Yes, I am a puzzle!
I buy as I need, not just to "have it" - I have not needed too many metric hex bits. (I barely use the starderd ones I have). I prefer torx (star drive) hardware. Lowes and HD are at least two hours away. Local hardware stores do not have the items I want - but I will check out that bit kit you mention from Wal-mart. That will fit both the power driver and my multi bit screw driver. Kind of funny really, I have not really built up my confidence to use a power driver on Alpair, becuase of the plastic, but you are right, with the clutch set low enough, I should be alright! Thanx.
If you are wondering, no, I do not have "common sense!" No such thing!
I have something better, knowing that I do not know what I do not know!
Love, Allen
I buy as I need, not just to "have it" - I have not needed too many metric hex bits. (I barely use the starderd ones I have). I prefer torx (star drive) hardware. Lowes and HD are at least two hours away. Local hardware stores do not have the items I want - but I will check out that bit kit you mention from Wal-mart. That will fit both the power driver and my multi bit screw driver. Kind of funny really, I have not really built up my confidence to use a power driver on Alpair, becuase of the plastic, but you are right, with the clutch set low enough, I should be alright! Thanx.
If you are wondering, no, I do not have "common sense!" No such thing!
I have something better, knowing that I do not know what I do not know!
Love, Allen
I guess I should have used a smiley. I don't use anything but Robertson or, just because I like the look, hex-head (Allen) cap screws. Using any screw that is prone to slip around drivers is asking for a disaster.
Bob
The cat out of the bag!
I have heard that I am picky when it comes to sound. I think it has something to do with being 100% blind in my right eye since birth! I have a caterac in my left eye that I am hoping to get fixed soon, but as you can imagine the doctors are afraid! I am 39 years old in the middle of living life, no time to settle for mediocre or common. Every single one of us are here to be great!
God bless you all.
Love, Allen
PS, on the lighter side of things, why are we using straight blade screws?
I have heard that I am picky when it comes to sound. I think it has something to do with being 100% blind in my right eye since birth! I have a caterac in my left eye that I am hoping to get fixed soon, but as you can imagine the doctors are afraid! I am 39 years old in the middle of living life, no time to settle for mediocre or common. Every single one of us are here to be great!
God bless you all.
Love, Allen
PS, on the lighter side of things, why are we using straight blade screws?
Hi Guys,
Bob Brines has kindly offered some pointers on the use of power tools. A quick note on the use of power tools when tightening driver mounting screws onto or into baffles, please take extra care with this method. Its very easy to over-tighten the screws. If you're going to use a power tool, please check/do:
1 - Set the torque clutch on the power tool to "screw driver mode" and to its lowest setting.
2 - Drill centred pilot holes into the baffle (M4 self-tapping wood screws usually need a 2.5-mm wood bit) prior to driver installation.
3 - Make sure all mating surfaces are flat.
4 - For recessed mounting, make sure the driver to frame fit is not tight.
Take a look at the attached pic. This is the tool I use to tighten screws. Once pilot holes are made, its an ideal tool to "feel" the modest tightness needed to secure Markaudio drivers (and many others) onto/into baffles. Together with a steel straight edge ruler, Its easy to adjust the level of the frame with this tool. Also handy for maintenance tightening over the months/years of system use.
Cheers
Mark.
Bob Brines has kindly offered some pointers on the use of power tools. A quick note on the use of power tools when tightening driver mounting screws onto or into baffles, please take extra care with this method. Its very easy to over-tighten the screws. If you're going to use a power tool, please check/do:
1 - Set the torque clutch on the power tool to "screw driver mode" and to its lowest setting.
2 - Drill centred pilot holes into the baffle (M4 self-tapping wood screws usually need a 2.5-mm wood bit) prior to driver installation.
3 - Make sure all mating surfaces are flat.
4 - For recessed mounting, make sure the driver to frame fit is not tight.
Take a look at the attached pic. This is the tool I use to tighten screws. Once pilot holes are made, its an ideal tool to "feel" the modest tightness needed to secure Markaudio drivers (and many others) onto/into baffles. Together with a steel straight edge ruler, Its easy to adjust the level of the frame with this tool. Also handy for maintenance tightening over the months/years of system use.
Cheers
Mark.
Attachments
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Advice from the man himself!
Thanks for the detailed information, Mark. Quite honestly, I would have prefered if the whole cover would have come off, then I would see what I am gluing, but I will give this a go!
Thanks Mark, that is the tool I have been looking for. It is not availible in my rural area in the Metric size I need, however, maybe I can have one ordered or order one online.
Thanks for the detailed information, Mark. Quite honestly, I would have prefered if the whole cover would have come off, then I would see what I am gluing, but I will give this a go!
Thanks Mark, that is the tool I have been looking for. It is not availible in my rural area in the Metric size I need, however, maybe I can have one ordered or order one online.
Thanks Dave, relavent and to the point.
Wow, I guess I play my system LOUD! Here I am, thinking that 40 watts is not enough! Although the TubeLab PP may be a better match tonally and play better at lower levels. I look forward to hearing Zia's listening impressions.
Allen
Wow, I guess I play my system LOUD! Here I am, thinking that 40 watts is not enough! Although the TubeLab PP may be a better match tonally and play better at lower levels. I look forward to hearing Zia's listening impressions.
Allen
Allen my friend, all watts are not alike... I have never been able to wrap my head around this.
I am down with flu; will probably re-engage next weekend.
Take care.
- Zia
Clarification to "Cat out of the bag"
I am making sure no one misinterprets my post above. I am NOT saying Douglas or anyone else is settling for mediocrity! That is why we are here DIYing. Infact, I am saying that I am happy that Douglas has found greatness in what he has, and can move forward to more great things: ie finishing his Clairtone Progect G! I, on the other hand, rely heavily on my ears "to see". And as a result of that, have a very different perception of the world and what I desire out of a sound system. So I will apologize if I have overwhelmed anyone with too many questions or concerns that they are flat out not listening for! I will still ask, but now you know why!
You all have a great night!
Allen
I am making sure no one misinterprets my post above. I am NOT saying Douglas or anyone else is settling for mediocrity! That is why we are here DIYing. Infact, I am saying that I am happy that Douglas has found greatness in what he has, and can move forward to more great things: ie finishing his Clairtone Progect G! I, on the other hand, rely heavily on my ears "to see". And as a result of that, have a very different perception of the world and what I desire out of a sound system. So I will apologize if I have overwhelmed anyone with too many questions or concerns that they are flat out not listening for! I will still ask, but now you know why!
You all have a great night!
Allen
Allen my friend, all watts are not alike... I have never been able to wrap my head around this.
I have wondered about that also, I can not warp my head around that one either!
Zia, I am praying for your wellness.
Allen
It is about how an amplifier clips, and when it clips how gracefully it recovers.
dave
Hi Allen,
Ummmmmmmph......reading about your sight limitations, have you got a friend who can help you re-glue the cover? Or wondering if we could ask Dave to help (not sure if he's busy)? He's in BC so maybe cheap to send it to him?
I'm clean out of this model of driver but have some spare covers if needed.
Yes, this tool (or similar) is easy to use. Given your sight limitations, this tool should be much easier to use, as you can easily guide the tool and screw to frame.
Cheers
Mark.
Do I have it right?
So what you are saying is that an amp rated at 15 watts/channel RMS with 0.5% THD may be able to produce 60 watts/channel before chipping at 5% THD and have enough current to recover gracefully. And the 5% THD of this given amp may even sound desirable becuase it adds harmonically correct color to the music (even ordered)? Where as another amp is rated for 40 watts/channel at 0.5% THD, but clips right away and trips up and falls down on recovery? My examples are only somewhat hypethical. In other words, it is possible for the TubeLab PP to out perform my chip amps as in the example above, if indeed I did not mind the added 5% color?
Thanks, Dave
So what you are saying is that an amp rated at 15 watts/channel RMS with 0.5% THD may be able to produce 60 watts/channel before chipping at 5% THD and have enough current to recover gracefully. And the 5% THD of this given amp may even sound desirable becuase it adds harmonically correct color to the music (even ordered)? Where as another amp is rated for 40 watts/channel at 0.5% THD, but clips right away and trips up and falls down on recovery? My examples are only somewhat hypethical. In other words, it is possible for the TubeLab PP to out perform my chip amps as in the example above, if indeed I did not mind the added 5% color?
Thanks, Dave
A humbling experience
Thanks for your concern, Mark. As I have been "one eyed" all my life, I do not "know" a limitation. At work, I am the detail guy, as I have the "eye" for it. But, I admit, it is getting harder! The limitation for me is the caterac, as I could see 20/20 with my glasses before, where as now, I am 20/40. The caterac cuases me to see a faded double (actually multiples) of the original object I am seeing. It can be distracting! But I am very independent and stubborn with my "I can do it" attitude...
However, as Alpair 12 as your masterful creation and you took the time out of your busy day to post this concern on my behalf, I will heed your warning! I am not hurrying this! I am going to check out the speaker, and "see" if I feel comfortable doing it, then pray, and sleep on it. After that I will make a decision. If I have any doubts what so ever, I will more then likely have Dave do it, as he knows what he is doing!
This caterac business has been a humbleing experience, at times humiliating, especailly at my age! God has His reasons!
Thanks again,
Allen
Thanks for your concern, Mark. As I have been "one eyed" all my life, I do not "know" a limitation. At work, I am the detail guy, as I have the "eye" for it. But, I admit, it is getting harder! The limitation for me is the caterac, as I could see 20/20 with my glasses before, where as now, I am 20/40. The caterac cuases me to see a faded double (actually multiples) of the original object I am seeing. It can be distracting! But I am very independent and stubborn with my "I can do it" attitude...
However, as Alpair 12 as your masterful creation and you took the time out of your busy day to post this concern on my behalf, I will heed your warning! I am not hurrying this! I am going to check out the speaker, and "see" if I feel comfortable doing it, then pray, and sleep on it. After that I will make a decision. If I have any doubts what so ever, I will more then likely have Dave do it, as he knows what he is doing!
This caterac business has been a humbleing experience, at times humiliating, especailly at my age! God has His reasons!
Thanks again,
Allen
No. 1st off THD is not a useful specification -- it has no correlation with how things sound.
It has so do with things like compressing as it approaches clipping, andhow quickly & gracefully it recovers from clipping. When an amp clips all sorts of chaos occurs. If it recovers quickly gracefully you'll not notice it clip at all, but some amps takesome serious time to become stable again and this can be heard.
dave
THD is just a buzz word?!
So THD is a distraction from what really matters in an amp soundwise, which is:
So in conclusion, if I apply this to my current system. My chip amps clip in a noticeable way at 18 volts or 40 watts. So 40 watts is my peak power, so my baseline is four times less at 10 watts. TubeLab is rated at 15 watts, but may go as loud or louder than the chip amps, becuase it recovers faster and more gracefully from clipping. Does compression help an amp clip more gracefully? Am I getting closer on this?
So THD is a distraction from what really matters in an amp soundwise, which is:
So in conclusion, if I apply this to my current system. My chip amps clip in a noticeable way at 18 volts or 40 watts. So 40 watts is my peak power, so my baseline is four times less at 10 watts. TubeLab is rated at 15 watts, but may go as loud or louder than the chip amps, becuase it recovers faster and more gracefully from clipping. Does compression help an amp clip more gracefully? Am I getting closer on this?
Typical tube amps compress as they approach clipping so seem to play louder as the main signal gets louder and the dynamic peaks are compressed.
Another thing that comes into play is the capability of an amp to, for a very short period, deliver much more than its rated power -- this is for instance how the 20W NAD 3020 was able to sound like it played louder than the original 200W Carver Cube.
dave
Another thing that comes into play is the capability of an amp to, for a very short period, deliver much more than its rated power -- this is for instance how the 20W NAD 3020 was able to sound like it played louder than the original 200W Carver Cube.
dave
Medical Madness
Thank once again all for your patience! I have been in and out of the eye doctors quite a bit lately, and next week, March 15, I am in for retina and caterac surgery, so it has all been worth it! I am exited and scared at the same time!
So... when I am to the "other side" I will take my shot to glue that bessel plate down. Maybe I will build that small DAC too, we will "see"...
Thanks for clarifying that. That explains why it "sounds" like the compressed internet radio music can play louder then my dynamic music. I can see this type of attribute being good driver protection also.
I definately want that attribute! How does the TubeLab perform in this reguards? I looked into that 20W NAD 3020, it is an older sytem, I will need to research if there are any newer or diy options available. Appearently the chip amps do not do well here, although maybe a snubberized PSU will help?
I did the power test found this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...much-voltage-power-do-your-speakers-need.html
It took awhile to find the "right" recording to set the level to, but ended up finding out that my RMS listening voltage is 9.66 volts. So my peak voltage (12dB higher) is 27.53. So... I need about a 100 watt/channel RMS (200 peak) amp to play my music and movies at the loudness I like with the dynamics intact. (I am giving myself the extra additional 3dB of headroom)
So the questions that remain in reguards to those findings are:
A - Will the Alpair 12 be able to handle such power, esp low bass? If not, game over!
B - Will a snubberized PSU give my current chip amps better "peak" performance?
C - If not, can something like the NAD 3020 meet these requirements? The math and Dave's impressions above suggest that this is a possiblity...
D - If not, can I build an amp that sounds atleast as good as the chip amp for reasonable $$$?
Time for some research...
Allen
Thank once again all for your patience! I have been in and out of the eye doctors quite a bit lately, and next week, March 15, I am in for retina and caterac surgery, so it has all been worth it! I am exited and scared at the same time!
So... when I am to the "other side" I will take my shot to glue that bessel plate down. Maybe I will build that small DAC too, we will "see"...
Thanks for clarifying that. That explains why it "sounds" like the compressed internet radio music can play louder then my dynamic music. I can see this type of attribute being good driver protection also.
I definately want that attribute! How does the TubeLab perform in this reguards? I looked into that 20W NAD 3020, it is an older sytem, I will need to research if there are any newer or diy options available. Appearently the chip amps do not do well here, although maybe a snubberized PSU will help?
I did the power test found this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...much-voltage-power-do-your-speakers-need.html
It took awhile to find the "right" recording to set the level to, but ended up finding out that my RMS listening voltage is 9.66 volts. So my peak voltage (12dB higher) is 27.53. So... I need about a 100 watt/channel RMS (200 peak) amp to play my music and movies at the loudness I like with the dynamics intact. (I am giving myself the extra additional 3dB of headroom)
So the questions that remain in reguards to those findings are:
A - Will the Alpair 12 be able to handle such power, esp low bass? If not, game over!
B - Will a snubberized PSU give my current chip amps better "peak" performance?
C - If not, can something like the NAD 3020 meet these requirements? The math and Dave's impressions above suggest that this is a possiblity...
D - If not, can I build an amp that sounds atleast as good as the chip amp for reasonable $$$?
Time for some research...
Allen
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Allen,
All the best for the surgery and wish you a complete and speedy recovery!
I shall say "pass" to all your technical questions, they are too advanced for me.
BTW, my experience with my 5 watt/channel Glow Amp One is that it can drive the Alp 12s to 85+ dB peaks, though I like to listen the mid 70 dB range most of the times. Tubelab PP with beefy output transformers should be able to provide decent SPL and low end authority. I got bogged down on my Tubelab PP build - otherwise would have loved to share some experiences. I shall try again in the coming weeks.
-Zia
All the best for the surgery and wish you a complete and speedy recovery!
I shall say "pass" to all your technical questions, they are too advanced for me
.BTW, my experience with my 5 watt/channel Glow Amp One is that it can drive the Alp 12s to 85+ dB peaks, though I like to listen the mid 70 dB range most of the times. Tubelab PP with beefy output transformers should be able to provide decent SPL and low end authority. I got bogged down on my Tubelab PP build
- otherwise would have loved to share some experiences. I shall try again in the coming weeks.-Zia
I can see!
The surgery was a success, and I am starting to get back into my life anew. Everyday, on many occasions I look for my old glasses that I no longer need and lose the reading glasses I do need! It is pretty cool to see that trees actually have branches, birds have feathers and a shower is individual drops of water. I can actually see myself in the shower, which I am not pointing out to be weird, near-sighted people with glasses do not have that luxery. Swimming this summer is going to be a real treat. The biggest blessing is night time driving. My eye is still very light sensitive as that is part of the healing process, and sometimes I am distacted by the black mist frame outline around my feild of vision which is from the laser treatment. The doctor claims that may never heal, but I see it getting better everyday so... I still have a bigger feild of vision then I ever did with glasses.
Okay, I did some research on amps. I found a good article on Rod Elliott's website:
Amplifier Sound - What Are The Influences?
It explains quite well the clipping behavior of diferent amps: tube -vs- class AB -vs- chipamp. Chipamp does not clip well at all! (more on this below - discovery #6).
So armed with this new imformation, I am thinking of building a 150 watt class AB amp or going with a 60 watt tube amp. I prefer clip free sound if the Alpair 12s can handle it, so the 150 watt amp being developed by diyaudio is my first choice:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/192431-diyab-amp-class-ab-amp-diyaudio.html
I would consider the 60 watt tube amp more for the way it clips for driver protection if indeed the Alpair 12s can not handle 150 watt peaks.
Just for the fun of it, I built a "quicky" box with a volume of .75 cubic feet to see what I thought of Alpair 12 as a monitor type of sound. This was a sealed system using both the denim product and some "fluff" inside, so not too complicated. I compaired this to Avebury.
All in all, from a mid-range and treble point of veiw, the sound was 98% identical: on one song, I noticed the piano had a little more "intimatcy" to it in the Avebury cabinet?!? So I know for sure my diffusor blocks helps, esp considering Avebury has a much smaller volume behind the driver itself. But the surprising thing about this, is the Avebury does not sacrifice any of its mid-range or treble ability to produce its bass. And if I have not mentioned this before, Avebury is not shy about its bass! Of course Avebury puts the "quicky" box system to shame in the bass area. The thing that surprised me most about this comparison is that Alpair 12 was working equally as hard in both cabinets. In other words, Alpair 12 moved just as much to produce minimal bass in the "quicky" cabinet as it did to produce significant amounts of, at times felt, bass in Avebury. So, if you like the sound of Alpair 12, you will Love the bass extention of Avebury, even with the some of the cavets of room placement etc. I am really glad I built this cabinet for Alpair 12. I am sure the pensil and monitor cabinets have more bass the my "quicky" box, that is a given, but if you want full, fulfilling bass, build Avebury! I built the "quicky" sealed box becuase this is what I would have built in spherical form if I was to go with the spherical monitors with subwoofers. After this test, I do not see any point going that route...
Discovery #6
Which brings us now to "clipping". After seeing the charts Elliot has in his article about clipping, it was very apparent that I do not want my chip amps to clip at all! That means I have 40 watts PEAK. I drew a line on the VU meter on my computer where a 120 Hz tone outputs 18 volts. I listened to my system, making sure the peaks would not go over this line. For dynamic music, I found this level too low, but I already knew that. But what I did find, was that the music, esp vocals, sounded smoother. In some of my earlier posts, I mention hearing "grain" esp from my Pioneer laser disc player. I decided to hook it up thru the T.V. pre amp. I found I had to play this a little lower, as it was more dynamic still, but there was more subleties to listen to aswell. I listened to all my pathetic DAC's and in the end, prefered the Pioneer. So now I am eager to finally get my Light Speed done! I just could not justify it earlier, as the quiet, compressed sounding Realtek audio was sounding the smoothest and loudest, eventhough it is dead as #$%@! At this point, when I am listening to something, I can tell when it is too loud, becuase the grain steps right in! The more dynamic, the worse it is, the lower I need to play. That is hard to do when I am getting into it! The 150 watt/ch amp will do much better. Better yet would be a 150 watt/ch tube amp, but I am not willing to remorgage the house to buy or build that one! As for the 40 watt/ch chipamps, they sound excellent with-in their ability. They would be suited for a higher efficentcy system or multi-way amped system... a future project! What I really learned from this discovery is that I have been clipping amps all my life. I have always wondered why the sound lost its "essence" at louder levels - the amp losses its ability to produce details and creates "grain" instead. Insightful discovery
So, when all is said and done, it is safe to say that I have not really heard the Avebury system at its full potential yet!
Time to get back into this!
Allen
The surgery was a success, and I am starting to get back into my life anew. Everyday, on many occasions I look for my old glasses that I no longer need and lose the reading glasses I do need! It is pretty cool to see that trees actually have branches, birds have feathers and a shower is individual drops of water. I can actually see myself in the shower, which I am not pointing out to be weird, near-sighted people with glasses do not have that luxery. Swimming this summer is going to be a real treat. The biggest blessing is night time driving. My eye is still very light sensitive as that is part of the healing process, and sometimes I am distacted by the black mist frame outline around my feild of vision which is from the laser treatment. The doctor claims that may never heal, but I see it getting better everyday so... I still have a bigger feild of vision then I ever did with glasses.
Okay, I did some research on amps. I found a good article on Rod Elliott's website:
Amplifier Sound - What Are The Influences?
It explains quite well the clipping behavior of diferent amps: tube -vs- class AB -vs- chipamp. Chipamp does not clip well at all! (more on this below - discovery #6).
So armed with this new imformation, I am thinking of building a 150 watt class AB amp or going with a 60 watt tube amp. I prefer clip free sound if the Alpair 12s can handle it, so the 150 watt amp being developed by diyaudio is my first choice:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/192431-diyab-amp-class-ab-amp-diyaudio.html
I would consider the 60 watt tube amp more for the way it clips for driver protection if indeed the Alpair 12s can not handle 150 watt peaks.
Just for the fun of it, I built a "quicky" box with a volume of .75 cubic feet to see what I thought of Alpair 12 as a monitor type of sound. This was a sealed system using both the denim product and some "fluff" inside, so not too complicated. I compaired this to Avebury.
All in all, from a mid-range and treble point of veiw, the sound was 98% identical: on one song, I noticed the piano had a little more "intimatcy" to it in the Avebury cabinet?!? So I know for sure my diffusor blocks helps, esp considering Avebury has a much smaller volume behind the driver itself. But the surprising thing about this, is the Avebury does not sacrifice any of its mid-range or treble ability to produce its bass. And if I have not mentioned this before, Avebury is not shy about its bass! Of course Avebury puts the "quicky" box system to shame in the bass area. The thing that surprised me most about this comparison is that Alpair 12 was working equally as hard in both cabinets. In other words, Alpair 12 moved just as much to produce minimal bass in the "quicky" cabinet as it did to produce significant amounts of, at times felt, bass in Avebury. So, if you like the sound of Alpair 12, you will Love the bass extention of Avebury, even with the some of the cavets of room placement etc. I am really glad I built this cabinet for Alpair 12. I am sure the pensil and monitor cabinets have more bass the my "quicky" box, that is a given, but if you want full, fulfilling bass, build Avebury! I built the "quicky" sealed box becuase this is what I would have built in spherical form if I was to go with the spherical monitors with subwoofers. After this test, I do not see any point going that route...
Discovery #6
Which brings us now to "clipping". After seeing the charts Elliot has in his article about clipping, it was very apparent that I do not want my chip amps to clip at all! That means I have 40 watts PEAK. I drew a line on the VU meter on my computer where a 120 Hz tone outputs 18 volts. I listened to my system, making sure the peaks would not go over this line. For dynamic music, I found this level too low, but I already knew that. But what I did find, was that the music, esp vocals, sounded smoother. In some of my earlier posts, I mention hearing "grain" esp from my Pioneer laser disc player. I decided to hook it up thru the T.V. pre amp. I found I had to play this a little lower, as it was more dynamic still, but there was more subleties to listen to aswell. I listened to all my pathetic DAC's and in the end, prefered the Pioneer. So now I am eager to finally get my Light Speed done! I just could not justify it earlier, as the quiet, compressed sounding Realtek audio was sounding the smoothest and loudest, eventhough it is dead as #$%@! At this point, when I am listening to something, I can tell when it is too loud, becuase the grain steps right in! The more dynamic, the worse it is, the lower I need to play. That is hard to do when I am getting into it! The 150 watt/ch amp will do much better. Better yet would be a 150 watt/ch tube amp, but I am not willing to remorgage the house to buy or build that one! As for the 40 watt/ch chipamps, they sound excellent with-in their ability. They would be suited for a higher efficentcy system or multi-way amped system... a future project! What I really learned from this discovery is that I have been clipping amps all my life. I have always wondered why the sound lost its "essence" at louder levels - the amp losses its ability to produce details and creates "grain" instead. Insightful discovery
So, when all is said and done, it is safe to say that I have not really heard the Avebury system at its full potential yet!
Time to get back into this!
Allen
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