Hi Freeman,
Attached a picture to show how you can wire a 12-0-12 transformer to the BiB board. Notice that I include both types of diodes the board supports, but you only use either type, not both.
My transformer color code:
Blue = 12V
Yellow = 0
Thanks,
Attachments
more power supply musings
In an earlier post (see post # 127), I commented on my comparison of the stock Subbu/JP LM723 power supply vs. an LT1764. With the right pre-filtering, I preferred the LT1764, finding that it gave more fleshed out bass and an overall bigger soundstage. One of the questions that I had was whether or not this was due to the greater output current capability of the LT1764. If that was the only difference then hooking up the V3 DAC to an output buffer such as the JG filter/buffer should lessen the difference between the two power supplies.
So I did just that. I connected the V3 DAC to an extra JG filter buffer that I'd built. The JG filter/buffer was powered from a dual 14 vac transformer driving a +-15v supply based on the TPS7A4700 regulator chip. I bought the power supply from the diyinhk webshop. The power supply is switchable for either +-12v or +-15v. The buffer sounded a bit more powerful at +-15v, so that's what I used for the comparison. You can see pictures of the whole thing below. It's obviously not a permanent set up - things are just wired together and lying on the a shelf with no case.
Power supply for the V3 DAC was then switched between the stock LM723 supply or the LT1764. And the results were unchanged from the earlier experiment. Even with the JG filter/buffer, the sound of the LT1764 was fuller and more three dimensional than the stock LM723 supply. The noise of the LT1764 is a bit higher than the LM723, so JP thinks that perhaps I like the sound of noise. But I don't think that's it. There is some dynamic behavior of the LT1764 that is better.
Next up is to try some shunt regulators, which Fred/PCHW kindly lent to me. The shunt regulators are the Salas BIB and the Salas Reflektor. It may take me a while to get these going, but I'll eventually compare these power supplies and see how they do.
---Gary
In an earlier post (see post # 127), I commented on my comparison of the stock Subbu/JP LM723 power supply vs. an LT1764. With the right pre-filtering, I preferred the LT1764, finding that it gave more fleshed out bass and an overall bigger soundstage. One of the questions that I had was whether or not this was due to the greater output current capability of the LT1764. If that was the only difference then hooking up the V3 DAC to an output buffer such as the JG filter/buffer should lessen the difference between the two power supplies.
So I did just that. I connected the V3 DAC to an extra JG filter buffer that I'd built. The JG filter/buffer was powered from a dual 14 vac transformer driving a +-15v supply based on the TPS7A4700 regulator chip. I bought the power supply from the diyinhk webshop. The power supply is switchable for either +-12v or +-15v. The buffer sounded a bit more powerful at +-15v, so that's what I used for the comparison. You can see pictures of the whole thing below. It's obviously not a permanent set up - things are just wired together and lying on the a shelf with no case.
Power supply for the V3 DAC was then switched between the stock LM723 supply or the LT1764. And the results were unchanged from the earlier experiment. Even with the JG filter/buffer, the sound of the LT1764 was fuller and more three dimensional than the stock LM723 supply. The noise of the LT1764 is a bit higher than the LM723, so JP thinks that perhaps I like the sound of noise. But I don't think that's it. There is some dynamic behavior of the LT1764 that is better.
Next up is to try some shunt regulators, which Fred/PCHW kindly lent to me. The shunt regulators are the Salas BIB and the Salas Reflektor. It may take me a while to get these going, but I'll eventually compare these power supplies and see how they do.
---Gary
Attachments
Hi Gary, I can not go onto details but if you are patient (again) I think I have an interesting upgrade.
BTW I also like noise... here are 2 of my favourites (sorry for the substandard sound quality on Youtube):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuO3wwLuF0w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt56-z-QuG8
BTW I also like noise... here are 2 of my favourites (sorry for the substandard sound quality on Youtube):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuO3wwLuF0w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt56-z-QuG8
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JG filter/buffer cap
By the way, I'd forgotten how much I don't like PPS capacitors. The JG filter/buffer uses a 150pf cap to ground at the gate of the JFETs and in my opinion using a PPS cap there wrecks the sound. I learned this when I built my first JG buffer from the board supplied by EUVL and ended up replacing the BOM 150pf PPS cap with a 150pf Wima FKP polypro cap. And I just relearned it again because I used a PPS cap when I built the buffer in the picture a few posts back and I couldn't figure out why the buffer sounded so bad. Replacing the 150pf PPS cap with a Wima FKP cap again fixed things. This is inconvenient, since the board is made for a small SMD cap and the Wimas are big, so it requires ad hoc placement but it's not too bad. Just a word to the wise.
---Gary
By the way, I'd forgotten how much I don't like PPS capacitors. The JG filter/buffer uses a 150pf cap to ground at the gate of the JFETs and in my opinion using a PPS cap there wrecks the sound. I learned this when I built my first JG buffer from the board supplied by EUVL and ended up replacing the BOM 150pf PPS cap with a 150pf Wima FKP polypro cap. And I just relearned it again because I used a PPS cap when I built the buffer in the picture a few posts back and I couldn't figure out why the buffer sounded so bad. Replacing the 150pf PPS cap with a Wima FKP cap again fixed things. This is inconvenient, since the board is made for a small SMD cap and the Wimas are big, so it requires ad hoc placement but it's not too bad. Just a word to the wise.
---Gary
Attachments
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Now i have 150pf caps sold by SWALTER in miniGB, i don't know what dielectric. You used the same parts from Swalter ?
According to the GB spreadsheet on Google Docs, the part used is a 150pf 16v PPS capacitor, Panasonic ECH-U1C151JX5. That is the same part that I used.
I've read of people having good success with PPS capacitors but they are also notorious for being very fragile and easy to damage. So it's quite possible that I've overheated the caps and damaged them. I've not had that problem with other SMD parts but this is the second time I've had trouble with PPS caps. Perhaps your soldering skills are better than mine and you won't have a problem. But in the future, for a size 0603 ceramic cap, I'd use a 150pf NP0 ceramic cap. These should work well for filtering and are a bit more robust.
---Gary
thank you GarryB, Atupi for the tips,
As I'm planning to do my BOM this week for the buffer and the second Subbu DAC I will follow you for a second little bit less Hortodox DACc...but just lightly: MKT470 instead Wimas (as the MKT 1822 are too much big 😉 for C8, C13, C35, C21. for C29 & C30 I will populate maybe with acrylic dielectric smd caps from Cornell Dublier... C35 will be with 1 uF (My first was with 3.6 uF because has it already).
For the local decoupling of the ES9023, my understanging after reading the answers of questions before is I will not hear difference between ceramic X7R class 2 and NPO class 1 (also for the Fox Xo maybe: see Marce answer). So I will stay with 1 uf X7R instead 0,68 nf NPO (the bigger value I can find). Also the littlier body size of X7R caps seems to be more hearable (08xx or 06xx size if you are able to solder those sizes).
For C17 I will follow Marce with the picture of Korben69 but with 1000 pF and 10 nF (this last value is advised by Fox on the Datasheet for local decoupling) but I surmise If JP/Subbu took 4,7 uf then 1 uf, it was more for local reservoir with some reasons (their own measurements and test...) . But cost nothing to try as Marce have great experience with that. Maybe my 10 nf will be too low.
Didactic...
For C4 will alternate with smd X7R and COG 1 uf (5mm spacing) I have)
Thank you for R2 tip in the Buffer as my bad understanding was we didn't need R2 & C3 because the Jfets was selected and matched...😕(mine was sended by mark from Xen Audio !).
Gary, as I believe Subbu wanted to empty its stock before new projects, I took also a PS pcb : I will try this one (with the resistors needed for 9V) for my squeezebox Duet and will tell if I can hear some improvements and if the differents spidf cables can be less hearable . As JP said LM723 has less noise than the LT1764 so I surmise the LM723 can be good at this place for supplying the Duet.
I will try the LT1764 for the second DAC and will compare with my first LM723 PS.
Did you make your own LT1764 PS on a bare double layer pcb ? Can you post please the resistors values for 5V out if you have time for that ?
At least after those tests I will try snubbers on secondaries but don't have scope, here it's 50 hz not 60 hz and i can just try fastly but can not hfind a precise setup alone at home... I will try for fun (I do the same with real apples and wines... I like to waste my time into steriles subtilities 😀 ... the old world).
I will post only if i can hear suffisant differences far enough to flavor... and only compare step by step with apple to apple.
I'm now playing with old dac chips and Sure electronics spidf to I2S receiver pcb made around the W8804 for hobby & fun as well.🙂.
As I'm planning to do my BOM this week for the buffer and the second Subbu DAC I will follow you for a second little bit less Hortodox DACc...but just lightly: MKT470 instead Wimas (as the MKT 1822 are too much big 😉 for C8, C13, C35, C21. for C29 & C30 I will populate maybe with acrylic dielectric smd caps from Cornell Dublier... C35 will be with 1 uF (My first was with 3.6 uF because has it already).
For the local decoupling of the ES9023, my understanging after reading the answers of questions before is I will not hear difference between ceramic X7R class 2 and NPO class 1 (also for the Fox Xo maybe: see Marce answer). So I will stay with 1 uf X7R instead 0,68 nf NPO (the bigger value I can find). Also the littlier body size of X7R caps seems to be more hearable (08xx or 06xx size if you are able to solder those sizes).
For C17 I will follow Marce with the picture of Korben69 but with 1000 pF and 10 nF (this last value is advised by Fox on the Datasheet for local decoupling) but I surmise If JP/Subbu took 4,7 uf then 1 uf, it was more for local reservoir with some reasons (their own measurements and test...) . But cost nothing to try as Marce have great experience with that. Maybe my 10 nf will be too low.
Didactic...For C4 will alternate with smd X7R and COG 1 uf (5mm spacing) I have)
Thank you for R2 tip in the Buffer as my bad understanding was we didn't need R2 & C3 because the Jfets was selected and matched...😕(mine was sended by mark from Xen Audio !).
Gary, as I believe Subbu wanted to empty its stock before new projects, I took also a PS pcb : I will try this one (with the resistors needed for 9V) for my squeezebox Duet and will tell if I can hear some improvements and if the differents spidf cables can be less hearable . As JP said LM723 has less noise than the LT1764 so I surmise the LM723 can be good at this place for supplying the Duet.
I will try the LT1764 for the second DAC and will compare with my first LM723 PS.
Did you make your own LT1764 PS on a bare double layer pcb ? Can you post please the resistors values for 5V out if you have time for that ?
At least after those tests I will try snubbers on secondaries but don't have scope, here it's 50 hz not 60 hz and i can just try fastly but can not hfind a precise setup alone at home... I will try for fun (I do the same with real apples and wines... I like to waste my time into steriles subtilities 😀 ... the old world).
I will post only if i can hear suffisant differences far enough to flavor... and only compare step by step with apple to apple.
I'm now playing with old dac chips and Sure electronics spidf to I2S receiver pcb made around the W8804 for hobby & fun as well.🙂.
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Eldam,
You cover a lot of ground and are planning many, many changes. I think mostly you were just telling us your future plans but I think there was a question or two hidden in there.
1) Regarding the JG buffer - matched JFETs means that the BF862s don't need source resistors. You still need R2 and C3. If you skip R2 then there is an open circuit and you will get no sound.
2) Regarding a PC board for the LT1764, please see post #127 for the details. I bought it on ebay.
3) Regarding snubbers - it doesn't matter if it's 50hz or 60hz. Snubbers are designed to damp much higher frequency noise and do not interact with the power line frequency.
Good luck with your endeavors.
---Gary
Thank you Garry for your benevolant reading,
You know me, I cut my finger, i'm looking for a little bandage, at the end I look like Tutankhamon !
for open circuit...😀 i know that with just few things like its better to switch on the powersupply tio listen music... 😀 , you are a gentleman. I palnned to put a 0 ohm resistor... well it will be the 470R Sussumu (and the cap).
Yes a lot of little two cents things, some maybe will interest you some not. It's just for playing and learn as i have a first bless orthodox version which sing, this one will be the "Erasmus version". After all we saw than C22 can sing better with sepc and so on...
let be positive as youy are.
You know me, I cut my finger, i'm looking for a little bandage, at the end I look like Tutankhamon !
for open circuit...😀 i know that with just few things like its better to switch on the powersupply tio listen music... 😀 , you are a gentleman. I palnned to put a 0 ohm resistor... well it will be the 470R Sussumu (and the cap).
Yes a lot of little two cents things, some maybe will interest you some not. It's just for playing and learn as i have a first bless orthodox version which sing, this one will be the "Erasmus version". After all we saw than C22 can sing better with sepc and so on...
let be positive as youy are.
My experience
Hi,
I have tried a few DACs as an experiment. The setup is as
SB touch Coax output to DAC to P101 amp. P101 is from Rod Elliots site using his pcb and works quite well.
I have tried a AK4396 DAC with a recommended BOM from the diyaudio site.
Tried a Weiling DAC7 with dual WM8741 from ebay.
Tried the Subbu DAC V3 (built by Phil).
Tried the plain RCA output from the SB touch.
I did not find much of a difference between the 4. Are my expectations from Subbu DAC too much? Should I try a ES9018 or just call it a day with DIY DACs?
Rgds
Vinod
Hi,
I have tried a few DACs as an experiment. The setup is as
SB touch Coax output to DAC to P101 amp. P101 is from Rod Elliots site using his pcb and works quite well.
I have tried a AK4396 DAC with a recommended BOM from the diyaudio site.
Tried a Weiling DAC7 with dual WM8741 from ebay.
Tried the Subbu DAC V3 (built by Phil).
Tried the plain RCA output from the SB touch.
I did not find much of a difference between the 4. Are my expectations from Subbu DAC too much? Should I try a ES9018 or just call it a day with DIY DACs?
Rgds
Vinod
If in your opinion all 4 Dacs sound similar i dare to say your system is not able to show the differences. Before investing in new dacs maybe you need better speakers or better amplifier.
I have subbu v3 and akm4396 dac based on Dario Fremen bom and they sound different.
I have subbu v3 and akm4396 dac based on Dario Fremen bom and they sound different.
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With all due respect... but when you do not hear much difference between the internal DAC of the SB and the Subbu, for instance... call it a day and stay with the SB.
I guess everything else would be a waste of money then. And I doubt that an ES9018 will be heaps better...
I guess everything else would be a waste of money then. And I doubt that an ES9018 will be heaps better...
Vinodt,
Can you tell us more about your speakers please ?
My own experience is the Subbu DAC is a bargain. The sound is the better I had at home but had more experiments with old multibit DAC chips. My family think the same and most of the time they just don't care as the main interest is to listen just music.
I have an old DVD palyer Philips DVD 5500 SACD with deeply mooded powersuplly with or without batteries, output lundhal transformer... better with dynamics and mid bass and bass. very neutral (they are good tweakers in france but their english is worse that mine... yes it's possible ! )
but with jazz and classic, the Subbu is far better...and i have not try the JG buffer yet !
At the end i have two tweaked Squeeze Box Duet, and i can tell you they are far behind the Subbu.
Maybe you have a "problem" elsewhere. garry and I have the same squeeze Box transport and are agree with little fanatics details (but important as we are fanatics here) like the change of caps with C18/C22 !
but maybe others DAC are good as well, but have a doubt as you say your standalone squeezebox are in the same league. About the ES9000_, you can trust my friend Stixx, it willl add nothing to you but the waste of money.
Maybe the time to go with different speakers : why not the last linkwitz OB if you have place and money or the last JG monitor if your room is too little for big speakers. Of course with all due of respect. I think we will understand more with explanation about a description of your system. The idea below : with the saving money from stopping buying DACs you go with a better speaker... if they are the cause ! (it's fun after rewrite to look for the mistakes of english i am able to see, two others gentle fellows think exactly the same !)
Can you tell us more about your speakers please ?
My own experience is the Subbu DAC is a bargain. The sound is the better I had at home but had more experiments with old multibit DAC chips. My family think the same and most of the time they just don't care as the main interest is to listen just music.
I have an old DVD palyer Philips DVD 5500 SACD with deeply mooded powersuplly with or without batteries, output lundhal transformer... better with dynamics and mid bass and bass. very neutral (they are good tweakers in france but their english is worse that mine... yes it's possible ! )
but with jazz and classic, the Subbu is far better...and i have not try the JG buffer yet !
At the end i have two tweaked Squeeze Box Duet, and i can tell you they are far behind the Subbu.
Maybe you have a "problem" elsewhere. garry and I have the same squeeze Box transport and are agree with little fanatics details (but important as we are fanatics here) like the change of caps with C18/C22 !
but maybe others DAC are good as well, but have a doubt as you say your standalone squeezebox are in the same league. About the ES9000_, you can trust my friend Stixx, it willl add nothing to you but the waste of money.
Maybe the time to go with different speakers : why not the last linkwitz OB if you have place and money or the last JG monitor if your room is too little for big speakers. Of course with all due of respect. I think we will understand more with explanation about a description of your system. The idea below : with the saving money from stopping buying DACs you go with a better speaker... if they are the cause ! (it's fun after rewrite to look for the mistakes of english i am able to see, two others gentle fellows think exactly the same !)
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Hi,
I have B&W 685 speakers. I think they are ok - could do better but dont have the budget!!.
Non of the DACs sound bad as such and there are very small differences in the sound but nothing earth shattering.
Maybe its my ears but cant change them. Or my music - mostly Jazz and Indian Classical.. Cant change that either.
Any thoughts on the speakers?
Rgds
Vinod
I have B&W 685 speakers. I think they are ok - could do better but dont have the budget!!.
Non of the DACs sound bad as such and there are very small differences in the sound but nothing earth shattering.
Maybe its my ears but cant change them. Or my music - mostly Jazz and Indian Classical.. Cant change that either.
Any thoughts on the speakers?
Rgds
Vinod
In regards to others devices of your system my personal thought is they are the weak link... I know this speaker...
My personal two cents : stay with subbu and off course squeeze box for transport, sell the others. Wait, save money, in last sell the speakers and go for a better speaker which feet with the size of your room. Maybe after a little class A or modern Hypex if you have money in a second time (I maid my own system step by step... with second hand only).
I think you can not make a big mistage with the last Joachim Monitors. of course Zaph Audio, Troels....
But second hand woerth a try (DIY can be boring sometimes and if no skill you waste all your money if you make a too bad box):
Dynaudio 52 SE, some Kefs, you have choice and can find a very good little speaker for 500 pounds, some Audio Monitors are bargain as well. Ypur country is great for that as all the little cars you have like MG, Catheram... fun spirit and good enough 5 I still have my Kef 104/2... Damned what a soundstage, dynamics, upper-mid tweet... they just sing !)
My personal two cents : stay with subbu and off course squeeze box for transport, sell the others. Wait, save money, in last sell the speakers and go for a better speaker which feet with the size of your room. Maybe after a little class A or modern Hypex if you have money in a second time (I maid my own system step by step... with second hand only).
I think you can not make a big mistage with the last Joachim Monitors. of course Zaph Audio, Troels....
But second hand woerth a try (DIY can be boring sometimes and if no skill you waste all your money if you make a too bad box):
Dynaudio 52 SE, some Kefs, you have choice and can find a very good little speaker for 500 pounds, some Audio Monitors are bargain as well. Ypur country is great for that as all the little cars you have like MG, Catheram... fun spirit and good enough 5 I still have my Kef 104/2... Damned what a soundstage, dynamics, upper-mid tweet... they just sing !)
Hi, what is the material you use ? 16 bit 44.1 kHz ? FLAC ? MP3 (for Gods sake) ?
Hi,
Its mostly 24/96 or 16/44.1 mix of both. Mostly FLAC few mp3. FLAC mostly downloaded from music sites or ripped via Jriver.
There should be a reason of DACs sounding the same. If you don't hear much difference between the stock output of the SB Touch and the Subbu V3 then there is definitely something not going according the plan. Not wanting to be rude but it could also be your hearing. I have a hard time getting used to the need of wearing glasses while my brain thinks I don't need them. Still I have red eyes and a headache everyday 😉
Some questions:
1. How is the quality of the mains voltage at your place ?
2. Are there GSM/UMTS transmitters around in close vicinity ?
3. I know the power supply of the SB Touch radiates garbage back to the net. Did you also try another source ?
Some questions:
1. How is the quality of the mains voltage at your place ?
2. Are there GSM/UMTS transmitters around in close vicinity ?
3. I know the power supply of the SB Touch radiates garbage back to the net. Did you also try another source ?
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