SL Orion speakers. Must ... build ... more ... amplifiers.
Tom
The bigger Alpair drivers will extend deeper. They perform really well at reasonable SPL (say 80-ish dB(A) 2-3 m away). If you want chest-thumping bass and ear-piercing highs, you'll be looking at a multi-way system. Now you have all sorts of directivity wobbles to deal with. Have fun...
I'm quite happy with my 4xMOD86 on my LXmini speakers (full-range dipole above 1 kHz, omni woofer below 1 kHz). It would be nice with dipole bass and I may get my paws on a loaner pair of SL Orion speakers. Must ... build ... more ... amplifiers.
Tom
As an audible who does not run through "equipment of the month" or "year," and who likes to listen to music without constant tweaking, I think the response was a counterpoint to Ian's observation on the performance one can obtain with a full-range driver, and the issues associated with integrating a subwoofer to a full-range system.
We all know that electronics and engineering in general is a matter of compromise and deciding what key objectives are to be met and what the negatives one is willing to tolerate. No "right" answer, and as long as one understands the tradeoffs and perhaps looks forward to some of them (here, the "tweaking" which is part of the joy for many in DIY), then we all should be happy, no?
We all know that electronics and engineering in general is a matter of compromise and deciding what key objectives are to be met and what the negatives one is willing to tolerate. No "right" answer, and as long as one understands the tradeoffs and perhaps looks forward to some of them (here, the "tweaking" which is part of the joy for many in DIY), then we all should be happy, no?
I read Andrew's response a bit as "you could have done it differently", which is entirely true. That will always be the case. All I did was to point out that the Alpair drivers are really quite good, so there's no need to poo-poo them. That's all.
Some people enjoy tweaking. I used to do that, but now I'm more in the "design it right the first time, build it, enjoy it" camp. Each to his own.
Now, if I get a good idea for how to improve something, that's a different story. In those cases, I'll fire up the circuit simulator and test the new ideas.
Tom
Some people enjoy tweaking. I used to do that, but now I'm more in the "design it right the first time, build it, enjoy it" camp. Each to his own.
Now, if I get a good idea for how to improve something, that's a different story. In those cases, I'll fire up the circuit simulator and test the new ideas.
Tom
I'm with you (except that I can't design so I rely on others)! I understand, however, the fun that many get from tweaking and trying different approaches with different trade-offs, to see what works best for their own proclivities.
My friend is building a Modulus, and I am awaiting his completion and impressions. I'm going to have to wait a year until my budget allows it, but the Power 86 is in my sights, for all the reasons you mention.
My friend is building a Modulus, and I am awaiting his completion and impressions. I'm going to have to wait a year until my budget allows it, but the Power 86 is in my sights, for all the reasons you mention.
Modulus-86 Rev. 1.0 vs 2.0
One question that pops up on occasion is "how much better is the Rev. 2.0 than Rev. 1.0". I finally had time to dig out a Rev. 1.0 board and compare. The THD of Rev. 2.0 is a tad better than Rev. 1.0. You also get an additional 3-4 W of output power and 10 dB lower mains hum in Rev. 2.0. The most interesting plot is the THD vs Freq. which I've attached. The measurement was done at 35 W into 8 Ω to allow both revisions to be measured.
Tom
One question that pops up on occasion is "how much better is the Rev. 2.0 than Rev. 1.0". I finally had time to dig out a Rev. 1.0 board and compare. The THD of Rev. 2.0 is a tad better than Rev. 1.0. You also get an additional 3-4 W of output power and 10 dB lower mains hum in Rev. 2.0. The most interesting plot is the THD vs Freq. which I've attached. The measurement was done at 35 W into 8 Ω to allow both revisions to be measured.
Tom
Attachments
The Layout is the Circuit
Now that I was playing in the lab anyway, I decided to mess with the feedback network in the Modulus-86 Rev. 2.0.
For the few skeptics out there who doubt the impact of the PCB (or P2P) layout, here's some data.
The graph shows THD+N vs Frequency at 35 W, 8 Ω output. The bottom graph is the THD+N of the raw Modulus-86 Rev. 2.0 with the THAT1200 removed (as I said, I was messing around).
The dark magenta line in the middle shows the THD+N with a 1000 uF bipolar capacitor in series with the feedback resistor to ground. The cap was mounted with rather long leads and the added inductance causes the THD to rise at higher frequencies.
The top line shows the impact of 60 mm (a bit over 2") of AWG 20 wire in series with the feedback resistor to ground.
Layout inductance matters. Even at audio frequencies.
That's enough messing around for one sitting. Goodnight.
Tom
Now that I was playing in the lab anyway, I decided to mess with the feedback network in the Modulus-86 Rev. 2.0.
For the few skeptics out there who doubt the impact of the PCB (or P2P) layout, here's some data.
The graph shows THD+N vs Frequency at 35 W, 8 Ω output. The bottom graph is the THD+N of the raw Modulus-86 Rev. 2.0 with the THAT1200 removed (as I said, I was messing around).
The dark magenta line in the middle shows the THD+N with a 1000 uF bipolar capacitor in series with the feedback resistor to ground. The cap was mounted with rather long leads and the added inductance causes the THD to rise at higher frequencies.
The top line shows the impact of 60 mm (a bit over 2") of AWG 20 wire in series with the feedback resistor to ground.
Layout inductance matters. Even at audio frequencies.
That's enough messing around for one sitting. Goodnight.
Tom
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I know Tom is quite rightly steering this thread back to the Modulus-86 but just a quick note re my recent experiences with speakers. In recent history I have owned Dynaudio Contour 1.8 Mk II and Proac Response 1.5 speakers neither of which is particularly bass shy especially the Dynaudios. However, I prefer the Frugel Horn XLs to both these. Single driver speakers have to my ears better imaging and more coherence. As good as the Proacs are (I only sold these a couple of weeks ago and the new owner is delighted with them) when I swapped back to them I was too aware of the presence of the tweeter as a separate entity. Now since I have plugged the Modulus-86 in to the system my preference between the Frugel Horns and these other multi-way speakers has increased not least because the bass from the Frugel Horns has got deeper and more controlled. I'm sure others would prefer the Dynaudios or Proacs but fortunately I'm putting my system together to suit me and I'm not aware of any shortcomings using this combination.
and I'm not aware of any shortcomings using this combination.
Actually I'm the one who usually grumps, mainly when one of the usual suspects just appears and chucks a few stones into the pond just to screw up the thread SNR. However as long as you are talking about speakers that you are driving with Mod-86 or going to drive with them, that is completely on topic
Full range is up there with SET as one of those technologies you get or don't get. I personally don't get, but what do I know, I use ribbons
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