These EV midbass horns (altec a5 sized front horn) have a bit of boost to get there (not on floor), but crossed at 150hz and ?
Thats an ev hp640 on top. I'll get back to you on the mid-bass horns (size and model) ..........
Norman,
The orange and white JBL logo on the 2380 HF horn should tell you it is not an EV HP640, but if that is not enough, the size is not right, the HP640 is 28" x 14".
I don't recall EV making a midbass horn like in DJK's system, but he could set you straight.
Art
Yup, you are right, on both accounts. I was going on memory on the hf horn, which contradicts the picture.
"The new system (has been upgraded to EV HP640 HF horns since this photo was taken)."
and
"About this time I made a smaller single 12 version of my mid horn. It was the same size as an A7/4560 horn flare without the big box. At 30" X 20" X 24" overall it was about as big as people were now willing to put up with. These were made from fiberglass and very lightweight.I think I made about 30 of these. The EV HP640 was a perfect match for the high end.Singles were crossed at 250hz and duals at 150hz. The HF was crossed at 1.2Khz with a 2" or 1.6Khz with a 1" driver."
and
"The square mouth is bad.
I built some similar to this and got a big peak from the square dimension. When I changed to a 30 X 20 (same size as an A7 horn) mouth instead of the 24 X 24 (roughly the same area) it sounded vastly better."
Norman
"The new system (has been upgraded to EV HP640 HF horns since this photo was taken)."
and
"About this time I made a smaller single 12 version of my mid horn. It was the same size as an A7/4560 horn flare without the big box. At 30" X 20" X 24" overall it was about as big as people were now willing to put up with. These were made from fiberglass and very lightweight.I think I made about 30 of these. The EV HP640 was a perfect match for the high end.Singles were crossed at 250hz and duals at 150hz. The HF was crossed at 1.2Khz with a 2" or 1.6Khz with a 1" driver."
and
"The square mouth is bad.
I built some similar to this and got a big peak from the square dimension. When I changed to a 30 X 20 (same size as an A7 horn) mouth instead of the 24 X 24 (roughly the same area) it sounded vastly better."
Norman
midbass horn is 30" wide x 40" tall x 24" deep. Not sure if horn is 24" deep or the total horn + enclosed driver. It needs a little boost to get to the crossover point of 150hz.
Super impressive. 4 x dual 15's push pull subs, 6th order boosted for 35hz.
Subs should not be hanging down like that though.
JBL CMCD Tech. Note
Suspect this is what you are looking for:
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/CMCD_TechNote.pdf
Regards,
WHG
Suspect this is what you are looking for:
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/CMCD_TechNote.pdf
Regards,
WHG
Based on this thread, I rolled the dice and picked up a pair of 2169Hs (the dealer was out of stock on the phase plug and gasket but has me on notice for when they come in, apparently JBL is out of stock too). You wouldn't happen to have any pictures of what it looks like would you?
I am going to compare these to the Faital M5N80-12s I have that JLH had one suggested in this application and if I can get around to building a back enclosure, I have FANE Studio 8Ms as well. All will be used on my 140hz LeCleach horns with 4" throat.
I have a lot of drivers and horns to measure. I have the gear, but have actually never measured anything before, so I am sorting out the devil in the details with setup. Then once I figure it all out, I am going to measure these horns with these drivers. About the best I can do is measure in my mid-sized backyard.
I am going to compare these to the Faital M5N80-12s I have that JLH had one suggested in this application and if I can get around to building a back enclosure, I have FANE Studio 8Ms as well. All will be used on my 140hz LeCleach horns with 4" throat.
I have a lot of drivers and horns to measure. I have the gear, but have actually never measured anything before, so I am sorting out the devil in the details with setup. Then once I figure it all out, I am going to measure these horns with these drivers. About the best I can do is measure in my mid-sized backyard.
here's Bill Woods' 70Hz horn - a sim in hornresp indicates a number of notches which didn't show in his measurement - does that mean this type of horn layout sometime acts with less offset action than the prediction?
-WHG hey Bill - how would you do the reflector(s) in this horn? I'd like to try 12pe32 but for some reason RCA-Fan suggested 80g mms or higher despite suggesting EV12L and one RCF
horn dimensions
Bill Wood's graph of the 70Hz horn w. D120 vs his K-slot BLH
hornresp input with Kappa12A
hornresp prediction of the 70Hz horn with Kappa12A using offset driver
prediction no offset
hornresp schematic
offset model 60Hz 2pi efficiency with Kappa12A
-WHG hey Bill - how would you do the reflector(s) in this horn? I'd like to try 12pe32 but for some reason RCA-Fan suggested 80g mms or higher despite suggesting EV12L and one RCF
horn dimensions
Bill Wood's graph of the 70Hz horn w. D120 vs his K-slot BLH
hornresp input with Kappa12A
hornresp prediction of the 70Hz horn with Kappa12A using offset driver
prediction no offset
hornresp schematic
offset model 60Hz 2pi efficiency with Kappa12A
Freddyi, I think I saw RCA-fan mention the 12pe32 for that horn a couple times. I don't know about the offset, I am only just learning hornresp. You might ask Bill.
he seemed to think it was too much a midrange driver - I have one and its good in a Karlson 12
its interesting to switch from my Large Advent to the little Karlson with 12pe32
its interesting to switch from my Large Advent to the little Karlson with 12pe32
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The 12pe32 is also refernced in inlowsound for a diy 100hz horn (32" deep).
"The drum transients and rim shots are SNAPPY; no other mid bass horn I've fabricated can match it's response."
Interesting it really fell off at its horn mass corner around 600hz, just like the sim. Darn it, I wanted to cross it at 1,000 or 1,200hz. Some squish in the throat should push the freq response higher.
http://inlowsound.weebly.com/diy-100hz-midbass-horn.html
Maybe a pair or 4 of 8" b&c 8pe21 with mass corner around 900hz. I'd like to see a decade of response (100hz - 1,000hz). Oops, I said this in post 49 back in January.
Norman
"The drum transients and rim shots are SNAPPY; no other mid bass horn I've fabricated can match it's response."
Interesting it really fell off at its horn mass corner around 600hz, just like the sim. Darn it, I wanted to cross it at 1,000 or 1,200hz. Some squish in the throat should push the freq response higher.
http://inlowsound.weebly.com/diy-100hz-midbass-horn.html
Maybe a pair or 4 of 8" b&c 8pe21 with mass corner around 900hz. I'd like to see a decade of response (100hz - 1,000hz). Oops, I said this in post 49 back in January.
Norman
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Snappy perhaps, but not punchy. The only 12" that I have found models good down to 80Hz in hornresp is Hentai's DIY field coils. I would love to try them out, but $$$ so I have to save up.
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punchy bass. Usually linked to db output. Or simple 2nd order harmonic distortion. Or a time aligned speaker.
I had a W-bin that presented bass impact better than 4x15's crossed at 100hz to 4x18's. Don't know if it was the 7ft2 of horn mouth or the lack of a crossover at 100hz. But you had to be over 10' away from the W-bin before 100hz would develop.
I had a W-bin that presented bass impact better than 4x15's crossed at 100hz to 4x18's. Don't know if it was the 7ft2 of horn mouth or the lack of a crossover at 100hz. But you had to be over 10' away from the W-bin before 100hz would develop.
Interesting thoughts! It sounds like it's definitely a difficult task aiming for that all-important 100-1000 decade. That was part of the reason I started to look at a higher low-end roll-off and see what the subs could do.
However, after looking back through this thread numerous times, I'm going to build a pair of Bill Fitzmaurice's DR200 speakers. They're a full-range bifurcated horn + tweeter array design that match the size of the T18 subs fairly closely. In the designs, he mentions that they can be crossed from anywhere between 80-120Hz.
Seeing as he designed both speakers, I might as well keep it in the family! 🙂
Bill Fitzmaurice DR200
However, after looking back through this thread numerous times, I'm going to build a pair of Bill Fitzmaurice's DR200 speakers. They're a full-range bifurcated horn + tweeter array design that match the size of the T18 subs fairly closely. In the designs, he mentions that they can be crossed from anywhere between 80-120Hz.
Seeing as he designed both speakers, I might as well keep it in the family! 🙂
Bill Fitzmaurice DR200
although less sensitive, little Karlson 12 sounds more focused and punchier than my FH1 system and the K will take 200W peaks on drums without exceeding 3mm xmax. My K-horns with flexy house walls are unlistenable and have sat idle for years - terrible. My EV Sentry might make some sort of funky horn system. I can almost always do better than horns with Karlson.
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Snappy as in a fast woofer which does not reach 80Hz. Punchy as in one that does. 😛
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mid-bass punch
From my perspective, mid-bass is the range of (about) 60-300Hz. Within this range contains the "punch" factor. It has also been my experience [that] this is the most difficult to get "right" in a speaker system.
I do realize there is often consideration for a 100-1000Hz decade in a multi-way horn system. Different strokes for folks, I suppose, and I have read some convincing arguments for the case, but I personally would never cross-over smack dab in the middle of the mid-range.
From my perspective, mid-bass is the range of (about) 60-300Hz. Within this range contains the "punch" factor. It has also been my experience [that] this is the most difficult to get "right" in a speaker system.
I do realize there is often consideration for a 100-1000Hz decade in a multi-way horn system. Different strokes for folks, I suppose, and I have read some convincing arguments for the case, but I personally would never cross-over smack dab in the middle of the mid-range.
Fred, your fh1 ? Doesn't it roll at 150hz ? The gain from 80hz-250hz in the karlson must add punch, especially on instruments.
Scott, you are onto something. Playing with full range drivers, I didn't like 150hz crossover point (or over that either with 24db), but 100hz was ok to me. That's why I'd like to try a flat to 100hz horn crossed at 750-1,000hz.
Hearing the system 20db below its potential in post #584, I'm not as opposed to 150hz crossover. If my big ppsl sub is done this month, I'll try crossing that to my avatar at 150hz (where the silver flute is rolling). That 8" (tried in a ppsl lascala) seems to have a Qts of .23, but I don't believe the Fs=30hz, 50hz I'd believe.
If I'm lucky, I'll get to borrow those mid bass horns in post 584, but even on the floor, I don't think the 20" horn length will be enough.
Big 3 ways can punch, with crossover points around 250. My double 15/horn has slam and has F3 around 40hz. M&K theater preferred his double 15/horn not crossed at 80hz.
Norman
Scott, you are onto something. Playing with full range drivers, I didn't like 150hz crossover point (or over that either with 24db), but 100hz was ok to me. That's why I'd like to try a flat to 100hz horn crossed at 750-1,000hz.
Hearing the system 20db below its potential in post #584, I'm not as opposed to 150hz crossover. If my big ppsl sub is done this month, I'll try crossing that to my avatar at 150hz (where the silver flute is rolling). That 8" (tried in a ppsl lascala) seems to have a Qts of .23, but I don't believe the Fs=30hz, 50hz I'd believe.
If I'm lucky, I'll get to borrow those mid bass horns in post 584, but even on the floor, I don't think the 20" horn length will be enough.
Big 3 ways can punch, with crossover points around 250. My double 15/horn has slam and has F3 around 40hz. M&K theater preferred his double 15/horn not crossed at 80hz.
Norman
are those some of DJK's old horns in post 584?
I once bi-amped two 18" RJ vent reflex to FH1 and used Peavey's big horn on top - one old dilapidated Karlson
box with an Altec horn on top had more life.
here's a couple of my toys graphed outdoors
FH1 outdoors - blue = mic on ground 6ft back, green = mic at md cabinet height/30 degrees off axis
100Hz Edgarhorns - -~20" path from 80sq.in. throat to ~20"x20" mouth
sine spectrum on K43, 2220H had 10dB more distortion driven this way
I once bi-amped two 18" RJ vent reflex to FH1 and used Peavey's big horn on top - one old dilapidated Karlson
box with an Altec horn on top had more life.
here's a couple of my toys graphed outdoors
FH1 outdoors - blue = mic on ground 6ft back, green = mic at md cabinet height/30 degrees off axis
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
100Hz Edgarhorns - -~20" path from 80sq.in. throat to ~20"x20" mouth
sine spectrum on K43, 2220H had 10dB more distortion driven this way
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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the 100hz edgars seem to roll at 200hz but look pretty flat otherwise. 20" path, 200hz. The fh1 seems a bit jagged past 400hz.
nope, post 584 were built this year. 2x12 in a single cab.
nope, post 584 were built this year. 2x12 in a single cab.
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